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What can we do to help Armenia on it's feet


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#1 EZ

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Posted 02 December 2002 - 04:45 PM

I haven't been around for quite some time. I just got back so to speak. What came to my mind recently while I was trying to catch up, reading some threads here, was that I think this place lacks contructive thinking. What I notice is that very often a topic ends up in a personal fight. A lot of time and energy seems to be wasted in endless discussions that everyone seems to want to win for some reason. But a lot of people on this forum agree on one thing: "Armenia". Some of you never even saw Armenia (including me), still your thoughts are with Armenia. So, I want to plead (pleed? how the *** is this spelled?) for Armenia, if I may... I'm not Armenian, yet I too have a certain love for Armenia (don't ask me why, it's too long of a story)... Why don't we all, ALL, take each others hand and work for Armenia...

What can we think of, what can we come up with, what can we do... to help Armenia get on it's feet, to become a strong and healthy nation.

Elly.

#2 Azat

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Posted 02 December 2002 - 07:44 PM

Elle, That is a good question and it would be interesting to see what other think about it as well.

I would tell you the small(very small) but conscious effort that I make to help Armenia. I buy Armenian. I understand that residing in Los Angeles this is much easier for me than for most others. I am of the school that once business improves other things will as well. Don't get me wrong, I know that there are better products, there are cheaper products, but I still by "Made in Armenia" products. I hope that as trade increases and volume increases both the quality will improve and price will get cheaper.

I also think that one of the major things that the big benefactors like Kirk Krikorian and others should insist that human rights should improve as well with their donations. For everything else people pay money in that country mind as well it be for human rights as well. I think that once human rights improve more businesses will be interested in doing business there as well.

#3 nairi

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Posted 03 December 2002 - 02:37 AM

Ha Elly! Dè Elly toch? Of een andere? Welkom (terug) in ieder geval!

Nice topic. I still think that concerning human rights, we should start a Loesje-like branch in Armenia and (big) Armenian communities. It's a tiny step, but if done well, it could cause a storm. What do you think? (I don't think anyone understood the concept last time I posted this idea. Perhaps you could help...)

International Loesje homepage:

http://www.loesje.org/

Nairi

#4 sen_Vahan

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Posted 03 December 2002 - 08:25 AM

"What can we think of, what can we come up with, what can we do... to help Armenia get on it's feet, to become a strong and healthy nation."

I have no idea. Well, I have some as well as many other people do have, but they may be unrealistic to achieve. How do i see this thing is that those people in Armenia need the help since they are "under pressure" - some help for them not to leave the country any more, to have jobs, not to see the corruption in every level of life, etc. What can we do or how can those outside Armenia give a hand? What I or my parents did untill now was helping our relatives or neighbours in Armenia in terms of money but this is not a serious help. And i think this is what most of the diasporans do - they send money or something else which in fact does not help Armenia a lot because of the corrupted structures there(city beautification is not going to increase the level of life).
So, I think one way to help is to write, read,talk about Armenia, bring other people's attention closer to her and travel to Armenia a lot

#5 Varduhi

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Posted 03 December 2002 - 09:34 AM

What can we think of, what can we come up with, what can we do... to help Armenia get on it's feet, to become a strong and healthy nation.

To improve Armenia’s situation first of all we need to change our unfair and selfish government (which is impossible) and then, maybe something good will happen, but till then I don’t know what to say. Plus Armenia needs big working factories, organizations so people can be employed and have jobs to survive. That’s what Armenia needs right now. I don’t think personal donations would make life easier in Armenia it might work for couple of Armenian families but NOT the whole entire nation.

....For them not to leave the country any more,...
Sen_vahan, its hard for you to imagine life in Armenia that’s why your saying this but right now for most people staying in Armenia means death sentence, is that what you want?

Bye

#6 MJ

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Posted 03 December 2002 - 09:48 AM

Vahan,

I broadly agree with you. However, I think the primary problem in Armenia is not the corruption, while it certainly is a big hindrance on the way of our development. Corruption is a consequence.

One of the primary problem is that Armenia(ns) has(ve) no facilities to get access to the whatever markets and to claim market share. This, by in large, is due to absence of vision in the big realm of things, and total lack of understanding of the rules of the marketing game. If Armenia would have coherent vision and marketing strategy, jobs can be created and the corruption can be gradually phased out. Corruption thrives only when there is no positive outlook.

