Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

GAVUR/GAVAR


  • Please log in to reply
25 replies to this topic

#1 Arpa

Arpa

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,011 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Culture

Posted 19 August 2002 - 12:06 PM

re "gavur" (turkish spelling)
yes, i had missed that one. i'm not proud of it myself (i very innocently used the term "gavuristan" referring to europe, not meaning anything bad, until my ex-fiancé banned it), but believe it or not, i know of turkish armenians who use the
term "gavur" in reference to the europeans, especially in conversations with us. in turkey the use of the term (apart from being disapproved of on grounds of political correctness) is gradually shifting in use from "infidel" to "european" or actually "anyone who doesn't like us: the uk is a "dost" if it supports our eu aspirations, and germany "gavur" if it doesn't.

cheers,
--------------------
ali suat

=====

Gavur, gavar, kafir, kafar, kafr, kufur.

Forgive me if I use any "kufur" words.

Look who is calling who what?!
It is reminiscent of the adage: "the kettle calling the pot black". Or, in a more picturesque style that only a Turk is capable of; "boklu da chamurluya gulior" (the shitty laughig at the muddy).

Since there was no native word for "blaspheme/swear" in the Armenian we (we did not need one until we met you know who) had to borrow and we use "kur anel/kufrel" to mean such.

Gavar in the Armenian means district. Even though Ajarian dismisses the fact that it is very similar to the Hebrew/Aramaic "kafar" (village/town) I believe there may be a connection. In many ME languages "kar/kafr" means village/town.
Look at this;http://www.sebcsyria...iveoil/co31.htm
Ther is a village near Aleppo by that name. It literally means Village of Eden. Of course, an oasis in an otherwise arid dsert would be called such a nameme.
Take another look at this;http://www.hti.umich...&size=First 100
Look at Luke 4 in particular.
(I didn't know that "physician heal thyself" was a biblical quote!)
Of course, Capernaum is another form of Kafar Naum to mean the village/town of Naum.

Just as in the Armenian, "kafar/kafr" means village/town/district.
Leave it to another xenophobic people to corrupt such an innocent word to mean such a damning one. This is not unique to Arabic/Islam.
Consider such words as "pagan" which is simply from the Latin "pagano/paisan" to mean village/town folk that ended up meaning a blaspheme. According to the Websters the word "heathen" is from the Armenian "hetanos" ("it sounds Greek to me"). It is based on "ethnos/people", yet it took the most xenophobic of all xenophobes to twist such an innocuous word to mean such an ominous one. The corruption of the word is based on the fact that any ethnos other than "chosen ethnos" was a heathen. You get the idea.

Who the hell are you to call us "gavur/infidel".
Non-believer?
Non believer of what?
If you mean we are non believers of that hilarious concept of Islam then I'd rather be a "gavur". What a caricature!! See the cover story of Newsweek Aug. 12 about heaven. Of all the comedic descriptions the Moslem one is the most comical. Seventy two virgins in waiting with their legs spread eagle??!! It does not say anything about 72 warriors in waiting with swords unsheathed as a reward for the virtuous "virgins" of this world. Yet, today some people are wreaking havoc in this world, blowing up themselves, flying planes into buildings while reciting inanities about inheriting heaven, believeing that that plane will fly them directly to heaven into the bosom of those 72 virgins.

You call us "gavur/infidel". If that is what a "believers'" idea of heaven then I'd rather... GO TO HELL.
And, Mr. Bush tried so hard to characterize Islam as a tolerant and compassionate faith. I am not the emperor of China. I don't have to be PC. I'd call that "pure Bush sh...".

Coming back to Luke 4.
"Physician heal thyself".
Don't let me "kufur" any more than I already have.

Look who is calling whom a gavur/kafir"!!

