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ATATURK and TALAT PASA were FREEMASONS yet committed genocide


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#21 Fadix2

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 03:04 PM

With so-called Armenians like you laughing at the truth of the Armenian genocide, why should anyone expect the Americans or anybody else to recognize the truth that it happened? Tip: when somebody writes "lol" because he has nothing intelligent to say, you know that he's a moron. This is not a personal attack, it's a statistical fact.


lol2! Say something intelligent if you want to recieve an intelligent answer. When you come up with a naive statment such as: We don't have power and money so we must employ the only effective weapon that the weak possesses: truth and justice. You should expect being answered in kind. The only weapon is a strong Armenia and Artsakh and anyone saying anything else is a moron. Period! Kapitch?

#22 Yervant1

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 03:09 PM

lol2! Say something intelligent if you want to recieve an intelligent answer. When you come up with a naive statment such as: We don't have power and money so we must employ the only effective weapon that the weak possesses: truth and justice. You should expect being answered in kind. The only weapon is a strong Armenia and Artsakh and anyone saying anything else is a moron. Period! Kapitch?

I disagree, we need a strong Fadix3! :D

#23 Fadix2

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 03:57 PM

I disagree, we need a strong Fadix3! :D


I can only offer a lol3. :)

#24 Moushegh

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 05:35 PM

This is what we must do. Forget about being nice with American politicians. Run ads daily in major American newspapers exposing the fact that this so-called Christian nation of Americans is the staunchest military and political ally of the abominable Moslem Turks who exterminated Armenians where they could exclusively by rape, torture and the most horrible means of murder available, like impaling, mutilation, hacking to death and burning alive. Millions of human beings like you and me! Rub their ugly faces in their hypocrisy and FORFEIT the Americans' moral authority internationally. This we definitely can with the means we have available. Only, our rich must seek justice instead of money, and our men and women, honor instead of just a job. This is the only way to make the American establishment stop collaborating with the Turks and thereby legitimizing a country and a nation built on the sadistic mass murder of the Armenians. The Americans, at least their corrupt and sick leadership, are not on our side. Since they and Europe are the main props of Turkey, we must hurt them this way to force them to do what is right. I used to love America. I used to defend it and criticize Europe and others. I gave so much of myself to America, I learned to speak their language better than they do. What did America give me in return? Betrayal after betrayal and the tacit approval of MY rape, torture and murder. To hell with such.


Raising awareness and spreading the truth is an option. We must not lose sight of the fact that they own the media [TV, newspapers, magazines, radio, etc.) so right from the start the battlefield will be tilted in their favor, and they will have unlimited resources in this 'information war.' In the end we may be worse off if we cannot match their efforts.

Sov jan, I'm not trying to discourage you, I love your passion and fight, but we have to be realistic, and put our energies and funds into strategies that are actually winnable.

I wish I had some solutions or answers ... :(

#25 Sovereign

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 07:27 PM

Raising awareness and spreading the truth is an option. We must not lose sight of the fact that they own the media [TV, newspapers, magazines, radio, etc.) so right from the start the battlefield will be tilted in their favor, and they will have unlimited resources in this 'information war.' In the end we may be worse off if we cannot match their efforts.

Sov jan, I'm not trying to discourage you, I love your passion and fight, but we have to be realistic, and put our energies and funds into strategies that are actually winnable.