Armenia indeed needs new people and new mentality. These people exist. One just has to help them to come forward by establishing proper mechanisms for their self-identification. Armenians are normally very creative and able individuals, and forgot to tell… they love money. There is one big problem though – a big mouth, and a perception that they already know everything, and these "stupid Americans (for example) don’t understand anything." Every other Armenian has "cracked the problem of international politics," is aware of all "conspiracies" in the world, and is ready to "export" his knowledge outside the perimeters of Armenia. This leads to the syndrome of "tunnel vision."

What we also need to understand is that we have been left behind the modern world by some 30 years, at least. The good thing, however, is that we can cross that road in some 5 years if we stop inventing the wheel and stop thinking that we are "unique and special." We are not! All it takes to change things is a coherent effort and discipline. The lack of discipline is one of the primary faults of Armenians. One has to figure out how this can be changed – this is the hardest part. It is hard to change people’s habits. The government of Armenia is not going to do it. No other government will do it, either. That’s not how it works. But someone has to put forward a positive message that can excite people. People need hope and they need to believe in the future. Then, things will change on their own.

Now I solved the problem.

#7 Harut

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Posted 03 December 2002 - 10:04 AM

quote:
Originally posted by MJ:
One of the primary problem is that Armenia(ns) has(ve) no facilities to get access to the whatever markets and to claim market share. This, by in large, is due to absence of vision in the big realm of things, and total lack of understanding of the rules of the marketing game.

and this is probably the inharitance of the socialism. most of the government and business personnel were educated with the socialistic way of conducting business.
i don't expect anything good in terms of economy as lons as those people hold the power.
hopfully people who believe in free market will emerge soon.

#8 vava

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Posted 03 December 2002 - 02:18 PM

I'm sorry for opening my big mouth, but I can't resist... and MJ touched on this by mentioning 'vision'. Vision, yes it's true... vision and Direction. We need coherent leadership. Leadership that will unite the vision of Armenians in ROA, and will unite the vision of various Diasporan communities.

It is clear that Armenia will have a difficult time taking command of its future without external help. That external help might already exist and could be mobilised with the establishment of cohesive Armenian leadership.

So where do we find this leadership?

[ December 03, 2002, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: vava ]

#9 vava

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Posted 03 December 2002 - 02:20 PM

And I wholly agree with MJ, BTW...

#10 Rubo

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Posted 04 December 2002 - 07:35 AM

I know how I can help Armenia-I will go to an Armenian stores and buy Turkish candy, Turkish dry fruit, Turkish whatever and I will go home and listen Turkish music with the added confusion of thinking it is an Armenian music and to top it off talk Turkish to your kids instead of Armenian. That’s it, call it twisted identity problem!

Yes MJ I also agree that we need people with vision.
"When there is no vision people will parish"

#11 EZ

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Posted 05 December 2002 - 12:37 AM

Azat.

1. Buy Armenian products.
Seems a simple and easy way to help. If it's done on a large scale one would think that it should make a difference at some point.

I am curious now, what Armenian products are on the market (in the LA-area)?

2. Improve the human right situation.
I assume you are refering to the problem of corruption, that will scare investors off.
That's a much more complicated matter. I wonder, Are human rights and corruption issues generally acknowledged in Armenia and can they be discussed openly and freely?

Hi Nairy. Ja, ja THAT Elly.

Loesje, good idea!

About Loesje

I have to admit that I hadn't realized before that Loesje became international.

As you can see in the list below there is not an Armenian Loesje yet.

World wide local Loesje homepages:
Loesje Finland
Loesje Germany
Loesje Netherlands
Loesje Russia
Loesje Slovakia
Loesje Slovenia
Loesje Sweden
Loesje USA

Every little step forward is worthwhile making, in my opinion.

Actually, Loesje could be a nice way for young Armenian people to speak their minds, confront the public with the truth, to get people to pay attention to various subjects or to even protest in an fairly innocent and playful way. We call something like that a "ludieke actie".

"Loesje" is a Dutch girls name. In the eighties a few Dutch students invented her and from that moment on imaginary Loesje started leaving a long trace through Holland. Her signed posters are being spread in public places like schools, (youth)clubs, bathrooms, anywhere where they will be noticed. You can find Loesjes posters on internet, in black and white, so anyone can print them out and spread them.