#2 Arpa

Arpa

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,011 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Culture

Posted 19 August 2002 - 12:15 PM

Here are those URLs. For some reason they did not register above.
http://www.sebcsyria...iveoil/co31.htm

http://www.hti.umich...&size=First 100

#3 aurguplu

aurguplu

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 623 posts
  • Location:istanbul, turkey
  • Interests:languages, history, archaeology, art, art history , natural history 6 nature

Posted 21 August 2002 - 05:42 AM

arpa,

the word "gavur", though sounding like "kafir" actually comes from old persian "gabr" which meant a zoroastrian priest (or something zoroastrian). i am not for calling people "infidel" or anything, especially seriously in a derogatory sense, and i don't condone such usage.

re "boklu da çamurluya gülüyor": it's wonderful! i had never neard that one. it must be one of those eastern anatolian dialects that use it. we in istanbul are more refined and say "tencere dibin kara seninki benden kara". you would agree, wouldn't you, that you cannot pronounce yours in polite society.

cheers,

#4 Arpa

Arpa

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,011 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Culture

Posted 21 August 2002 - 08:00 AM

quote:
Originally posted by aurguplu:
arpa,

the word "gavur", though sounding like "kafir" actually comes from old persian "gabr" which meant a zoroastrian priest (or something zoroastrian). i am not for calling people "infidel" or anything, especially seriously in a derogatory sense, and i don't condone such usage.

re "boklu da çamurluya gülüyor": it's wonderful! i had never neard that one. it must be one of those eastern anatolian dialects that use it. we in istanbul are more refined and say "tencere dibin kara seninki benden kara". you would agree, wouldn't you, that you cannot pronounce yours in polite society.

cheers,

"tencere..." is borrowed from the "pot calling the kettle black". The Armenian version is "mrot@ tsekhotin a khndoum"(The sooty is laghing at the muddy)
I'll have to take your word as to the origin of the word "gavur" as I cannot corroborate it. The clozest I can come is the Armenian word "qavor" (note, spelled with the hard Q) which genarlly is used to decribe a godfathre( at baptism) or a best man (at weddings). It may have some connection to Zoroastrian.
However, regardless of the etymology it is a fact that "gavur" ie used as an alterante to "kafir" i.e infidel.
Let me repeat; Of course you don't call anybody an "infidel" and neither do I as I believe in very little if at all, but look at your co-denominationals that paint the whole world with the briad brush of "kafir/ Infidel", infidel/non-believer to which nonsensical gobble-di-gook, that Allah is akbar or God is the greatest??
Ohhh!! The crimes that are committed in the name of that "idiot".
He will forgive as he is omniscient and knows what I mean.

#5 Arpa

Arpa

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,011 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Culture

Posted 21 August 2002 - 10:30 AM

quote:
Originally posted by aurguplu:
arpa,
re "boklu da çamurluya gülüyor": it's wonderful! i had never neard that one. it must be one of those eastern anatolian dialects that use it.

cheers,

See what you get hiding in the back alleys, or the front ones of Istanbul? You forget your genuine heritage. We know this for a fact, it happened to us. We not only lost our ancestral hritage but we also lost a couple of eggs between our legs when we abandoned our ancestral lands and moved to the musty, stinky and damp backrooms of Istanbul. Then, realizing this we began to write about it. Our literature of the era is full of nostalgia and sorrow. Every poet and writer of the era has a piece about it including Ruben Sevak, Varuzhan and even Zohrab.
However, beside the nostalgia and the sorrow there is also evidence of inevitable decadence of the big city. Many of our writers have in some way alluded to hashish. Petros Turian, Medzarents and even Varuzhan come to mind.
Turian's Gishern Anush E, (The Night is Sweet) opens this way;
"Gishern anush e, gishern heshtagin
Hashishov odzun ou balasanov..."

The night is sweet, the night sensuous
Hashish annointed and with balasan.


