1700 years of Christianity!!!

I was the first one to meet the 21-st century!!!!! YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Anyways,I wanted to congratulate everybody not only with the New Year,but with a very important Anniversary in Armenian history!!!
1700 YEARS OF CHRISTIANITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HOOOORRRRAAAAAYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There is no exact day of this occasion so the celebration will last for the WHOLE ENTIRE YEAR of 2001!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I guess we should start congratulating each other every day in this Forum!!!!

P.S. Mersi Garo u Movses!!!!

Well, what can I say?? As usual we are one step ahead. (being the first nation to accept it) It's nice to see you back, Nvard

Does anyone honestly believe that everyone in Armenia in 301 meekly abandoned their beliefs to adopt the latest fashion just because the king wanted it. It is about as likely as everyone in Armenia becoming ardent communists in 1921! And there were plenty of Christians in Armenia before 301.

This 1700 anniversary thing may be useful as a hook to hang all sorts of worthwhile cultural events on, but don't confuse it with real history!

Steve

Yes.
People in those days abandoned anything to adopt the fashion because the king or queen wanted it!

Fair point but that situation must have been different in a lot of ways

Enlighten us . Tell us. Tell us what is this real history?

Meeow!

Nizami Gyanjevi was a famous Persian poet born in Gandzak (or Gyanja, presently in Azerbaijan). If you ask any Azeri, ANY AZERI!!!: "Who was Nizami?", they answer with no doubt:"A famous Azerbaijani poet".

In our case:
-Mamigonyan, Bagratouni were Armenians!
-No they were a Chinese and a Jew.

-We are Indo-Europeans!
-No we're a mixture of Armenians, Turks, Jews.

-The alphabet was created by Mesrop!
-No it was not...

-We are Armenians!
-No we are not!

-Georgians: "We were the first to adopt Christianity".
-Armenians:"No, WE were the first to adopt Christianity".

UNESCO: "Armenians were the first to adopt Christianity".
Armenians: "Oh yeah, naaa, we just fooled you, this is just a great show and that's all".

-No we are a mix of all that and more,.. , egiptioans and other North African countries. Definatley Ino europeans since we are on the border of them both.


-Yeah we are!!



-Of course it is
-Screw you guys, I'm going HOME!

The official adoption of Christianity is described in Movses Khorenaci's and Agatangeghos'es writings ("History", "The 40 virgins", "Tortures of Grigor the Illuminator").
If you go to the Mother Church of Echmiadzin and go to the underground chamber at the back of the church, there is a remnant of the pagan mehyan (fireplace in Zoroastrizm). It was not demolished by King Trdat and Grigor the Illuminator to mark the link between Zoroastrian and Christian religions. If you stand right in front of the fireplace you have two basis columns of the Mother Church on your both sides with "five cross" seal on both of them. That's the seal of official adoption of Christianity by the then existing ARMENIAN STATE. Those who did not agree with the adoption were murdered by the kings army. That's how Chrisianity was "adopted" in each and every country in this world. That's how statehood survives. Armenia was nothing different.

I think this skepticism of Bellthecat/Steve highlights one of the biggest myths in Armenian history and consciousness.

Of course, Trdat was the first King in history to declare Christianity as official state religion (my understanding is that there is no argument about it anywhere). But what does this mean? Is it as simple as Armenians became Christian in 301? To me this type of declaration is absurd. People, especially nations, don't become Christian or Muslim overnight, by the order of the King. Christianity is a lifetime process of self-cleansing and spiritual self-perfection.

Let’s look at few facts. The first Christians were the Jews, if we are going to look at it on the level of isolated communities. It is natural. The Christianity was initially preached in Israel and Palestine. There are still communities of Christian Jews residing in the territory of historic Israel. There were also Christians on the territory of Egypt, which I presume, have evolved to form the Coptic Church. There is an evidence of Seven Churches in the New Testament, itself. Last time I checked the Acts, Armenian Church was not one of them.