Posted Image Posted Image

I don’t think a Loesje-like action will be able to change the world, however, you never know... but as a way to express yourself, to be heard, even when the effect is tiny, it could at least help feeling less powerless.

Now, I hope I'm not going to be accused of advertising here, because obviously that is not what I intended to do.

MJ

You say that the primary cause (for the bad economy) more or less is that the Armenians (in Armenia) don’t understand the marketing game. I find that hard to believe. As you say, Armenians normally are very creative and able. That, plus their ‘love’ for money combined with some good brains (assuming they also have that) should make them excellent players in the marketing game and it should also make them able to create a vision that holds everything together. So that can’t be the problem.

Of course the love for money also can drive people to take advantage of a situation, if they are in the position to do so. Let’s say there is nothing, nothing but maybe chaos, people will be in great need to find means to survive. The people in power (and I don’t mean only political power because corruption occurs at all levels) will be tempted to use that power for their own benefit. It’s the easiest way, especially when there is not really an (easy) alternative. Also, in case of Armenia, it was part of the USSR for a long time, where corruption was a way of life (if I may say so), a way to survive. People got tired of it, yet, given the chance now to change things, what do they do? Don’t kill me for saying it, but I think they tend to do the same thing all over. Why is that? It can’t be because it’s the only thing they know, the only think they are capable of, or because it’s in their blood or something. It has to have to do with the situation, the circumstances, very complicated circumstances... well, too complicated for me . I mean, it’s not only Armenia who has an interest in itself, or am I wrong?

It’s very hard to ban corruption totally, as hard as banning crime as a whole from this world. It’s impossible. With humans, depending on situation and circumstances it can always go either this or that way, meaning the good or the bad way. Nevertheless one has to keep on trying in my opinion. And to fight it one would have to understand what is causing and feeding it.

You say it’s hard to change people’s habits and the government of Armenia is not going to do it. So I’m thinking: "Who then will (be willing)?" SOMEONE has to!!? Who will benefit from changing these habits? I assume that is the Armenian people! So how can you make them change their habits, make them see where things go wrong and what needs to change. How do you do that? One thing of course is to speak up. Use something like the "Loesjes posters" for all I care... Found a new political party, create and support a new leader, mobilize people that don’t have bad habits, who have had the luck to learn a different, better way of doing things and who have the ability of getting the message across.

I don’t know for sure how relations are between diaspora-Armenians and Armenia-Armenians, hopefully it’s not that bad, that they could be opponents when it comes to these matters. The different Armenian ‘groups’ could mean so much to each other. Is it thinkable for example that diaspora-Armenians actually go back to Armenia to make a difference there? I can imagine that their experience, knowledge, views etc. are of great value. Of course I can also imagine that diaspora-Armenians aren’t that eager to go back, since a lot of them now have a (more) comfortable life outside Armenia.

From what I understand something needs to be done, changed urgently. That brings me to another question: what will happen otherwise, what are possible scenario’s in the worst case? Will Armenia sooner or later disappear from the world map?

Oh, a question aside... Armenians who are living abroad, will they keep the Armenian passport or not?

By the way, I am learning and thinking, trying to understand. I’m not trying to prove anyone wrong, just sharing my thoughts here.

Elly.

#12 EZ

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Posted 05 December 2002 - 12:41 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Rubo:
[QB]I know how I can help Armenia-I will go to an Armenian stores and buy Turkish candy, Turkish dry fruit, Turkish whatever and I will go home and listen Turkish music with the added confusion of thinking it is an Armenian music and to top it off talk Turkish to your kids instead of Armenian. That’s it, call it twisted identity problem!
QB]

I understand that this is sarcasm. But I don't understand what's behind it. Can you explain?

#13 EZ

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Posted 04 December 2002 - 01:02 PM

There are no Armenian products OR there is no difference between Armenian or Turkish?

#14 Arpa

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Posted 04 December 2002 - 01:07 PM

Harut writes;
and this is probably the inharitance of the socialism. most of the government and business personnel were educated
with the socialistic way of conducting business. i don't expect anything good in terms of economy as lons as those people hold the power.
hopfully people who believe in free market will emerge soon. --------------------
BA?!?!