Varuzhan has a rather long poem simply titled Hashish, although it is in no way a glorification and condonement it is a reflection on the customs of the time. Every time I read it I reminded of the story that I heard some time ago that in the Arabian countries where many Persians would migrate for better pay and better life some of them would be arrested as addicts and incarcerated. These wretched souls, in their agony of withdrawal would stay up all night crying; "Tryaaaak, tryaaak"!!
Varuzhan's poem is a stylization of the above;
"Sirt@ letsun e banti khavarov.
Al dasht ou erkinq chkan ir hamar
Pit gner achqi hazar goharov
Astgh m'an nuynisk asoup al @llar"


On hashish bereq, k@ mrmnje an..."

His heart is filled with the dark of prison
There are no fields or skies for him anymore
He would like to sleep with thousands of gems
Even if that were none but a shooting star.


Oh! Bring me hashish, he roars with deep breath...

Varuzhan does not allude as to who the addict is and neither he reveals his ethnicity. It could have been any Istanbulian.

#6 Boghos

Boghos

    -= Mr Nobility =-

  • Nobility
  • 1,754 posts
  • Location:Brazil
  • Interests:literature, cinema, chess, history

Posted 21 August 2002 - 10:45 AM

There is an interesting article about "gavur" at the very end of this page: http://www.ozgurpoli...15/allkosb.html

I just don´t know if it is legal for Ali to read it...

#7 Arpa

Arpa

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,011 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Culture

Posted 21 August 2002 - 11:20 PM

quote:
Originally posted by aurguplu:
arpa,

the word "gavur", though sounding like "kafir" actually comes from old persian "gabr" which meant a zoroastrian priest (or something zoroastrian). i am not for calling people "infidel" or anything, especially seriously in a derogatory sense, and i don't condone such usage.

cheers,

Of course you wouldn't, and neither would I repeat some of the dictionary definitions of a Turk.
Truth will be heard "from the mouth of babes". My cousin went on a "pilgrimage" to Anatolia, they travelled all the way from Marsah to Ani, her mother being of Zeituntsi heritage she mad e a point to also visit there. She spoke to some people, none of them would respond to her questions except for a 10 year old boy. I have this on video tape. Standing in front of a steep precipice when asked if he knew anything about Ermenis and what had happened there the boy responds; "Burda savash oldu, turkler ve 'gavurlarin' arasinda. Turkler uttu, 'gavurlarin anasini s....k, gebertdik, bu daghdan ashaghi attik".
(There was a war here between the Turks and the "gavurs". We won, we f....'d their mothers, we killed them[as if an animal] and we threw them down this pricipce".
Dear Ali, if you don't condone and utter such words where does a 10 year old learn it from?

#8 Arpa

Arpa

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,011 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Culture

Posted 21 August 2002 - 11:28 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Boghos:
There is an interesting article about "gavur" at the very end of this page
I just don´t know if it is legal for Ali to read it...

Very good Boghos. I'll save that article with all the cliches about gavur. However they left one out; "Gavurun son akli benim olsun"(I wish I could have the gavur's last thought/idea). It is another version of monday morning quarterbacking.
BTW; Is that site Kurdish?

#9 Boghos

Boghos

    -= Mr Nobility =-

  • Nobility
  • 1,754 posts
  • Location:Brazil
  • Interests:literature, cinema, chess, history

Posted 21 August 2002 - 11:44 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Arpa:
quote:
Originally posted by Boghos:
There is an interesting article about "gavur" at the very end of this page
I just don´t know if it is legal for Ali to read it...

Very good Boghos. I'll save that article with all the cliches about gavur. However they left one out; "Gavurun son akli benim olsun"(I wish I could have the gavur's last thought/idea). It is another version of monday morning quarterbacking.
BTW; Is that site Kurdish?

Yes, it is a Kurdish site.

#10 SAS

SAS

    -= Nobility =-

  • Nobility
  • 656 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Moscow

Posted 22 August 2002 - 11:08 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Arpa:
Turian's Gishern Anush E, (The Night is Sweet) opens this way;
"Gishern anush e, gishern heshtagin
Hashishov odzun ou balasanov..."


