58 replies to this topic

[Zartonk]

Azad (from Persian)

In the context of Persian and Armenian, certain words are so antique that they are not concidered loanwords, but the evolutions (or as we see in this case the unchanged concurences) of a common ancestral word. Granted, Armenian posesses more genuine loanwords from Persian and other Iranian languages than any other, but we have to keep in mind the close proximity of the two tongues

As a matter of fact, Armenian borrowed so many Iranian phrases that in the early days of linguistics, it was grouped as an Iranian language in the the Indo-Iranian family of the "Indo-German" languages.

[Zartonk]

Azad (from Persian)

In the context of Persian and Armenian, certain words are so antique that they are not concidered loanwords, but the evolutions (or as we see in this case the unchanged concurences) of a common ancestral word. Granted, Armenian posesses more genuine loanwords from Persian and other Iranian languages than any other, but we have to keep in mind the close proximity of the two tongues

As a matter of fact, Armenian borrowed so many Iranian phrases that in the early days of linguistics, it was grouped as an Iranian language in the the Indo-Iranian family of the "Indo-German" tree.

EDIT: Sorry mods...

Edited by Zartonk, 31 July 2006 - 03:44 PM.

[Dave]

Nairi, here's another definition of loanword.

loanword (n.) : a word borrowed from another language; e.g. `blitz' is a German word borrowed into modern English

"Blitz" is a word that was completely integrated into the English language. "Yallah", "satil", and "zibil" were never officially integrated into our language thanks to our linguists, especially the Armenian monks of St. Lazare island in Italy, who worked day and night to keep the language clean.

Our language has tremendous malleabilty. Thanks to it, our Armenian language didn't suffer the fate of Farsi, which took in hundreds/thousands of Turkish/Arabic/other words...

[nairi]

"Blitz" is a word that was completely integrated into the English language.

That's because the English are not afraid of so-called pollution. They take advantage of every loanword and make it a synonym of an already existing word.

I'm neither sure what you mean by officially, nor by clean. For your information, the Armenian we speak today is not the same as the Armenian that was spoken in the days that Mesrop decided to invent an alphabet for us. I'm sure you know this.

Interestingly, all of your listed words, yalla, satil, and zibil, have entries in my Soviet Armenian Dictionary.

Our language has tremendous malleabilty. Thanks to it, our Armenian language didn't suffer the fate of Farsi, which took in hundreds/thousands of Turkish/Arabic/other words...

You must be kidding yourself.

[Dave]

I wonder how the Armenian language would have sounded like if so many foreign (Turkish, Arabic, French, Russian, etc.) were officialized.

The English had no choice but to accept foreign (Greek, Latin, French, etc.) words as they were mere barbarians. Things like astrology, geography, etc were so foreign to them that they had no choice but to take in Greek and Latin words.

the Armenian we speak today is not the same as the Armenian that was spoken in the days that Mesrop decided to invent an alphabet for us

Yes, but Armenian linguists of the Armenian cultural revival of the 19th century refined the language to make it more practical, and to encourage all Armenians to learn it. They didn't do it by adding foreign words.

Interestingly, all of your listed words, yalla, satil, and zibil, have entries in my Soviet Armenian Dictionary.

The word "Soviet" is key here.

[nairi]

I wonder how the Armenian language would have sounded like if so many foreign (Turkish, Arabic, French, Russian, etc.) were officialized.

Once again, what do you mean by officialized?

The English had no choice but to accept foreign (Greek, Latin, French, etc.) words as they were mere barbarians. Things like astrology, geography, etc were so foreign to them that they had no choice but to take in Greek and Latin words.

Armenians did too, my friend. Think pilosopa. And if they didn't borrow directly, they translated it to Armenian, including words that the English have invented with Greek and Latin words. Think herakhos.

Yes, but Armenian linguists of the Armenian cultural revival of the 19th century refined the language to make it more practical, and to encourage all Armenians to learn it. They didn't do it by adding foreign words.

The foreign words were already there and they weren't stopping our greatest authors from using them in their literary works. Not to mention, of course, the people.

The word "Soviet" is key here.

This dictionary is descriptive in nature and rightfully so. In other words, it shows how language is used in real life, rather than in someone's imagined head. If people use zibil, then a dictionary should list it, albeit with a label like colloquial, dialectal, Turkish, etc.. This Soviet dictionary was definitely on its way. We should pick up from there.

[Armenak]

Armenians did too, my friend. Think pilosopa. And if they didn't borrow directly, they translated it to Armenian, including words that the English have invented with Greek and Latin words. Think herakhos.

Yes. And let's not forget the names of the month as well as "Armenian" names we give our children, like Bedros, Boghos, Stepanos, etc.

[Dave]

Once again, what do you mean by officialized?