====
Yes Harut, you have learned your lesson pretty good. You have mastered the art of "passing the buck" to a perfection.
Of course, "socialism" of less than a century has modified our behavior so much to become corrupt thieves and cynical opportunists, yet how we forget that for over 17 centuries we were another kind of "socialists" that some call "christianity". How soon we foget our roots and mimic others not only in the case of "socialism" but also in the case of the latter "ism".
Is it not about time that we invent aother kind of "ism". I meant WE INVENT, for a change, let us invent something instead of falling for other peoples' "isms" while in the meantime forgetting our own "ism" whatever the hell it may be. How is Armeninism? Better yet, how about patriotism. You give us the definition.
The authors and inventors of socialism and commuinism never subscribed to it (neither did they subscribe to that other "ism" described above), are doing very well. Thank you. Those who produced Lenins and Stalins are not doing so badly either. Thank you again.
Only if we could stop blaming everbody and their cousin for our misfortunes and start taking our fortune and destiny in our own hands...

Which brings us....
Rubo wrote;
I know how I can help Armenia-I will go to an Armenian stores and buy Turkish candy, Turkish dry fruit, Turkish whatever and I will go home and listen Turkish music with the added confusion of thinking it is an Armenian music and to top it off talk Turkish to your kids instead of Armenian. That’s it, call it twisted identity problem!

Yes MJ I also agree that we need people with vision.
"When there is no vision people will parish"

--------------------
Armenian Solidarity

======
Rubo, you, you, you SRIKA Rubo! (You will get the point when I write about this word).
How dare you STEAL my thunder!!
I have been mulling and fuming over this subject for the past few days.
Over the holidays I was at some "Armenian" stores where I had to navigate through aisle after aisle to find something that was not a product of Turkey. Figs from Turkey, dried fruits from Turkey, hardware from Turkey, and as you say, so called music...
Guess who is buying them!
I did not see any Turkish customers, neither did I see any Irish ones.
As if that was not enough I was at a nationawide store where they were stocking the shelves with holiday "chirs" (not a typo, I spelled it as a pun, as in "chir u chamich"). One item caught my eyes, it was bright (orange) and shiny, a product of Sunsweet, the company that brings us raisins and prunes and other dried fruits and nuts. I could not resist, I picked up a package, it was Dried Apricots. My immediate thoughts were; "Oh good, they are selling an Armenian fruit, could it be from Yerevan Province"?
Close!!??
It was labeled in bold and huge letters; "Product of Turkey".
Who said apricot, Prunus Armeniaca was an Armenian fruits?!!
Is anything sacred any more??!!
Please join me in singing Tsirani Tsar.

MosJan, sorry, your "(powered by) Apricot juice" caused all this diarrhea of the mouth.
BTW Rubo, it is "perish" not "parish"

#15 Azat

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Posted 04 December 2002 - 01:31 PM

Hey Elly,

quote:
Originally posted by EZ:
1. Buy Armenian products.
Seems a simple and easy way to help. If it's done on a large scale one would think that it should make a difference at some point.

I am curious now, what Armenian products are on the market (in the LA-area)?

There are too many to list but here is a sampling.
1. Cigarettes - I don't smoke but for people who do they can smoke Grant Tobacco products
2. Fruit Juices - there are at least 4-5 companies who import juice to US in probably 10-12 different kinds of fruit flavors.
3. Beer - I know of 3 brands and one of them "Erebuni" is actually a excellent beer
4. Hard alcoholic beverages. Vodka and Cognac
5. Wine - I have to admit that the Armenian Wine is not good and I will only buy it once or twice a year.
6. Dried fruits - sure the turkish and California are better, but we too have great dried fruit
7. Jams and preserves - There are too many to list.
8. Canned vegetables. There are many kinds. I actually think that Armenian Tomato Paste is the best in the market right now.

One thing that I do not use right now, but few companies do and many more should is the computer software programmers from Armenia. I have interviewed few in a previous company who had masters degrees and were exceptional programmers who ended up working for another company from Armenia at around $1200 a month range. This is much cheaper than anyone in the states with similar skills.

quote:
Originally posted by EZ:
1. Buy Armenian products.
2. Improve the human right situation.
I assume you are refering to the problem of corruption, that will scare investors off.
That's a much more complicated matter. I wonder, Are human rights and corruption issues generally acknowledged in Armenia and can they be discussed openly and freely?

