Should I stay or should I go?

Allow me for the reason of effectiveness of this discussion to represent the Armenians currently living in Armenia in this initial posting.
So, almost 80% of us in Armenia think now: "Helnum em etam steghic, el voch hamberutyun a mnacel voch havat". The others just don't have the money for tickets.
Suppose, I'm one of those who will ask the last leaving group of Armenians to switch off the light in the Zvartnoc airport before they board the last flight. Then I'll go to the border to meet the Turkish army with a gun, or pistol, or knife, or fork or anything handy I have.
I'm addressing the liberal-free-open-minded-***ually-advansed-23-rd century looking forward representatives of this site.
Do you think that ***ual liberation of our girls, ateizm or diversification of religion, westernization of our language etc. are topics that just can't wait a little???
The turks are waiting to finally solve our problem, and we are talking about "Virgin or non-virgin". Astvats mez mi qich khelq ta.
Oh yess, this is an issue which gonna bother you. If we who live here leave Armenia, will you be able to:
1. Look at Ararat form Yerevan the capital of Armenian Republc
2. Visit Garni, Geghard etc.
3. Enjoy the barbeque near a mounain river in Byurakan, Jermuk etc.
4. Look at Sevan in a late summer morning
I could continue...
I'm not telling you that we are just guarding this for you to come and see.
But the westernization and ***ual liberation of our girls is realy not helping at present.
Save it, or I'm gonna by that god damn ticket and come to enjoy my time with you guys.

Berj, why don't you come to the United States? Do you really think you will be the last person left in Armenia? I know you were illustrating a point, but how little faith you have in your people that you think that debate and ideas will destroy them. We have survived Mongols, Turks and more so, Kurds who have tried to destroy us.

By the way, will it really be a Turk you will fight with "a fork" with? I don't think so, it will be a Kurd! They are waiting in the wings to pounce on Armenia, while Armenia is busy hating the Turks.

Berj jan! Hell with America and other countries, I love my country and I will never leave it, even though my father's business in Kazakhstan.
We are stong enogh to survive!
My homeland is my homeland, nothing is compare to it. I love Armenia as nothing in my life. Gyumri or Yerevan are better than any city in Europe I've been.
That's my point of view.

Sireli Artur

I know you love Armenia, and good for you, I do to, but don't say "To hell with America", I love America as well. America has given freedom and opportunity to thousands of Armenians over the last two centuries. So watch it! Don't mess with the U.S.A!

::: )))))))))
Dont' mess with the USA??: )))): )))
Hell with America!
Your love is your love, i have my own views, if it concerns you that is your problem!

Yerani iyn MARTUN Achkerin ov amen aravot tesum e Masis & Ararat@ Bibliakan
Yerani n@ran ov Aranst Karoti mi bajak GArnii jur@ karor e xmel.
Yerani iyn martun ov Aravotyan Sevani apin Arevatsagn e tesnum yev te uzi yerekoyan el Alagyazi lanjerits norits Masisin k@nayi .
Yerani orn iyn ga yev tesnen mezanits shater@ yer xoskern iys Karoti chen hnchi kam k@moratsven .
>>Krunk mer ashxarqen xabrik m@ chunis?<
i tsavok srty arten 13 tary e HAyastanum chem ,
mek korm dnelov iyn te ov inch kmatstsy i'm Hayastanum chlinelu masin asem hetevyal@.
HAyrenikits heru bnakvelov , Yev kam artasahmanum ( hayastanits durs ) ashxatelov yev @entanikin satar kangnelov ( ognelov )
voch meki vra Davajani yev kam HAyrenik@ lqori pitak inchvor mek@ karror e dnel,
turkyan yev adrbejan@ verchin 10 tarineri @enthatskum hajoretsin irenst narxagtserum ,` pakelov Hayastani yev Karabaghi janaparner@.
Yerkirn HAyastan djvarin katsutyan mej e te inch patjarnerov da artenurish Topick e arten . chi gtnvi mi Hye Tramard vron ir @entanik@ chnayi , menk Hyers dimum enk amen qiyli vorpisi mer zavakner@ mer @entanik@ apahov lini , sa miyayn finansakan apahovutyan masin che .
iynpes vro Hye@ Hye e mnum lini Hayastanum lini USA kam tekuz japonia.gone du HAyastani odn u jurn es xmel, Hayastani KYANKI shkolan es antsel , martkutyun@ gites inch bana HAyastan kam HAyrenik Xosk@ jisht es haskanum.
iysor LA kan aveli kan 1 milyon HAyer ashxarki tarber tsayrerits yekats , shater!@ harmarvel en shater@ voch , vorosh@ yet HAyastan en gnum voroshn el chgiten inch anen . Shatern aranst HAyastani yev HAyreniki chen dimoanum shateri hech tandzin el chi voch hetaqrqrvum en voch el tsavuim iyl aveli vat portsum en yeratsn el moranal qani hima USA en aprum hima irenk USA qaraqatsy en ( big dell. ) irents yerexekin HAyeren xosel chen sovoretsnum ur mnats Hayastani masin mtasten .

