Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Once our alphabet had 22 letters


  • Please log in to reply
8 replies to this topic

#1 man

man

    Member

  • Banned
  • PipPipPip
  • 846 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 18 June 2013 - 07:29 AM

Posted Image

The 22 letters of Armenian, pre-Mashtocian alphabet, known as “Daniel’s script”

Translated from Russian.
An Armenian Alphabet Before St. Mesrop: Bishop Daniel’s Script

In 1892, I. Haroutyunian in his study suggested an idea that “Daniel’s Script” proves existence of the original alphabet of the ancient Armenians in the pagan period. In the article “On the issue of the Armenian pre-Mashtots literature” Abrahamian G.A. supports this point of view. German scientist Armenologist Joseph Marquart presumed that “the writings of Daniel” in due time could have been used to create written records and to translate.

According to the records of historical sources, “Danielian script” was an ancient pattern of lost Armenian scripts. But in the V century it was no longer able to adequately capture the Armenian of those days. According to Koryun, it was the writings of Armenian alphabet, found by Syrian Bishop Daniel, and dated back to the earlier historical period:

“After many days of being there for the same (business), he came to the Holy Catholicos of Armenia, named Sahak, who approved his thoughts and expressed willingness to help him in that care. And in the perfect accord they hastened to raise fervent prayers to God, to call coming upon all (men) the Salvation of Christ. And they had been doing that for many days. Then they were granted with concerned of the country (Armenia) the blessed brothers` Council meeting by the all-merciful God, in order to create an alphabet for Armenian people. For a long time they were engaged in inquiries and searches and have undergone many challenges, then they notified the king of the Armenian Vramshapouh about their ceaseless search. Then the king told them about some Syrian, decent bishop named Daniel, who suddenly had found the letters of Armenian alphabet. And when the king told about the finding, they persuaded the king of their acquisition. Then the king sent some Vagrich with a royal charter to a certain priest Abel, attendant of Syrian bishop Daniel. Upon learning of the request, Abel immediately came to Daniel and first inquired of Daniel about those writings, and then took them and sent the king Vramshapouh to Armenia. And he (Vagrich) brought (letters) in the fifth year of his reign. The king, having received the writings from Abel, becane very happy with St. Sahak and Mashtots. Then the Blessed Guardians having taken suddenly found (letters), yet asked the king the young men in order to be able to apply (in fact) the letters. And when many of them have learned, (the king) ordered to teach the same (writings) everywhere. Thus the blessed (Mashtots) was awarded the title of excellent Vardapet. About two years he has taught and conducted (classes) of these letters. But when it became clear that these writings are not sufficient to express (all) syllables of the Armenian language, as these letters were buried under other writings and (then) revitalised, then they again began trying the same thing for some time and looking for solution (of the situation).”

According to Khorenatsi, these “writings” were inscribed in ancient times and arranged in order of the Greek alphabet:
“At that time Arkady fell ill and in Byzantium through John the Great were big waves and fires, Greek state was plunged into turmoil, the troops fought each other and with the Persians. Therefore, Vram commanded our king Vramshapouh go down to Mesopotamia, restore order and judge the officials of both sides. He went and brought everything in order, but experienced a lot of difficulties due to the secretary, as since Mesrop left the royal court, there was no one experienced scribe, because the Persian Letters were used. On this occasion, t some priest named Habel introduced himself the king and promised to get for the Armenian language the writings, adapted by his friend Bishop Daniel. The king did not pay attention to it, but arriving in Armenia, he found all the bishops gathered at Sahak the Great and Mesrop in concerns about the invention of the Armenian alphabet. That was reported to the king, and he transferred them the words of the monk. Hearing that, they asked him to get down to this so important business. So he sent as a herald one of the venerable men of the country, close to him person, named Vahrich, from the Haduni clan. Going along, they have learned firmly from Daniel a number of letters inscribed in ancient times in order of the Greek (alphabet), and on return handed them Sahak and Mesrop. Having acquainted with them and trying to teach some boys, they came to the conclusion that these writings, with its letters received as the alms, were not enough for an accurate expression of sounds, pronouncing in the Armenian language.”
http://www.armenians...daniels-script/
======================================
By Gevork Nazaryan, Armenologist, Historian

Did Armenians have and use an alphabet before as the common knowledge tells us Mesrop Mashtots “created” an Armenian alphabet? There is evidence that comes to support such an assertion.