It is known that the Christianity is brought to Armenia by the Apostles Bartholomeous and Thaddeus. In the absence of airplanes, it is obvious that, unless God’s miracle has descended them directly in Armenia (of which there is no evidence), they had to walk/ride through many other countries and nations. Being devoted disciples of Christ, they could’ve not just headed directly to Armenia, but would’ve tried to preach and baptize every one on their way. They had also to maneuver to avoid the persecution of the local authorities on their way. So it should’ve taken a very long time for them to reach Armenia since the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. By that time, with the same success, many communities would’ve become Christian. Don’t forget that meanwhile, the other Apostles and other disciples were doing the same – baptizing anyone they could. So by the time the two “Armenian” Apostles would've reached Armenia, a lot of communities would've already been Christened, and moreover, even slaughtered for their beliefs – so that Armenians are not even the first Christian martyrs.

So, OK, Trdat orders accepting Christianity in 301. Does it mean Armenia became Christian? Obviously and absolutely not! For example, it has taken some 150 years for the Persians to realize that this “Christianity” their northern neighbors are talking about, besides being “annoying” for Persia, is becoming serious. So they try to bring the Armenian elite “back to its senses.” We all know this part of the story. Armenian historians, s-u-ck-ing-up the Armenian Church doctrine, have portrayed the Zoroastrian Armenians as traitors. In particular, Vasak Siuny and Varuzhan Artsruny. But when we think carefully, given that the predominant majority of the population still had to be Zoroastrian, Vasak and Artsruny might’ve been the real patriots and the wise statesmen. They might've felt that fighting a war with Persia was not in Armenia’s best interests, and it was nuts. Think of it. Armenians lost 66,000 “Kadjats Army” in Avaraire – the entire Army. The officers, and the solders alike were killed. The last attributes of the Armenian semi-independence were lost subsequently, the country was devastated. But we claim moral victory. This was the first question that I, as a kid, have asked my teacher – how can we claim victory, if our entire army was demolished? The teacher didn't know. It took some 20 years from me to find the answer. It was the Church who celebrated victory at the cost of the distraction of Armenian Statehood, and its hope. Think of it. For almost 500 years, we were not able to bring together another Army. The country was destroyed, the Church prospered. It collaborated with all enemies, as long as they didn’t touch the Church. “Screw the state “ was the motto. The Church became even the instrument of the exploitation and the enslavement of the nation. The Christianity was transferred to a mere instrument of accumulation of wealth for the invaders, and the Church itself. The Christian faith was replaced by the ritual and religious symbols. The entire faith came down to few mechanical procedures (the way they were and still are done) – baptism, wedding, and burial, accompanied with monetary transactions. This is the entire essence of Armenian Christianity up to our days.

But one thing has to be emphasized. As we stand now, we are still pagans, and we have always been so with the exception of small groups of people. Following the rituals, and worshipping the symbols of Christianity doesn’t make one to become a Christian. The paganism has been and remains stronger in some regions of Armenia than in others. For example, it has been always very strong in Zangezure/Siunik. At different times, Armenian Church has totally lost its control over Siunik.

I hope that Armenians will indeed become Christians some day. Whether it will be in our lifetime or not, has to be seen.

P.S. More to come after a wave of protests.


[This message has been edited by MJ (edited January 04, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by MJ (edited January 06, 2001).]

Berj,

You are right. But does it mean that we should cover-up and invent myths to glorify the absurd? Does it help our nation to be abstracted from the truth?

P.S. My comments are not directed at you presonally, but at our national institutions.


[This message has been edited by MJ (edited January 04, 2001).]

MJ,

Your arguments are concerning the positive/negative role of Armenian Church in the history of the Armenian people.

The topic is "1700 years of Christianity". We mark something that will be on TV screens associated with Armenia in positive sence.

Three major events when Armenia was actively discussed in world media have been the Earthquake, the Karabagh conflict and the Terrorist act.