I wish I had some solutions or answers ... :(

Friend,
Fact: we gave millions to American politicians to no avail.
Fact: we NEVER spent a cent saying what I said about American politicians and American foreign policy.
Fact: American foreign policy is anti-Armenian.
Fact: you and I, we are Armenian and I don't accept the condoning, and indirect support, of the torture, rape and murder of Armenians like myself, which is what the Americans are doing.
Fact: You say it's OK to commit genocide on me by tacitly approving it by refusing to call it a genocide? Then you're declaring yourself to be my enemy; you have nothing but contempt for me. YOU'RE EITHER WITH ME OR AGAINST ME. (What's good for the goose is good for the gander.)
Fact: Only those Armenians who are stupid would give a cent to American politicians.
WHAT'S SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND? I'M SAYING KEEP YOUR MONEY AND DON'T GIVE IT TO THE BASTARDS. If you want to spend it, then know that if you used one-tenth of what you give to the American politicians to advertise what I've been saying around here, you would get better results as far as the Armenian cause is concerned. But unfortunately Armenians are conformist cowards and traitors for the most part.
Only morons would feed the enemy. American politicians are our enemies. (They often play good cop bad cop to lure us into supporting them, like Gephardt who now heads a pro-Turkish lobbying company if I recall correctly, and that holocaust survivor (shameful animal!) Jewish congressman who was extremely pro-Turkish for most of his career. What matters is, when the final votes are tallied, it's always a pro-Turkish decision that comes out.) ARE YOU DEAF OR COVERT LOBBYISTS? STOP FEEDING THE ENEMY! All you have to do is NOT give them money! Now explain to me what's NAIVE about that, you insidious, disingenuous types who have nothing intelligent to say. I'm talking about the idiot who is proud of himself for repeatedly saying "lol" like the stupidest Amerigatsi esh.

#26 Moushegh

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 10:32 PM

Friend,
Fact: we gave millions to American politicians to no avail.
Fact: we NEVER spent a cent saying what I said about American politicians and American foreign policy.
Fact: American foreign policy is anti-Armenian.
Fact: you and I, we are Armenian and I don't accept the condoning, and indirect support, of the torture, rape and murder of Armenians like myself, which is what the Americans are doing.
Fact: You say it's OK to commit genocide on me by tacitly approving it by refusing to call it a genocide? Then you're declaring yourself to be my enemy; you have nothing but contempt for me. YOU'RE EITHER WITH ME OR AGAINST ME. (What's good for the goose is good for the gander.)
Fact: Only those Armenians who are stupid would give a cent to American politicians.
WHAT'S SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND? I'M SAYING KEEP YOUR MONEY AND DON'T GIVE IT TO THE BASTARDS. If you want to spend it, then know that if you used one-tenth of what you give to the American politicians to advertise what I've been saying around here, you would get better results as far as the Armenian cause is concerned. But unfortunately Armenians are conformist cowards and traitors for the most part.
Only morons would feed the enemy. American politicians are our enemies. (They often play good cop bad cop to lure us into supporting them, like Gephardt who now heads a pro-Turkish lobbying company if I recall correctly, and that holocaust survivor (shameful animal!) Jewish congressman who was extremely pro-Turkish for most of his career. What matters is, when the final votes are tallied, it's always a pro-Turkish decision that comes out.) ARE YOU DEAF OR COVERT LOBBYISTS? STOP FEEDING THE ENEMY! All you have to do is NOT give them money! Now explain to me what's NAIVE about that, you insidious, disingenuous types who have nothing intelligent to say. I'm talking about the idiot who is proud of himself for repeatedly saying "lol" like the stupidest Amerigatsi esh.



Sov jan,
As far as not giving away our money to American politicians with their hollow promises, I agree. However I don't think its entirely true to say that US foreign policy is "anti-Armenian," I just don't see any evidence of this. It's simply not accurate to say that just because they refuse to recognize the Genocide then their foreign policy is officially anti-Armenian.

Is it morally wrong, YES! Is it shameful, YES! Is it unjust, YES! Is it unfair, YES! But to declare US foreign policy [as a whole] as anti-Armenian is not accurate. I think you'll disagree, but that's just my opinion.

If you say US foreign policy is anti-Iranian, anti-Cuban, anti-Venezuelan, anti-North Korean, that I'd agree with because there is real evidence to prove this. But anti-Armenian? I don't see any real evidence like in the cases of Iran, Cuba, etc.




Here's one point I'd like to get across and then I'll let it go -

You are underestimating the power that politics has on the global scale. It's simply not enough for us to educate the public about the Genocide and the in-justice done onto us. The fact remains, contrary to what people may believe, the politicians rule the world, NOT the people.