One of the Classical accounts about the existence of an Armenian alphabet comes from Philo of Alexandria (20 BCE – 50 CE), who in his writings notes that the work of the renowned Greek philosopher and historian Metrodorus of Scepsis ( ca. 145 BCE – 70 BCE),On Animals, was also translated into Armenian. Metrodorus was a close friend and a court historian of the Armenian Emperor Tigranes the Great. Amongst his great works, Metrodorus also wrote the biography of the King of Kings, Tigranes the Great. Another Third Century Roman History and Church theologian, Hyppolytus of Rome (170-235 CE), in his Chronicle, while writing about the history of the reign of his contemporary, Emperor Alexander Severus (reigned 208-235 CE), mentions that the Armenians are amongst those nations who have their own distinct alphabet.

Philostratus the Athenian, a renowned sophist of Second and Third centuries AD in his The Life of Apollonius of Tyana, wrote:
“And they say that a pard was once caught in Pamphylia which was wearing a chain round its neck, and the chain was of gold, and on it was inscribed in Armenian lettering: ‘The king Arsaces to the Nysian god.’” (Philostratus, The Life of Apollonius of Tyana, Book II, Chapter II, pp. 120-121, tr. by F. C. Conybeare, 1912)

According to the Fifth Century Armenian Historian Movses of Khoren, Bardesanes (154-222 CE) of Edessa, who founded the Gnostic current of the Bardaisanites, went to the Armenian castle of Ani and there read the work of a pre-Christian, Armenian priest by the name of Voghyump, written in the Mithraic (Mehean or Mihrean lit. of Mihr or of Mithra – the Armenian national God of Light, Truth and the Sun) script of the Armenian temples in which, amongst other histories, an episode was noted of the Armenian King Tigranes VII (reigned from 144-161, and again 164-186 CE) erecting a monument on the tomb of his brother, the Mithraic High Priest of the Kingdom of Greater Armenia, Mazhan. Movses of Khoren notes that the renowned scholar Bardesanes, translated this Armenian book into Syriac (Aramaic), and later also into Greek. Another important evidence for the existence of a pre-Mashtotsian alphabet is the fact that the Armenian heathen pantheon included Tir, who was the Patron God of Writing and Science.

A 13th century Armenian historian, Vardan Areveltsi, in his History, notes that during the reign of the Armenian King Leo the Magnificent (reigned 1187-1219), artifacts were found bearing “Armenian inscriptions of the heathen kings of the ancient times…” The evidence that the Armenian scholars of the Middle Ages knew about the existence of a pre-Mashtotsian alphabet can also be found in other medieval works, including the first book composed in Mashtotsian alphabet by the pupil of Mashtots, Koriwn, in the first half of the Fifth Century. Koriwn notes that Mashtots was told of the existence of ancient Armenian letters which he was initially trying to integrate into his own alphabet.
Most of the ancient artifacts have either been lost or destroyed in the ravages of time. We must remember that what we have today and what we know is merely a few percent of the total accumulated cultural heritage of many millennia. Therefore, it is only a matter of time that new evidence, including various artifacts, including possibly ones baring inscriptions made in Pre-Mashtotsian, “mehean” script would perhaps be unearthed, and thus, would further shed light on this important topic and come to complete the written evidence that is currently at our disposal that speaks in favor of the existence of a pre-Mashtotsian Armenian alphabet.
Gevork Nazaryan, Armenologist, Historian (http://www.armenianh...ndex_light.html)