Arpa,

hamenayn deps Metsarenc...

#11 aurguplu

aurguplu

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 623 posts
  • Location:istanbul, turkey
  • Interests:languages, history, archaeology, art, art history , natural history 6 nature

Posted 22 August 2002 - 11:28 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Arpa:
quote:
Originally posted by aurguplu:
arpa,

the word "gavur", though sounding like "kafir" actually comes from old persian "gabr" which meant a zoroastrian priest (or something zoroastrian). i am not for calling people "infidel" or anything, especially seriously in a derogatory sense, and i don't condone such usage.

cheers,

Of course you wouldn't, and neither would I repeat some of the dictionary definitions of a Turk.
Truth will be heard "from the mouth of babes". My cousin went on a "pilgrimage" to Anatolia, they travelled all the way from Marsah to Ani, her mother being of Zeituntsi heritage she mad e a point to also visit there. She spoke to some people, none of them would respond to her questions except for a 10 year old boy. I have this on video tape. Standing in front of a steep precipice when asked if he knew anything about Ermenis and what had happened there the boy responds; "Burda savash oldu, turkler ve 'gavurlarin' arasinda. Turkler uttu, 'gavurlarin anasini s....k, gebertdik, bu daghdan ashaghi attik".
(There was a war here between the Turks and the "gavurs". We won, we f....'d their mothers, we killed them[as if an animal] and we threw them down this pricipce".
Dear Ali, if you don't condone and utter such words where does a 10 year old learn it from?

dear arpa,

you can have many such experiences in many parts of turkey. the place was like the former yugoslavia at the point of breaking up. it exploded like a powderkeg, and some rather sombre aspects of human nature became prevalent.

in western parts of the country, there are a very large number of greek churches (i saw some in mudanya) in the most pitiful state: the lead of the roof being removed, the structure starts to leak, and the columns begin to crack. the places were used for decades for "good nights out" (=rakı içip karı oynatmak) and a group of guy i know who undertook to restore one of them spent a week removing the bottles out of the church!

of course when you ask people why they do it and whether they would enjoy seeing a mosque in such a state, they promptly reply that they already have (their own mosque back in the old country, which is either greece or the balkans). what can you say there? i say things like we should not answer wrong with wrong, but as we say in turkish "öfke baldan tatlıdır" and it is unleashed. (mind you, it is only recently (since özal) that we have been able to discuss such issues and drum differently relatively freely.)

but of course, many turks, including those who say such things as the one you related above, feel very much ashamed when they are told that the person they are talking to is a "gavur". there is a perception that what was done was wrong. this is why i maintain that it is always better to bring the conflicting parties physically together, because it is when the other party to the conflict is not around that the harshest things are said behind them. when they are around, it inevitably has a civilising effect.

cheers,

#12 aurguplu

aurguplu

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 623 posts
  • Location:istanbul, turkey
  • Interests:languages, history, archaeology, art, art history , natural history 6 nature

Posted 22 August 2002 - 11:34 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Boghos:
There is an interesting article about "gavur" at the very end of this page: http://www.ozgurpoli...15/allkosb.html

I just don´t know if it is legal for Ali to read it...

dear boghos,

of course it is, and i have. there is quite a lot of stuff in the same vein in turkey freely available.

cheers,

#13 Caucasian

Caucasian

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 91 posts
  • Location:Ankara, Turkey
  • Interests:Football, policy, history, languages, music...

Posted 31 August 2003 - 09:48 AM

QUOTE FROM THE FIRST MESSAGE

It is reminiscent of the adage: "the kettle calling the pot black". Or, in a more picturesque style that only a Turk is capable of; "boklu da chamurluya gulior" (the shitty laughig at the muddy).