The only kind of events the world knows who did it first are events of these kind:

Jews were the first nation to be Jews
Gagarin was the first to make a cosmic flight
USA was the first to atomicly bomb Japan
Russia was the first country where Stalin came to power
France was the first country to built the Eifel Tower

Almost every country has a false celebration to bring world's attention to itself. Like who invented the gunpowder etc. We are maybe the first one trying to make a mess of our false celebration.

MJ, we posted at the same time, so I didn't read your last posting before replying, and I hate editing

A person in Armenian history that I always admired is King Pap and his struggle against the Church. He was betrayed by our Church. King Gagik was also betrayed by the Church, precisely by the Catholicos.

For me, the Armenian Church are the buildings, the paintings, Grigor Narekaci, Komitas, the martirs of all kinds etc. and not those clergymen or ceremonies.

This is what we'll be or we must celebrating.

P.S. Actually, I'm not baptised. Yet.

[This message has been edited by Berj (edited January 04, 2001).]

Berj,

I totally agree with the logic of your statements, and also think that bringing Armenia to the spotlight in a positive manner is very important, and I am all for it. There are a lot of positive things going on in Armenia, but we always talk about the negatives, which can be found everywhere. It is just that false sense of being so different and so unique, that is a major part of our porblems. Let's just accept that we are a normal nation just like anybody else, not to try to find a trace of Armenian blood in every celebrity we come across with, not to try to be the first in history in something, just be comfortable in our own skin, not to defin our identity through our association with the Turks or the Chinees, just be ourselves, live our lives, work, create, raise our children to be descent people, and so on. If we do all this, everything else will come. No need to get out of our way to prove our importance. Our importance is proved by the present not the past.



[This message has been edited by MJ (edited January 04, 2001).]

Agree!

Wasn't the original significance of this whole issue the fact the King declared Armenia a Christian Nation? It had nothing to do with the people adopting the faith. The official proclamation was the significant event. It has since been blown out of proportion.


Don't fret, my brother; it's not all it's cracked-up to be. I was baptised in the Armenian Church (and as a teenager in a regular church) and look where it got me.

P.S. Hi Martin

First of all is Armenia really the first nation to adopt Christianity? The Assyrians claim to have that distinction, and to me that seems more logical as they lived a bit closer to Israel and still speak essentially the same language that Christ did.

Second of all, I must agree (yes, agree!) with MJ, most Armenians are Christian on the outside, but very superstitious and pagan on the inside, so what good does it do boasting about being the first? SOme of the most devout Christians are found in African Countries or the South Pacific now!

Finally, does this distinction help the Armenia of today?

Armenians think it does because they think it asserts the importance of Armenia.



[This message has been edited by Kazza (edited January 04, 2001).]

To all,

One becomes a Christian by faith in Jesus Christ, His Father, and Holy Spirit, but not by order of a King!

It would be naive to believe that all Armenian were pagans before 301, and become Christians after that. The years of 301 is the year when Armenian Kind Trdat III accepted Christian faith and declared it as his kingdom's religion. He became the first Christian King who declared first Christian state. However, Christianity in Armenia was practiced long before 301. As you know Christianity first reached the common people, the poor, the tortured, the hungry, and there were many of such people in Armenia. Consequently, the common people of Armenia easily adopted Christian Faith at the time when Apostols Thaddeus and Bartholomew preached in Armenia. In contrast, people in power opposed Christianity and persecuted Christians until 301. The repression of Armenian Christians by Armenian state ended in 301, when the King by himself was baptized. As you might have guessed if The King became a Christian, the whole Royal Court followed. You know how politicians in Autocratic countries want to be close to the head of the state.

Here is the actual story of how king Trdat become a Christian.