te xosk@ galsi e` mnalu te gnalun ,
iyster jisht yev sxal chka .
HAjeli yev NAx@ntreli kliner aprel HAyastanum MER yerkrum kan qarsh gal es otar otar amayi jampeki vra . inchu otar yev amayi kani vor chka yev vochinch vorn imne im azgin@ im kulturayin@.
Mass kazmel kam aprel (USA ) mi yerkri vor@ ashxarhaKAli derum e iysor yev inchu che inkn el ir neng qaraqakanutyun e varum Hayastani yev Karabaghi hartsum iysor HAyastanin patin e dem tvel vro HAyastan@ Meghrin ta turkin.

.
yes inks indz vra em vertsnum orinak, yete Hayastanum lineyi hima inch karror eyi anel?
chem kartsum zgali mi ban, gone iysterist inchvor mi kerp karroranum enk ognel,
te harazatnerin yev kam azgayin x@mbavorumnerin .

Berj,

Who are you blaming for all these so called evils? The Armenians living on this side of the ocean? Don't you think you are pointing your finger at the wrong people? And if you want to buy that God-Damned ticket - don't find any imaginary reasons for it. Each person is responsible for his/her own actions.

Sulamik

I don’t know why we . the Armenians of the Diaspora , have to apologize for anything to the Armenians of Armenia. Are they better Armenians than we are ? NO . We managed to survive in foreign countries , and we managed to keep ourselves ARMENIANS.
After all , we ended up in the Diaspora , not because we chose to , but in case you’ve forgotten , the damn Turks kicked us out of our homelands. Shame on those who question our right to be called Armenians. You tell me , is it easier to stay Armenian in Armenia or in the States of anywhere else?
We proved our devotion and love for OUR Armenia , whenever we had the opportunity to do so. Let me not go into details of the huge assistance and help that Armenia receives directly or indirectly from all of us leaving in the Diaspora.
We call you brothers , and you dare question even that .
Definitely the majority if the population in Armenia are going through hardship. But the question is , are we to be blamed for that?
Look at the Jews, they help Israel from wherever they are. Nobody questions their right to be called Jews. They have even went so far as to have the right to vote in Israeli elections from outside. ????

No you are not a better Armenian than me, than Steve ,than Sulamita or Cleopatra. And to tell you the truth we do not need your acknowledgement on that . Our faith is enough for us.

I am not trying to create a feud between us , but the fact that we are all chatting in the same site , means something. Doesn’t it?

Raffi,
I wasn't even thinking of blaming anybody for being out of Armenia. There is nothing of that kind in my posting. My younger brother is out of Armenia. I know how much Diaspora helps Armenia. You will not even find any secret refferals to this in my posting.

Berj

Sulamik,
If I was to blame somebody I would have written it very straightly. I was only trying to say that the westernization that you're preaching has a negative influence on our birth rate, religious and national unity (I sure we are going to face a new war).

Berj

Thank you! But if I go somewhere, I will chose Iran, because may be I will have a girl to bring up.

Though I hate the kurds as much as the turks, kurds never had the state to organise the Genocide. All the orders and directions were given form Young Turks. This is documented. Kurds were always the hands of the evil, turks were the heart of the evil. I don't want to talk about the brains, you'll be too much amaized (I don't meen Iran).
Berj

Wow Berj! NOw I really have insight into what a medieval person you really are! Is it because of the hejab that you would want to have your daughter wear that you want to go to Iran? Why not Afghanistan instead!

Good point Raffi! I am sick and tired of these guys bashing "akhpars". How easy it is to be Armenian in Armenia! We are more Armenian in some ways because we choose to be so in an odar society. I am surrounded by Mexicans, Asians, who are terrific people. I love them dearly. But it is a challenge for me to maintain my culture, but some how I do it.