The real is "boklu sidikliye güler". It means "s**tty laughs at the peemaker". Similar to "snake laughes to the camel, but it doesn't see its own curvature"

#14 Arpa

Arpa

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,011 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Culture

Posted 31 August 2003 - 10:10 AM

QUOTE FROM THE FIRST MESSAGE

It is reminiscent of the adage: "the kettle calling the pot black". Or, in a more picturesque style that only a Turk is capable of; "boklu da chamurluya gulior" (the shitty laughig at the muddy).

The real is "boklu sidikliye güler". It means "s**tty laughs at the peemaker". Similar to "snake laughes to the camel, but it doesn't see its own curvature"

They asked the camel why his neck was do crooked?
He asked back: "Compared to which part of my physique"?
They asked a Turk why he (his idetnity)was so confused?
He answered: "Compared to whom? The Armenian"? :P :D

#15 Caucasian

Caucasian

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 91 posts
  • Location:Ankara, Turkey
  • Interests:Football, policy, history, languages, music...

Posted 31 August 2003 - 10:56 AM

Arpa, it seems that you know tha Turkish language. I will write the same things in Turkish and English.

1- Senin nick'inin Tuerkce anlami "barley". Bunu biliyor muydun???

2- Sadece Ermeniler Tuerklerin baska irklarla karismis oldugunu soeylemiyor. Bunu Yunanlilar da soeylueyorlar.

3- Senin yazdigin soez benim dedigimden ayri. Ve dogru cevap "nerem dogru ki" olmaliydi. Bilerek yanlis yazdin ki ikinciyi yazabilesin.

ENGLISH PART :

1- Your nickname's Turkish meaning is barley.

2- Not only the Armenians say that Turks are mixed with other races. Greeks tell this in every opportunity, too.

3- The 1st couple you write is separate from what I say. And the answer is "which part of me is straight". You wrote it wrong in order to write the second.

#16 Arpa

Arpa

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,011 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Culture

Posted 31 August 2003 - 01:56 PM

My apologies to those who have already seen this.
Here is what I wrote some time ago, Jan. 02 to be exact.
Below the original in bold with some additions.
Movses, you asked; Inch e nshanakum Arpa?
On the surface Arpa is a river, no, two rivers. One, also known as Arevelyan Arpa originates at the highlands of Artsakh, flows south west through Armenia, enters Naxijevan and pours into the Arax. At the present there is a project ro combine it with Vorotan creating the Arpa-Vorotan canal/tunnel diverting it towards Lake Sevan.
The other, better known as Akhourian in Armenian originates at Lake Arpi, flows southward along the Turkish Armenian border, also eventually joing Arax. This latter river is known as Arpa Chay (ArpaCay)by the Turks.Their contention is to make it Turkish based on the fact that "arpa" is in fact a Turkish word meaning barley (gari). This cannot be further from reality.

"Arpa" is the batsarakan holov (ablative case) of arp, among the other holovs- arp, arpi, arpa, arpov.
It is all derived from "arp" which originally meant "ether", the vacuum between the earth and the sun, stratosphere. In time the root word fell into disuse and the more common derivative "arpi" survived but this time to exclusively mean the sun.
Why were these rivers named Arpa. i.e. "from the sun"?
I personally witnessed a scene that made it clear as the (light)Sun. I was looking up a small creek next to Geghart. It was midmorning, as I looked up to see where it came from I was almost blinded, the sun was so huge and bright and as I looked up it seemed like the the stream was trickling right from the sun as if it was being squeezed out of it. No wonder the natives called it Arpa Get and held it to be sacred as in those days the sun was the source of all life, just as it is today, and it is sacred.