"Trdat III persecutes Christians in Armenia. He kills a group of thirty seven Christian virgins who have fled to Armenia to escape Roman persecution, after one of the virgins, Hripsimé, refuses to marry him. The leader of this group is Gayané, who, along with Hripsimé is revered as one of the founding saints of the Armenian Church. After committing this crime, King Trdat goes insane. Trdat's sister, Khosrovidoukht has a dream in which a man tells her that the persecution of Christians must stop. She tells her brother that he will be cured if Gregory is released from the pit. The King agrees to release Gregory. Gregory restores Trdat’s health and baptizes the King and the royal family. King Trdat declares Christianity the national religion and Armenia, thereby, becomes the first Christian state."

Source: http://www.etchmiadzin.com
This is a very good site I recommend visiting.

Historicly the year of 301 is very significant for Armenians. I as an Armenian pround of that.

MJ, your comments were missed in this forum. Quite an interesting post about Armenian Church. While I am not a supporter of any religious organization including Armenian Apostolic Church, I can’t deny the fact that Armenian Church was instrumental in shaping our culture. Armenian “Voske Dar” (5-7 centuries), was directly sponsored by Armenian Church. It’s true that the diplomacy of state affairs that were supported by Armenian church did not lead to the greatest results, however we can not bash an organization without realizing the fact that Armenian church took on the powers of state for almost thousand years. It collected taxes (tasnord), represented Armenian interests in highest offices and supported the development of Armenian culture. There is a book published in Armenia “Hye kxerutyun@ yev divanagituyun@”, which explains the role of Armenian Church in state affairs. The most successful diplomatic moves by Armenia were done when it collaborated with its Muslim neighbors. The one that stands out the most was the trip of Levon, King of Cilicia, to Karakorum to sign a treaty with Mongol khan and ensure the safety of Armenian state. Yes it’s true that our church has a national blend. For us Christ is Armenian, and the Holy Land is in Armenia. We can’t reconcile with the fact that Jews were the chosen people, not us. The murals in Armenian churches depict Jesus in historical Armenian landscapes. A great example of this is the picture in St. Mary’s Apostolic Church of Jesus in front of Ararat being baptized by John the Baptist in Arax. Up to this day it’s common to hear from Armenian clergy, “Irantsinnerin ekav, bayts mezanov hambartsvets”. To make another correction, you can’t be a Jew and a Christian at the same time. It’s similar to being Muslim and Christian. It’s true that there are Israeli Christians, but there are no Christian Jews.

Excellent posts, gentlemen

However, I'm failing to see the relevance of all this to any of us at the present. 1700 years of opium addiction (to paraphrase our good friend marx)and spiritual enslavement (that one's my own...lol). I don't see how it's anything to be proud of.

Dear Alpha,

Indeed the Armenian “Voske Dar” should be attributed to the Armenian Church, and we have to give it a due credit for its sponsorship of scientific and cultural life of Armenia throughout early medieval centuries.

But I believe we have to put things in perspective. I sure agree that throughout centuries the Church has represented the nation. And I feel that’s the crux of the issue. If we are ready to glorify the Church for taking on this non-idiosyncratic for a healthy Church function, we have to always give an objective assessment, and hold the Church responsible for the permanent sad state of affairs in the arena of the Armenian Sovereignty, and the lose of other important state and national attributes.

As to signing treaties with Mongol khans or other militant invaders, we have to put things in the right perspective. I have no problems with our kings and presidents signing agreements with the neighbors and other states. In fact, I advocate such stance, as you may recall. But I do have a serious problem with the Church doing it. Moreover, I have serious problems with the Church suppressing the national liberation movements, and handing over the leaders of infant liberation movements to the enemies, for the sake of the preservation of the status quo. After all, with rare exceptions, all the invaders want is that the nation submits to their rule, pays taxes to them, and becomes totally de-politicized. And if the Armenian Church is playing the role of the instrument in the hands of the invaders to serve this purpose, what else does the invader need? If there is a problem, the Church will go and make the nation to submit, and “turn the other cheek, when slapped.” The important thing for the Church is that it gets its portion of the taxes, and doesn’t lose its religious community. The Church starts thinking of the liberation of the nation (like in the case of Israel Ori), when it feels that the nation has fallen away from the Church, and pretty soon, there would be no religious community left. Who cares about the state, and the liberty, when the religious herd is attending the ceremonies, baptizing the children, using the Church’s services during weddings and burials. As long as the community is there, and the fees are paid, that’s fine with the Church, right? And nobody has to try to change the status quo. This is the real story with the Church. It has become a self-serving institution throughout history. And if we are claiming that it has been the sole representative of the nation, then it is very logical to hold it responsible for the incessant tragedies of our country.