Integrated into the language as a normal word (equal to Armenian words).

Armenians did too, my friend.

Not to the extent of other languages of Europe. If the Armenian language didn't have a great malleability, it wouldn't even have been able to translate foreign words and naturalize them, not to mention create new words.

The foreign words were already there and they weren't stopping our greatest authors from using them in their literary works. Not to mention, of course, the people.

The people were mostly uneducated, and they were using Turkish because of Ottoman oppression and restrictions. Our authors use those words in certain situations, such as to authentically reproduce a conversation between villagers.

How do you think our language would have developped if we were a sovereign nation throughout history? How do you think our language would have sounded like if there was no Armenian diaspora created after the genocide?

This dictionary is descriptive in nature and rightfully so. In other words, it shows how language is used in real life, rather than in someone's imagined head. If people use zibil, then a dictionary should list it, albeit with a label like colloquial, dialectal, Turkish, etc.. This Soviet dictionary was definitely on its way. We should pick up from there.

Why should we proudly carry Turkish influence and words in our own everyday language? If one wants to verify the definition of Turkish words, he should simply use a Turkish dictionary. Same thing for Russian, French,... This "people's dictionary" doesn't sound like a serious tool to help in our Armenian writings.

[nairi]

Integrated into the language as a normal word (equal to Armenian words).

Can you give an example of what you consider a loanword that has been officialized into Armenian?

Not to the extent of other languages of Europe. If the Armenian language didn't have a great malleability, it wouldn't even have been able to translate foreign words and naturalize them, not to mention create new words.

You're truly fantasizing.

The people were mostly uneducated, and they were using Turkish because of Ottoman oppression and restrictions. Our authors use those words in certain situations, such as to authentically reproduce a conversation between villagers.

They also use them outside of conversations.

How do you think our language would have developped if we were a sovereign nation throughout history? How do you think our language would have sounded like if there was no Armenian diaspora created after the genocide?

I don't know and neither do you.

Why should we proudly carry Turkish influence and words in our own everyday language? If one wants to verify the definition of Turkish words, he should simply use a Turkish dictionary. Same thing for Russian, French,... This "people's dictionary" doesn't sound like a serious tool to help in our Armenian writings.

These words are part of our language because people use them. The roots of these words are not Armenian, hence they are called loanwords. Many people don't know that these words are loanwords. Therefore they would not know in which foreign dictionary to look it up. Not to mention that not everyone who uses a loanword can read and write in the loanword's language to look it up in the dictionary. A loanword is a loanword because it is used within the framework of the language.

No, the Soviet Armenian dictionary was absolutely on its way. Just as you find Blitz in an English dictionary, why should you not find zibil (widely used by East and West Armenians) in an Armenian dictionary? Because, if I'm reading an Armenian novel and I come across "zibil" and I have no idea what it means or whether it's a native Armenian word or not, I want to be able to find it in an Armenian dictionary. Otherwise I'd have to go through my Turkish, Arabic, Russian, Persian, Indian, Zulu, to then find out that "zibil" is a loanword in all these languages and therefore not entered in any of their dictionaries. See how ridiculous your proposition sounds? Leave people alone, I say. Give them all the tools available and let them choose. They will anyway.

[Dave]

Can you give an example of what you consider a loanword that has been officialized into Armenian?

Reread my first post in this thread.

They also use them outside of conversations.

Sure..

About "zibil" and other foreign words... In most texts I've read, these words are written italicized. If such a word is used in an Armenian novel, usually they'd have it written in the back or on the bottom of the page that it's a foreign word, and it's meaning. That doesn't mean that they should be written in Armenian dictionaries, simply because they aren't Armenian words and were never integrated into our language's vocabulary.

That Soviet Armenian dictionary must be the only Armenian dictionary which features foreign words in its pages. All other dictionaries I've seen don't do it.

The most I could tolerate in an Armenian dictionary is for it to show these words in a separate section far from the Armenian words, under the title "trash can".

Edited by Dave, 01 August 2006 - 09:09 AM.

[nairi]

About "zibil" and other foreign words... In most texts I've read, these words are written italicized. If such a word is used in an Armenian novel, usually they'd have it written in the back or on the bottom of the page that it's a foreign word, and it's meaning. That doesn't mean that they should be written in Armenian dictionaries, simply because they aren't Armenian words and were never integrated into our language's vocabulary.

I'm talking about words that have become part of the Armenian language. They are usually neither italicized, nor footnoted. Neither is zibil. I have never seen it being treated as a word that most Armenians would not understand.

That Soviet Armenian dictionary must be the only Armenian dictionary which features foreign words in its pages. All other dictionaries I've seen don't do it.

They are not foreign in the sense that enough people use them or have used them over a long period of time. No, a word like "belastingsdienst" will not be part of any Armenian dictionary (yet), because not enough people use it or have used it for a long period of time.