There are many variations of "arp", the most common being Arpi, a popular feminine and name. There seem to be no masculine counterpart except maybe Arpiar ??. Even more popular is Arpine(h) which brings us to the question why many Armenian feminine nouns and names end in "e" or "eh", as in Nane, Hermine etc. Yes, the "e" is a feminizing suffix, although not officially defined, it is not unique to Armenian. Many languages, including European as well as Oriental (Semitic) use the "e/ "a" ending to feminize. There may be numerous examples but suffice to consider names like Robert and Roberta, Francisco and Francesca, Eugene and Eugenia (Evkineh) just as in the Arabic "amir" means prince and "amira"- princess. Ibn means "son" and "ibna"... well, I'll let others to comment on that.
=======
MosJan Posted: Jan 18 2002, 04:12 PM


In Anger Management



SHnorhakal em


http://www.virtualar.../arpa/arpa1.htm

I am from the sun. No, I am THE sun, I am the "gun-", I am still looking for that "-esh" that was fed on arpa-saman, barley hay.
Note: Above I did refer to the Arpa Chay, barley river. It make as much sense as "Turkish music", neither of them exist.

#17 Iran01

Iran01

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 169 posts

Posted 05 March 2004 - 04:23 PM

The Arabic "Kafir" has its root in Aramic . In Turkish it has changed into "gavar, gavor".

"gabr" in old Persian refered to a Zarathustrian. But since its negative usage as infidle, its usage has been "banned" in Iran.

#18 Arpa

Arpa

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,011 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Culture

Posted 13 April 2006 - 02:20 PM

Dear Ali,
Welcome back.
I don’t know why you left us. Perhaps you saw some posts that I did not. I know that at times we were very harsh on you, even I may have been harsh, but I was sorry to see go, since even if we differed on many subjects I learned a lot talking to you, which brins us;.
QUOTE
name='aurguplu' date='Aug 21 2002, 11:42 AM' post='14857']
arpa,
the word "gavur", though sounding like "kafir" actually comes from old persian "gabr" which meant a zoroastrian priest (or something zoroastrian). i am not for calling people "infidel" or anything, especially seriously in a derogatory sense, and i don't condone such usage.
re "boklu da çamurluya gülüyor": it's wonderful! i had never neard that one. it must be one of those eastern anatolian dialects that use it. we in istanbul are more refined and say "tencere dibin kara seninki benden kara". you would agree, wouldn't you, that you cannot pronounce yours in polite society.

I don’t know about the “Zoroastrian priest” part. Do you know the etymology and the use in that context. I just looked up my Persian dictionary, and as I had known for quite sometime that “gabr” is used to mean “grave/tomb” in Persian and, as you know in Turkish as well. With a slight caveat though. I have known that my Turkish speaking Armenian ancestors had two separate words for “grave/cemetery”, depending whose cemetery they meant. They called the (Christian) Armenian cemetery “gerezman” and non-Christian one “gabr/gabirlik”. I assume Turks and other non-Christian people returned the favor, only in reverse. I also know that the Persian/ Turkish word for cemetery is “mezar/mazar/mezarlik”, of course from Arabic. I don’t know the etymology but I do remember that a few years back there was big incident at Mazar-e-Sharif in Afghanistan, which to my undertanding means the “tomb of the exalted”. I also know that in Turkish “gabirga” means skeleton. Or is it ghost? No, ghost is “khortlak/hortlak”.
In fact, I was born in an Armenian enclave in the suburbs of Aleppo which even though it had an official name was pejoratively labeled as “khortlak dagi” because it was beyond the (mostly Christian) cemeteries. I never knew what it exactly meant until now when I looked it up.
That is another sad story that I may come back to, i.e the pejorative and insultul so called Armenian surnames.
Hey Ali!
How about you learn to read Armenian. Not necessarily understand, that will come in time. After all, it is the mother of all IndoEuropean langguaes that the Kemlaists have been trying so hard to emulate.
It is not fair that I can read Turkish, not only that, I can even read Osmanli that 99% of Turks can’t, and you don’t read Armenian. I may be able to help you but I’m sure our house geeks, the likes of Harut and Azat may be more helpful.
I just looked up “գերեզման/gerezman/grave/cemetery”, our ancestors from Kilikia pronounce it as “girizman” in their regional dialects. It seems to be common with the Persian, more specifically the Mazdean that is supposed to mean “երկնային տուն/heavenly home”. Does ”mezar/mazar” mean anything like that?