Let's say we do what you say - cut off all funding to American, American/Armenian politicians and the various political organizations (e.g., ANCA).
Now ... what do we do if the US dramatically increases military aid to Azerbaijan, trumps up some phony charges to slap us with sanctions, strong-arms other nations to cut off ties with Armenia? What do we do then?
They have the power through politics to starve us out. This is irrefutable.










Btw, for someone to say "speak intelligently" and yet demonstrates this with a condescending remark, followed by a "lol" speaks for itself. Just take that comment with a grain of salt.

#27 Sovereign

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 11:32 PM

Sov jan,
As far as not giving away our money to American politicians with their hollow promises, I agree. However I don't think its entirely true to say that US foreign policy is "anti-Armenian," I just don't see any evidence of this. It's simply not accurate to say that just because they refuse to recognize the Genocide then their foreign policy is officially anti-Armenian.

Is it morally wrong, YES! Is it shameful, YES! Is it unjust, YES! Is it unfair, YES! But to declare US foreign policy [as a whole] as anti-Armenian is not accurate. I think you'll disagree, but that's just my opinion.

If you say US foreign policy is anti-Iranian, anti-Cuban, anti-Venezuelan, anti-North Korean, that I'd agree with because there is real evidence to prove this. But anti-Armenian? I don't see any real evidence like in the cases of Iran, Cuba, etc.




Here's one point I'd like to get across and then I'll let it go -

You are underestimating the power that politics has on the global scale. It's simply not enough for us to educate the public about the Genocide and the in-justice done onto us. The fact remains, contrary to what people may believe, the politicians rule the world, NOT the people.

Let's say we do what you say - cut off all funding to American, American/Armenian politicians and the various political organizations (e.g., ANCA).
Now ... what do we do if the US dramatically increases military aid to Azerbaijan, trumps up some phony charges to slap us with sanctions, strong-arms other nations to cut off ties with Armenia? What do we do then?
They have the power through politics to starve us out. This is irrefutable.










Btw, for someone to say "speak intelligently" and yet demonstrates this with a condescending remark, followed by a "lol" speaks for itself. Just take that comment with a grain of salt.

Friend,
I'll start by answering your last question first. Armenia today is not standing on its own feet by itself. We are not a self-sustaining and viable nation on our own. There would be no Armenia were it not for the Russians and to a lesser extent the Iranians. The flip side is, the US government cannot exert any real influence on our Russian and Iranian friends and force them to act contrary to their national interest even if it chose to do so. So whatever courageous steps Armenians may take which may piss off the current American regime and make them want to retaliate against us, the American government cannot hurt us internationally that way. Most of Armenia's business is conducted regionally and hypothetical US-backed sanctions would be meaningless anyway. I might have a chuckle or two if American politicians tried to sway European opinion against us as well. Even cynical and pragmatic old Europe doesn't buy American trash anymore.
Now in disagreement with you, the following to me spells anti-Armenian US foreign policy, no doubt about it: 1)The US praises Turkey as the model of democracy, liberty and enlightenment to the Moslem world and asks them to emulate the Turks when in fact they are an immoral abomination who built their nation on the genocide they committed against us. US foreign policy is anti-Armenian because by praising and bolstering Turkey it weakens us; by imbuing the Turks with international credibility, the American policy de facto undermines the legitimate Armenian demand for justice and reparation from the Turk. 2)The US government is a staunch military ally of the Turks. They supply them billions worth of tanks, jets and warships. Much of this material was given basically for free to the Turks throughout the cold war. To give guns to the Turk with which they can attack and kill Armenians whom the Americans know are the eternal enemies of the Turks is anti-Armenian. 3)American ex-Army men and assorted mercenaries are already training the Azeri military to the best of my knowledge which couldn't have happened without tacit approval and sanctioning of the American government. (I'm not sure but I think that the Americans are selling arms to the Azeris as well nowadays?) To help the Azeris militarily or even economically is part and parcel of an anti-Armenian policy knowing there's nothing those monsters would like to do more than exterminating us.
Thank you for voicing your opinions which I respect.