As I have said, I am very much for the collaboration with out Muslim neighbors. There is no way around it, and Armenia will be the sole loser in the case of the lack of such collaboration. To me, the religion is not a criterion for defining our partners, as long as it is a partnership and not slavery.

When you say our Church has a national blend, I am not quite sure what it means in the positive sense of the word. To me, it is a negative thing. One can say this was what has preserved our nation, and I would claim that was the reason our nation and the country have consistently declined and decayed.

I recall meeting an older Armenian American lady in the St. James Church at Culver City, who once told me with pride “My father has told me you can denounce your nationality, you can denounce your language and citizenship, but never betray our Church.” This statement of hers is very indicative of the Church’s teaching throughout history - anything is fine, as long as you stay with the Church. She was proud of this feeling, and I was very sad for our nation. And this is a typical attitude in vast segments of our nation. Sadly enough... That’s why we don’t have a political Diaspora, for example, but rather a religious one.

With all due respect, I have to say that I don’t share your pride for the picture in the St. Mary Church. In my view, it is one of the greatest heresies, for which the Armenian Church is renowned. You cannot attribute nationality to the Son of the living God. I cannot possibly accept the humanization of the Jesus Christ. If that is so, then the entire idea loses its meaning. We have to also take into consideration that after more than 1500 years of confusion and heresy, our Church has adapted, or better to say has clarified its stance on the issue of the Holly Trinity. Garegin I has signed that treaty with the Roman Pop only a couple of years ago.

A also think that you can be a Jew and a Christian at the same time, while you cannot be Jewish and Christian at the same time. The Christian sect called Jews for Jesus has been instrumental throughout centuries. “Jew” refers to the nationality, while the “Jewish” refers to the religion.

My bottom line is this. The history of Armenia, with the exception of some short periods, has been a history of misery. Admittedly, throughout centuries, the Church has claimed leadership for the nation. Then, it is the only one to be held responsible for that misery. Who else? Isn’t it enough to blame others for our own misery? Compare it with the European countries. Throughout centuries, the Church has played the most prominent role in those countries, too. But to the contrary to the Armenia Church, it has resulted in the establishment and strengthening of their respective countries.

Finally, there is one classic example in our history associated with one of the better Catholicoses – Khrimyan Hairik. He was trying to negotiate reforms for the Armenian minority in Ottoman Empire. And he came back home totally humiliated, and realizing the Conference in Berlin was not his place – the place of a Catholicos to be. He was even given an explicit counterexample of the Serbian example. I am sure you know this story.

I want also add a paragraph on the roots of the association of the Armenian identity with the Armenian Apostolic Church. This very fact is indicative of the sad reality of the lose of real identity throughout history. The fact of the matter is that in Islamic nations the ethnicity or nationality is not considered as a factor of identity. It is the religion that is the identity. I have been told, that in Islamic societies, two people coming across have identified each other asking questions about their religion. I expect that this practice is by in large alive even in our days. But this implies that living under the domination of an Islamic regime, Armenians have also been identified by their religious belonging. This is, I guess, where the thesis “The one who doesn’t belong to the Armenian Church is not Armenian” comes from. It is reminiscent of the Islamic domination. I have heard this expression even in our Forum. So basically, according to this logic, our Patriarch Haik - the founder of our nation, was not Armenian.




[This message has been edited by MJ (edited January 08, 2001).]