Zibil, on the other hand, is a word that many Armenians use regularly and have been for a long time. It's a loanword. There are many more like that, such as telefon, televizion, radio, film, khndzor, dolma, kartofil, kompyuter. Get used to it. They're not going to go away until they become obsolete, and that may take much longer than you wish. And as long as they are used by so many people, they should be listed in any concise or comprehensive Armenian dictionary. A dictionary is meant to be a reference work in which you can look up words that you don't know. A dictionary is not a schoolbook that you read from beginning to end and learn by heart.

Perhaps what is really missing among Armenians is a thesaurus. Though a dictionary can do enough by listing synonyms and antonyms, a thesaurus is handier. Perhaps you should work on that. Any writer should have a thesaurus at hand.

The most I could tolerate in an Armenian dictionary is for it to show these words in a separate section far from the Armenian words, under the title "trash can".

When Mesrop invented the alphabet, Armenian was already fully contaminated. From your perspective, Armenian is one big foreign, and therefore unwanted, word. If you can come up with a single native word that is not derived from Indo-European or any other language, I may speak to you again on this topic. Until then get used to the fact that a language does not necessarily need to die out or lose appeal just because it is lenient with loanwords. Once again, take English as an example. Practically the entire literate world knows of the existence of English. The language is more alive and versatile than ever.

[Dave]

Once again, take English as an example. Practically the entire literate world knows of the existence of English. The language is more alive and versatile than ever.

English is dominant not because of its "versatile" character, but because the domination of the British empire.

Zibil, on the other hand, is a word that many Armenians use regularly and have been for a long time. It's a loanword. There are many more like that, such as telefon, televizion, radio, film, khndzor, dolma, kartofil, kompyuter. Get used to it. They're not going to go away until they become obsolete, and that may take much longer than you wish. And as long as they are used by so many people, they should be listed in any concise or comprehensive Armenian dictionary. A dictionary is meant to be a reference work in which you can look up words that you don't know. A dictionary is not a schoolbook that you read from beginning to end and learn by heart.

The Armenian for computer is "hamagarkich", the Armenian for telephone is "heratsayn" or "herakhos", etc. All or most of these foreign words are symbols of assimilation in my opinion, and we can't get them in our dictionaries.

The words are foreign in a sense that not all Armenians use it. The Armenians of Armenia use some Russian words in their language, while the Armenians of the Middle East do not. So they aren't really loanwords, because not everyone uses them.

Foreign words will never become obsolete in our language if we integrate them into our dictionaries. Our language cannot suffer the fate of languages like Farsi, which took in thousands of Arabic and Turkish words.

[nairi]

English is dominant not because of its "versatile" character, but because the domination of the British empire.

It also has the largest vocabulary in the world.

The words are foreign in a sense that not all Armenians use it.

Everyone has a unique vocabulary. It's about the percentage of people who use it and the length of time it has been in a language, among many other criteria you could apply if you would observe how loanwords have entered into any language in the past.

Foreign words will never become obsolete in our language if we integrate them into our dictionaries. Our language cannot suffer the fate of languages like Farsi, which took in thousands of Arabic and Turkish words.

When I hear Farsi, I recognize it as Farsi. When I hear Armenian with loandwords or foreign words, I recognize it as Armenian. I hope you can tell the difference between these two languages: "Hamburger em uzum" and "I like giraffes."

This conversation is endless. You're a purist and I'm not so worried about loanwords or foreign words entering our language or any other. Neither do I mind people who use words that they think are "pure" Armenian. All I will say is that for any word to catch on, it needs to be used first. In other words, you can scream as much as you like at the top of your lungs that we should use this word instead of that, but as long as YOU do not use it, you should not expect of others to do so for you.

[Dave]

I'm not talking about food like hamburger that is known as "hamburger" in the whole world. I'm talking about words that have penetrated into popular language (slang), even thought their purely Armenian equivalents exist.

Who said that I do not use Armenian words? I don't know about you but I don't litter my language with foreign words if they are unneeded.

[Harut]

մի քիչ պիոներական տոն ունի... համենայն դեպս...

===========================

ԽՈՍԵ՞ՆՔ ՀԱՅԵՐԵՆ

«Հելանք», «լյոքշա», «նապրիմեր», «սլուչայնի եղավ»: Ահա այդ եւ նմանատիպ ժարգոնային բառերով է ողողված այսօրվա երիտասարդների բառապաշարը:

Շատերը ժարգոնով խոսելով փորձում են առանձնանալ մյուսներից: Հայերեն խոսող մարդկանց հաճախ չենք էլ հասկանում, քանի որ նրանց խոսքի մեծ մասը ողողված է ժարգոնով: Ժարգոնը հիմնականում հատուկ է տղաներին: Փողոցում գրեթե չենք հանդիպի տղաների, որոնք չեն կիրառում ժարգոնն իրենց խոսքում:

Հարցին, թե ինչո՞ւ են խոսում ժարգոնով, տղաներից մեկը պատասխանեց այսպես.