#28 Moushegh

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Posted 06 May 2010 - 08:35 AM

Sov jan,

Okay, I wasn't sure if you were suggesting that we totally 'go-it-alone' or just cut ties with the US and reroute our monies into other nations which may produce better results for us. Russia and Iran both consider us as an important geo-political ally, I think its safe to assume that Russia will back us militarily in case of foreign invasion, however I don't believe Iran provided any support to us in the Artsakh war. If we were to take some of the monies poured into the US and direct that to Iran, I wonder if we could count on them for military support ...
Cuba has fared fairly well by resisting US "help." I wonder if we would do as well as Cuba has done?

What you are suggesting does have some logic and may be very worthwhile, considering that our current strategies have yielded very little if anything at all. Georgia tried to cut ties with Russia and join forces with the US and look at what happened to them; they nearly destroyed themselves by instigating a ridiculous and un-winnable war against Russia.





1)The US praises Turkey as the model of democracy, liberty and enlightenment to the Moslem world and asks them to emulate the Turks when in fact they are an immoral abomination who built their nation on the genocide they committed against us. US foreign policy is anti-Armenian because by praising and bolstering Turkey it weakens us; by imbuing the Turks with international credibility, the American policy de facto undermines the legitimate Armenian demand for justice and reparation from the Turk.
2)The US government is a staunch military ally of the Turks. They supply them billions worth of tanks, jets and warships. Much of this material was given basically for free to the Turks throughout the cold war. To give guns to the Turk with which they can attack and kill Armenians whom the Americans know are the eternal enemies of the Turks is anti-Armenian.
3)American ex-Army men and assorted mercenaries are already training the Azeri military to the best of my knowledge which couldn't have happened without tacit approval and sanctioning of the American government.


You've almost convinced me, US foreign policy is certainly not pro-Armenia, and under the surface may be anti-Armenian, i.e., protocols. It may not be as simple as that and there may be more to it, but you've made a pretty compelling case.




Thank you for voicing your opinions which I respect.

Likewise. :)

#29 MosJan

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 05:29 PM

see anmoruk -

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#30 MosJan

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 05:33 PM

this  same  Freemason lodge also  uses Anmoruk as symbol

:"The Story Behind Forget Me Not Emblem!
Posted on December 11, 2009 by Alexander

In the years between World War 1 and World War 2 The blue Forget Me Not Emblem (Das Vergissmeinnicht) was a standard symbol used by most charitable organizations in Germany, with a very clear meaning: “Do not forget the poor and the destitute“.

It was first introduced in German Masonry in 1926, well before the Nazi era, at the annual Communication of the Grand Lodge Zur Sonne, in Bremen, where it was distributed to all the participants. That was a terrible time in Germany, economically speaking, further aggravated in 1929 following that year’s Great Depression.

That economic situation, contributed to Hitler’s accession to power. Many people depended on charity, some of which was Masonic. Distributing the forget-me-not at the Grand Lodge Communication was meant to remind German Brethren of the charitable activities of the Grand Lodge.

In early 1934, it became evident that Freemasonry was in danger.  In that same year, the Grand Lodge of the Sun (one of the pre-war German Grand Lodges, located in Bayreuth) realising the grave dangers involved, adopted the little blue Forget Me Not flower as a substitute for the traditional square and compasses.

It was felt the flower would provide brethren with an outward means of identification while lessening the risk of possible recognition in public by the Nazis, who were engaged in wholesale confiscation of all Masonic Lodge properties. Freemasonry went undercover, and this delicate flower assumed its role as a symbol of Masonry surviving throughout the reign of darkness.

In 1936 the Winterhilfswerk (a non- Masonic winter charity drive) held a collection and used and distributed the same symbol, again with its obvious charitable connotation. Some of the Masons who remembered the 1926 Communication possibly also wore it later as a sign of recognition. We have no evidence of that and its general signification still was charity, but not specifically Masonic charity.