Edited by Arpa, 13 April 2006 - 04:28 PM.


#19 aurguplu

aurguplu

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 623 posts
  • Location:istanbul, turkey
  • Interests:languages, history, archaeology, art, art history , natural history 6 nature

Posted 14 April 2006 - 11:05 AM

QUOTE(Arpa @ Apr 13 2006, 09:20 PM)  
Dear Ali,
Welcome back.
I don’t know why you left us. Perhaps you saw some posts that I did not. I know that at times we were very harsh on you, even I may have been harsh, but I was sorry to see go, since even if we differed on many subjects I learned a lot talking to you, which brins us;.

I don’t know about the “Zoroastrian priest” part. Do you know the etymology and the use in that context. I just looked up my Persian dictionary, and as I had known for quite sometime that “gabr” is used to mean “grave/tomb” in Persian and, as you know in Turkish as well. With a slight caveat though. I have known that my Turkish speaking Armenian ancestors had two separate words for “grave/cemetery”, depending whose cemetery they meant. They called the (Christian) Armenian cemetery “gerezman” and non-Christian one “gabr/gabirlik”. I assume Turks and other non-Christian people returned the favor, only in reverse. I also know that the Persian/ Turkish word for cemetery is “mezar/mazar/mezarlik”, of course from Arabic. I don’t know the etymology but I do remember that a few years back there was big incident at Mazar-e-Sharif in Afghanistan, which to my undertanding means the “tomb of the exalted”. I also know that in Turkish “gabirga” means skeleton. Or is it ghost? No, ghost is “khortlak/hortlak”.
In fact, I was born in an Armenian enclave in the suburbs of Aleppo which even though it had an official name was pejoratively labeled as “khortlak dagi” because it was beyond the (mostly Christian) cemeteries. I never knew what it exactly meant until now when I looked it up.
That is another sad story that I may come back to, i.e the pejorative and insultul so called Armenian surnames.
Hey Ali!
How about you learn to read Armenian. Not necessarily understand, that will come in time. After all, it is the mother of all IndoEuropean langguaes that the Kemlaists have been trying so hard to emulate.
It is not fair that I can read Turkish, not only that, I can even read Osmanli that 99% of Turks can’t, and you don’t read Armenian. I may be able to help you but I’m sure our house geeks, the likes of Harut and Azat may be more helpful.
I just looked up “գերեզման/gerezman/grave/cemetery”, our ancestors from Kilikia pronounce it as “girizman” in their regional dialects. It seems to be common with the Persian, more specifically the Mazdean that is supposed to mean “երկնային տուն/heavenly home”. Does ”mezar/mazar” mean anything like that?


#20 aurguplu

aurguplu

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 623 posts
  • Location:istanbul, turkey
  • Interests:languages, history, archaeology, art, art history , natural history 6 nature

Posted 14 April 2006 - 12:05 PM

dear arpa

1. i wrote the reasons of my leaving recently and currently am getting replies to it. i shall answer the replies when they are all there.

2. armenian is actually on my list of languages to be learned, but the list is a long one. i do not know when time will come to that, but at home i do have a teach yourself armenian kind of book (can't remember the author, has the picture of a carpet on the front page).