I actually wanted to separate both corruption and human rights. Armenian police is run like a mafia. Same with the Army and the courts. They scare too many your people(especially men) our of the country.

There was a recent example of a young man who was beaten to death because he tried not to join the army. To top if off the Courts would not even allow the family to participate in the proceedings.

Rubo You just have to look to the "Made in Armenia" on the item you are buying and you are home free. I have to say, that I too have seen that alot and MAJORITY of the Armenian stores carry Turkish products as we(Armenians) have created this demand for them. You can't blame the stores, you have to educate the consumers.

[ December 04, 2002, 01:32 PM: Message edited by: Azat ]

#16 EZ

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Posted 04 December 2002 - 03:51 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Azat:
Hey Elly,

quote:
Originally posted by EZ:


There are too many to list but here is a sampling.
1. Cigarettes - I don't smoke but for people who do they can smoke Grant Tobacco products

Maybe this one better not I mean you don't want to kill anyone, do you. And I don't think tobacco industry has future. (I AM a smoker b.t.w. )

2. Fruit Juices - there are at least 4-5 companies who import juice to US in probably 10-12 different kinds of fruit flavors.
3. Beer - I know of 3 brands and one of them "Erebuni" is actually a excellent beer
4. Hard alcoholic beverages. Vodka and Cognac
5. Wine - I have to admit that the Armenian Wine is not good and I will only buy it once or twice a year.
6. Dried fruits - sure the turkish and California are better, but we too have great dried fruit
7. Jams and preserves - There are too many to list.
8. Canned vegetables. There are many kinds. I actually think that Armenian Tomato Paste is the best in the market right now.

If you are buying out of principle the quality shouldn't matter that much. However if Armenia wants to compete in the future they should meet certain standards eventually.

Since I'm into coctails lately I would go for the Vodka and also the Cognac sounds good. Unfortunately I wouldn't know where to get it here in Holland.

I once thought I bought Armenian coffee in Glendale, that turned out to be Turkish. But I wouldn't be surprised if it originally came from south america after all. I also bought those cute coffee cups, and a coffee cooker, but they too were not Armenian made.

Anyway, it seems such a little thing to do and so easy, to support Armenian (original) business/industry this way. Imagine, if at least all Armenians would do it...

What about Armenian NON-food stuff?



One thing that I do not use right now, but few companies do and many more should is the computer software programmers from Armenia. I have interviewed few in a previous company who had masters degrees and were exceptional programmers who ended up working for another company from Armenia at around $1200 a month range. This is much cheaper than anyone in the states with similar skills.

Are you talking of (distant) Armenian labour in Armenia or at the spot in the USA? If they come to work in the USA, they may end up staying there. I assume Armenia too needs good programmers.

quote:
Originally posted by EZ:
1. Buy Armenian products.
2. Improve the human right situation.
I assume you are refering to the problem of corruption, that will scare investors off.
That's a much more complicated matter. I wonder, Are human rights and corruption issues generally acknowledged in Armenia and can they be discussed openly and freely?

I actually wanted to separate both corruption and human rights. Armenian police is run like a mafia. Same with the Army and the courts. They scare too many your people(especially men) our of the country.

There was a recent example of a young man who was beaten to death because he tried not to join the army. To top if off the Courts would not even allow the family to participate in the proceedings.


I would like to know now how democratic Armenia actually IS?
Is there freedom of speech at ALL?
Is there ANY justice in Armenia?


I can imagine that for certain reasons it is not wise go into the above questions publically. But I honestly want to learn about the true situation in Armenia. In that case you can send me a private message (or am I getting paranoid now )

#17 Azat

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Posted 04 December 2002 - 04:40 PM

Elly, the employment was a 6 month contract of 2 developers who worked from home in Armenia for a company in USA. Worked out great.

I am sure Armenia does not have coffee. It is just the style of how coffee is made that is called Armenian or Turkish(same style)

On paper we have everything. Freedom of speech, Freedom of the Press, freedom of religion, etc. But on another recent case a poet was put in jail for writing things against the president. But overall it is not as bad as in MANY other countries out there.

#18 EZ

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Posted 04 December 2002 - 06:22 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Azat:
Elly, the employment was a 6 month contract of 2 developers who worked from home in Armenia for a company in USA. Worked out great.