During the ensuing decade of Nazi power a little blue Forget Me Not flower worn in a Brother’s lapel served as one method whereby brethren could identify each other in public (although even then it was not always safe to wear any non-Nazi pin), and in cities and concentration camps throughout Europe. The Forget Me Not distinguished the lapels of countless brethren who staunchly refused to allow the symbolic Light of Masonry to be completely extinguished.

When the Grand Lodge of the Sun was reopened in Bayreuth in 1947, by Past Grand Master  Beyer, a little pin in the shape of a Forget Me Not was officially adopted as the emblem of that first annual convention of the brethren who had survived the bitter years of semi-darkness to rekindle the Masonic Light.

At the first Annual Convent of the new United Grand Lodges Of Germany AF&AM (VGLvD), in 1948 Bro. Theodor Vogel, Master of the Lodge “Zum weißen Gold am Kornberg”, in Selb (then in Western-occupied Germany), remembered the 1926 and 1936 pin, had a few hundred made and started handing it out as a Masonic symbol wherever he went. When Brother Vogel was later elected GM of the Grand Lodge AFuAM of Germany and visited a Grand Masters’ conference in Washington, DC, he distributed.



#31 MosJan

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 05:33 PM

But is the story True?

Information about the Masonic tradition surrounding the blue forget me not amounts to very little. It is true that the flower was used by some German Masons about 1926, and it appears likely that in March 1938 some of them did wear it again as a Nazi badge, even though by an extraordinary coincidence, it had been chosen as a Masonic emblem twelve years earlier. It is likely not true that it was ever worn after March 1938 as a secret mean of recognition.

However, even if many German Masons (together with the great majority of German citizens of that time) never objected to the Nazi politics and went so far as to support Hitler, some were brave enough to fight him openly.

Based on the membership of all the then existing German Lodges, it is likely that around 1 or 2%. Out of the 174 Lodges which participated in the creation of the first United Grand Lodge of Germany, five only belonged to the Symbolical Grand Lodge of 1930, the only German Grand Lodge which resisted Hitler.

For human and political reasons as well, those Masons who thought it their duty to rebuild German Freemasonry once the War was over could hardly tell the whole truth to their foreign brethren. I personally believe they might have told the story of those dark years in a different way, but I am ready to admit that it is probably easier to say so in 2009 than it was in the 1950s.

Accordingly a legend was born. Not the legend of the forget-me-not, but that of a German Freemasonry too weak to resist, banned as soon as Hitler became Chancellor of the Reich, wearing a badge on the streets and – of all things ! – in concentration camps. That legend was likely born as the result of an unconscious effort to inhibit the past as well as a conscious manoeuvre. It was believed not only because it was the logical thing to do, but also because it was reassuring to imagine Freemasons acting according to their ideals, fighting for freedom and defending it.

Lets keep it at that and let us admit to the Masonic Brotherhood of the blue Forget Me Not  and thus did a simple flower blossom forth into a symbol of the fraternity, and become perhaps the most widely worn emblem among Freemasons in Germany.

In the years since adoption, its significance world-wide has been attested to by the tens of thousands of brethren who now display it with meaningful pride.
This entry was posted in Masonic History and tagged Das Vergissmeinnicht, Forget Me Not, Freemasonry, Freemasonry in Nazi Germany, German Freemasonry, Germany by Alexander. Bookmark the permalink.



#32 MosJan

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 05:34 PM

$_57.JPG



#33 MosJan

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 05:35 PM

Masonic_forget-me-not_flower.jpg



#34 MosJan

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 05:35 PM

51jwngPMH5L._SX355_.jpg



#35 MosJan

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 05:59 PM

do we still wish to use  AnmoRuk as centennial symbol ???

ok

 

how  about f  talat  enver and  jemel  also  used  that ??



#36 MosJan

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Posted 29 August 2023 - 04:09 PM






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