#2 Arpa

Arpa

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,011 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Culture

Posted 18 June 2013 - 09:13 AM

Dear MAN, please read the forum before airing BULLSHITS, yes I said BULLSHIT like this.
Please read the following; See #5 here.
http://hyeforum.com/...044#entry149248

#3 Arpa

Arpa

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,011 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Culture

Posted 18 June 2013 - 09:53 AM

And please do tell us. If in fact we had a Pre-Mashtots script, then why were we using Assyrian and Greek scripts, not Danielian in our (church) liturgy and literature?

Edited by Arpa, 18 June 2013 - 09:56 AM.

  • Johannes likes this

#4 Johannes

Johannes

    Յովհաննէս

  • Nobility
  • 2,898 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:AlÚp, Syrie

Posted 18 June 2013 - 10:27 AM

I wish to see just one Armenian sentence, written with premashtotsian Armenian alphabet.

Edited by Johannes, 18 June 2013 - 10:30 AM.


#5 man

man

    Member

  • Banned
  • PipPipPip
  • 846 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 18 June 2013 - 11:54 AM

This subject requires further studies specially why ancient Armenians stopped using their 22 letters alphabet in old times and how it was lost. Certainly foreign influences had their affects, specially foreign alphabets. Then 22 letters would not have been enough to put all Armenian sounds into alphabetic symbols; the matter was either to abandon it or update it. Is is then possible that it was abandoned?
Being open-minded gives one the way to grow while being close-minded puts you in hen's coop with all the chicken droppings.

#6 Johannes

Johannes

    Յովհաննէս

  • Nobility
  • 2,898 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:AlÚp, Syrie

Posted 18 June 2013 - 12:40 PM

I think ancient Armenians never used an alphabet of 22 letters.
May be Aramaeans used it. The names of two nations; Aramaeans and Armenians are too similar.

#7 Johannes

Johannes

    Յովհաննէս

  • Nobility
  • 2,898 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:AlÚp, Syrie

Posted 18 June 2013 - 12:43 PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arameans


https://en.wikipedia...Syriac_language

#8 Arpa

Arpa

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,011 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Culture

Posted 18 June 2013 - 07:27 PM

This subject requires further studies specially why ancient Armenians stopped using their 22 letters alphabet in old times and how it was lost.
===
[size=6][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Being open-minded gives one the way to grow while
being close-minded puts you in hen's coop with all the chicken droppings.

You said chicken droppings, I didn’t. I would have said Goat droppings. See why below.
There are hundreds of fables about pre-Mashtots writing, and how Lousavorich destroyed them all, we have yet to see even one evidence. How is it that Grigor, who erased every vestige of pre-Christian Armenia, missed the pagan hearth at the basement of Ejmiatsin, right under the Altar? See picture #4 here
http://ejmiatsin.blogspot.com/
Like Johannes said above . Show us even one word written in the Danielian alphabet, or any pre Maashtots script.
Goat Script, Armenian hieroglyphics, that are widely spread all over Armenia. For all I know, they may have been chiseled by Neanderthals.**
http://www.aras.am/A...astronomy/3.jpg
Posted Image
The above is known as Aytsegir, Goat script in Armenian.
More here;
http://www.google.co...iw=1052&bih=420

There is no evidence that Armenians had any system of writing, in the modern sense except the above Aytsegir hieroglyphics, Goat Script, Rock etchings. ,
** http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lascaux
According to the above those drawings are 17,000 years old, How old are the Armenian Rock carvings?

Edited by Arpa, 18 June 2013 - 07:31 PM.


#9 Arpa

Arpa

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,011 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Culture

Posted 18 June 2013 - 07:44 PM

How old are they?
Also see here about Goat Writings
http://hyeforum.com/...?showtopic=4479

Edited by Arpa, 18 June 2013 - 07:45 PM.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users