3. with all due respect, armenian is in all probability not the mother of all indo-european languages: in fact, that mother must have died long before 2000 BC and even the indo-european homeland has not been located with anything remotely approaching certainty despite more than a century of efforts (and yes, i do know about the gamkrelidze-ivanov theory. i can discuss about it if you want.). as far as i can tell from specialist literature, armenian is considered to be an independent branch of indo-european (hereafter IE), probably an originally Balkan language with ties to Thracian, Dacian and that lot (of which little else than names and the odd word survive) and it appears to have entered anatolia from the west, with the invasion of the "sea peoples" of the 12th century BC that put an end to the hittite empire. Herodotus wrote that armenians were phrygian colonists, but as classical scholars as a rule do not take Herodotus for a very reliable source, this remains just a possibility. the amount of phrygian that has survived is too small, too fragmentary and above all too formulaic to derive much information from. it also mostly reflects an ancient form of phrygian that in all probability was not what people actually spoke in the 1st millennium BC. what little we do know of phrygian make us come to the following conclusions: 1) it was not a member of the anatolian group of IE languages (Hittite, Luvian, Palaic, Lycian, Lydian, Sidetic, Karian) and 2) it appears to show some affinities to Greek within IE that would nicely agree with the theory that it was originally a Balkan language (Greek appears to have entered the southern Balkans some time after 2000 BC from what is now Romania and environs). now Armenian also shares some isoglosses with Greek (like mi/mia for "one" alues/alopis for "fox" eber/epheron for "carry" (sorry i don't have diacritics on this keyboard) and one might very tentatively conclude that the two were originally members of the same subgroup of IE after the parent language had dissolved. but tentative is the key word here: every generation of IE scholars come up with completely different theories using precisely the same pieces of evidence. i am not an IE specialist, i know a thing or two about altaic linguistics (which is even worse in this respect) and i would be very, very careful before coming up with a theory for the preliterate periods of any language.

moreover armenian is a very severely distorted form of indo-european, chiefly under the influence of caucasian languages (urartian and its older cousin hurrian were in all probability northeast caucasian languages, relatives of today's chechen and ingush, amongst others. the genetic unity of the three caucasian languages is disputed). did you know that "yerkoo" is precisely the same word as "two"? both derived from something like *du- and look at what happened to yours, whereas the English one is still reasonably recognisable!

as for armenian, since the earliest text is the bible translation of the 5th century, there is a huge gap between when armenian was probably first spoken in anatolia (either 12th century bc or 7th century bc, god only knows) and when it was first committed to writing. by then, of course, it had changed pretty much beyond recognition.

4. i didn't know you could read ottoman. congratulations! few turks can do that today. do you just know the script, or can you actually handle a severe text, and can you read handwriting?

5. cemeteries: "gabirlik" appears to come from "kabirlik" QBR is the Arabic root for "tomb" and you still have words like "kabir" "makber" "makbere" and also "kabirlik" in Turkish. It has got nothing to do with the Iranian "gäbr", which is, probably together with the Arabic "kafir" (blasphemer) the ancestor of the Turkish "gavur". In Turkish you would I guess not use "kabirlik" for a non-Muslim cemetery, whereas "mezarlik" is a perfectly neutral word meaning "cemetery" and can be used for all religions. it comes from the Arabic root ZWR (pronounced "zara" meaning "to visit", and means "the place to visit". It belongs to the same family of words as "ziyaret" for instance. Mezar-i Sherif does indeed mean "Tomb of the Exalted".

As for your Persian dictionary giving "gabr" for tomb, i guess what it actually does is to give the Persian pronunciation of the Arabic "qabr", the one above. The Persians tend to g the q of Arabic, since the sound of the Arabic q does not really exist in Persian, and if you don't know Persian it may be a bit hard to recognise Arabic words containing q in Persian pronunciation. Also a note on the above: many central and east Anatolian Turkish dialects g their q's too, like gapmah, galmah, gacmah instead of kapmak, kalmak, kacmak in istanbul.

The Turkish word "kaburga" (not kabirga, maybe this is a local pronunciation) actually means "rib cage". "Hortlak" is someone who has risen from the dead (from "hortlamak") in this world and "ghost" in this sense. it has a frightening sonund to it, and you would not refer to Lazarus as a "hortlak", it would not be nice.

gotta get beack to work now. take care

ali




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users