- Հիմա մոդա է այդպես խոսելը, «լավ տղերքը» ժարգոնով են խոսում, եթե այն չես կիրառում, խոսքը կարծես տեղին չի հնչում: ( Արա, 17 տ.)

15 ամյա մի տղա էլ չկարողացավ բացատրել, թե ինչու է ժարգոնով խոսում:

Հարցի պատասխանները նմանատիպ էին: Ինչեւէ, գիտակցելով իրենց սխալը, նրանք այլեւս չեն կարողանում հրաժարվել նման խոսելաձեւից: Որոշ չափով լսելի է տղաների այդպիսի խոսքը, ինչը չի կարելի ասել աղջիկների մասին: Վերջիններս չգիտակցելով խոսում են ժարգոնով եւ արդյունքում կորցնում կանացիությունն ու գեղեցկությունը:

Այդ ամենի պատճառը գալիս է բառապաշարի պակասից:

Ժարգոն օգտագործողներն արդյոք չգիտե՞ն, որ այն հատուկ է ապադասակարգայնացած տարրերին, ասել է թե գողերին, խաղամոլներին: Այսինքն չգիտակցելով հետեւանքները` փորձում են իրենց խոսքով նմանվել նրանց:

Ժարգոնին զուգահեռ երիտասարդները կիրառում են օտար բառեր`«սլուչայնի եղավ», «նապրիմեր», «նակազատ» եւ այլն: Ինչեւէ, գնահատելի է մի քանի լեզվի տիրապետելը, բայց ոչ այն կիրառելը մայրենի լեզվում:

Խոսքը գեղեցիկ է, եթե այն զուրկ է նման բառակապակցություններից, անհարկի կրկնություններից, «ուրեմն», «մի խոսքով», «այսպես ասած», «գիտես», «հասկացար» եւ այլն:

Ուրեմն որքան խուսափենք նման արտահայտություններից, այնքան մեր խոսքը կհնչի հայերեն, հասկանալի ու կիրթ:

ԳԱՅԱՆԵ ԲՈՒՆԻԱԹՅԱՆ

http://www.azg.am/?l...&num=2006080916

[nairi]

Jargon, which is not an Armenian word, is better known as "technical terminology," such as the specialist words or phrases you hear in different professions, e.g. Prunus armeniaca for apricot.

What these youngsters are doing in Armenia may better be described as "code-switching." Code-switching is not so uncommon among bilingual people.

Of course there is a factor of coolness involved. Some words or expressions are cooler, especially if they belong to a dominant language which the users find cooler than their own. It's a phenomenon that has been creeping into the Dutch language as well, especially with English words and phrases, like "great", "see you", "nice", and a range of swearwords which you can guess. Seen that what English is for Holland Russian is for Armenia, it may not come as a surprise that not only youngsters, but also adults, may prefer to choose Russian words over Armenians ones, even if they know the Armenian equivalent.

[nairi]

Found it on this site: http://www.kottke.or...l-conversations

Steve Ivy says:

I spent several years in Europe, working with a friend with a very multi-cultural background. He's Armenian, born in Lebanon, was raised mostly in Cyprus, went to both English and French schools while there, and married a German.

He's very adept at languages, and as of last count, speaks Armenian, Arabic, Turkish, Greek, French, English, and German at least conversationally, if not fluently. His parents settled in Quebec, and I had the opportunity to overhear several calls home.

He, his siblings, and his parents would switch back and forth between Armenian, Arabic, English, and French mostly, in a single conversation. He explained that it usually had to do with whatever expression fit the circumstance, or in which language the joke was funniest. It was quite entertaining. ;-)

» by Steve Ivy on Sep 11, 2003 at 09:08 PM

[Armenak]

That story reminds me of my friend's polyglot mother who can speak Arabic, Armenian, English, French, Spanish and Turkish quite fluently. She spoke all these languages, except for Spanish, at an intermediate or advanced level before emigrating to the United States from Lebanon.

Edited by Armenak, 08 August 2006 - 11:36 PM.

[Em]

My great-grandmother from my mom's side is turning 80 this month. She speaks Armenian, Turkish, Russian, Italian, and Greek fluently, and understands German. In the past 18 years of living in our lovely capitol in CA (amongst white people) she has learned enough English and Spanish to understand the 18 year old Hispanic girlfriend of her youngest grandson cursing her out in both languages because she walked in on them kissing in his bedroom. Lol. We jus love her humor at this age, and her mastery of these languages makes me feel very unintelligent.