That's a great solution. Maybe it's an idea to set up a non-profit agency that can intermediate to stimulate something like this?


On paper we have everything. Freedom of speech, Freedom of the Press, freedom of religion, etc. But on another recent case a poet was put in jail for writing things against the president.


I also recall a story of a guy being killed by the presidents safety guards because he said something wrong at the wrong place.

If Armenia is a democracy on paper, how come that its not really a democracy?

Let's say I would want to found a new political party with different ideas, would that be a simple thing to do in Armenia?

But overall it is not as bad as in MANY other countries out there.

Maybe so, but we are talking about Armenia now, aren't we.

I think to talk of this stuff openly and not hide anything is a good thing, a step into the right direction, although I realize that it's not such a nice subject.

My own country Holland, compared to Armenia and many other countries is paradise, but not perfect. Our latest (resigned) government was a rediculous bunch to be honest and this Sebrenica business is also not something to be proud of. But that's not the topic here.




#19 Azat

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Posted 04 December 2002 - 07:59 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by EZ:
That's a great solution. Maybe it's an idea to set up a non-profit agency that can intermediate to stimulate something like this?

Did you say non-profit? No Armenian knows what a non-profit is.

I actually think that it is a great idea and it really works for both the companies in the west as well as individuals/companies there and the salary that they get paid($1000) so ALOT of money there.


I also recall a story of a guy being killed by the presidents safety guards because he said something wrong at the wrong place.

If Armenia is a democracy on paper, how come that its not really a democracy?

Let's say I would want to found a new political party with different ideas, would that be a simple thing to do in Armenia?


Yes that is true. It was around the 1700 celebration that they were doing(I think) and I think it was at a restaurant where the President and Aznavour were having dinner(I could be wrong, my memory is a little sketchy on this). I am not even sure what happened to the bodyguards who beat this guy to death in the bathroom of that restaurant.

It is a democracy. It's just the old corrupt guard is still controlling too many things.

And yes, we can go and open up the HyeForum political party without any major hurdles. Actually, Armenia somewhat like Italy has many parties right now although only 2-3 are the dominant parties.


Maybe so, but we are talking about Armenia now, aren't we.

I think to talk of this stuff openly and not hide anything is a good thing, a step into the right direction, although I realize that it's not such a nice subject.

My own country Holland, compared to Armenia and many other countries is paradise, but not perfect. Our latest (resigned) government was a ridiculous bunch to be honest and this Sebrenica business is also not something to be proud of. But that's not the topic here.


I agree with you. And I had only made that statement to not give you the idea that it is anything like many of the African countries or other mid-east countries.

Did I already mention that I am glad to see you back here?

#20 EZ

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Posted 06 December 2002 - 01:01 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Azat:
Originally posted by EZ:
That's a great solution. Maybe it's an idea to set up a non-profit agency that can intermediate to stimulate something like this?

Did you say non-profit? No Armenian knows what a non-profit is.


I did not have only Armenians in mind. I'm thinking globally.

I actually think that it is a great idea and it really works for both the companies in the west as well as individuals/companies there and the salary that they get paid($1000) so ALOT of money there.

It really sounds like a great solution: teleworking.

In your example it was an Armenian company. Would it also work with other, non-Armenian, companies? I'm sure in this particular case they communicated in Armenian. I have the impression that most people in Armenia still don't speak English well enough, unless their goal is to move to the USA. It would be a good idea to learn English anyway.

Also, what other products can Armenia offer for teleworking purposes?


It is a democracy. It's just the old corrupt guard is still controlling too many things.

And yes, we can go and open up the HyeForum political party without any major hurdles. Actually, Armenia somewhat like Italy has many parties right now although only 2-3 are the dominant parties.


If it's so easy to found a political party in Armenia, with all the problems Armenians/Armenia have/has to deal with every day, one would think that 'new', more just, ideas would surface in political circles, offering solutions for those problems. One would think that a trustworthy party with the right ideas (maybe more left ) would easily be able to win elections. But apparently that has not happened yet. Why is that?... is the old corrupt guard standing in the way?


Did I already mention that I am glad to see you back here?


Yes you did and thanks, again, you must be extremely glad to see me back since you keep on welcoming me.



[ December 06, 2002, 01:08 AM: Message edited by: EZ ]




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