Farsi,

Being an Armenian outside Armenia has its difficulties. But some use this as "something special" in their lives. Because we are one of those spicy nations which are adding flavour to the garnish nations. When we becime a garnish nation (over 50 mln) anybody will do anything he wants. Because lots of others will save the etnic tradition. But for the time being an Armenian must have his blood-stamp(figurative) on our etnic Charter. I don't meen kes or not kes hay. I meen there is a set of rules you must abide. That's all.
About medievalizm: I play Oscar Peterson and Keith Jarret on piano, I speak 4 foreign languages (one of them Far Eastern), I'm using the web to talk to you. If its about ***, then Kaligula and the Romans where the most so called open-minded people.

Berj,

The Westernization I am preaching?!?!?! Hmmmm ... Hetaqrqir er Pardon me, but your comment does not even make sence. And how did you come up with this "birth rate, religious and national unity" crap? Am I responsible for that too? Am I responsible for the ***ual, religious and all the other petty-revolutions that are overtaking Armenia? Or did you again mean the "Western Armenians?" To be honest I think we are all tired of being a scape-goat for all the ills of Armenia. Now I am starting to understand why many Armenians born and raised outside of Armenia are not too fond of us "Hayastantsis." Its because people like you give them a reason to. I hope one day you will see my point.

Sulami

Yes Sulami, you are personally responsible for giving birth to a beautiful Armenian child (preferably 7 of them), whom you would better bring up like Hay Araqelakan Lusavorchakan Ekeghecu nviryalner.
I don't know where from you digged out that I'm somehow blaming Western Armenians. I'll give you some names of Western Armenians that I adore:
MONTE MELKONYAN, VARUZHAN KARAPETYAN, RAFFI HOVHANESSIAN. The first vanished in Karabagh, the second is in prison for almost a half of his life for a crime he didn't commit, the third raised the issue of Genocide in Stambul and it costed him the post of RA MFA (under US pressure). There are lot of them and some don't even speak a single word of Armenian. 80% of ASALA were Western Armenians. But the people I'm blaming here are just too far of being like them.

Don't even try to make a mess in my mind, It's clear a sharpenned dagger!

Well, here we go again! Henz lusavorchakaneru esk Hayen? Yev protestantneru yev Katolikneru? Well I guess in your vision of a unified police state Armenia, we can't even have Christian diversity huh? I guess my Great grandfather who was an Armenian Baptist minister and almost killed by the Turks wouldn't count as Armenian! You gave me an idea for another provocative topic sure to shatter the fragile unity of Armenia!(GIve me a break Armenians are a smart people capable of debate, contrary to what you believe!)

Berj,

I am very well aware of my PERSONAL responsibilities.
Im yerexaner@ arajin hertin klinen MARD, apa HAY, yev nor Qristonia (Araqelakan Lusavorchakan Ekeghecu Nviryalner).

Isk inch verabervum e Hayastani situatsia-yin, yes voch mi dzevov patasxanatu chem "lav"-i kam "vat"-i hamar.

In regards to Western Armenian - you actually did point fingers. That is I was talking about.

And by the way - Monte did not vanish, he was betrayed by his own men.

Sulamita

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sulamita:
[B] Berj,

In regards to Western Armenian - you actually did point fingers. That is I was talking about.

And by the way - Monte did not vanish, he was betrayed by his own men.


Sulamita,

Don't fool around. Show me a word in my postings blaming Western Armenians. There are pure blooded, pure speaking, Lusavorchakan Armenians here in Yerevan which I'm blaming for not being enough Armenian. I'm talking about devotion here!
When the hell you will get it. Vat es akhchi, asa ganq buzhenq?

Berj

Berj,

I was referring to these words posted by YOU. And please refrain from calling me "aghchi." Thank you.

Sulamita

Here are my thoughts on this subject:

Why do most armenians leave armenia currently? Because of the horrid conditions, economic, political, etc. Because they would like to provide their children with a brighter future, with the opportunity to get an education that they can then apply towards a tangible career, because they'd like to give their children options they know are not available in armenia, etc. etc. At least that's why my parents (both very well educated and holding rather good jobs) left in the summer of '91 (they knew things were falling apart). Yes, they fled. Perhaps some would consider that cowardly, but few would argue its practicality.

Of course fleeing comes at a price. The price of watching your children desperately trying to fit in somehow into the new culture, of trying to balance out being armenian and being an american. I doubt that those who remain in armenia could understand the sheer torture of being pulled in two different directions at the same time, of belonging to both and belonging to neither. That's the sad truth. Those of you still in Armenia, at least you have the comfort of having the strength of your culture behind you. I, for one, don't have that.

As odd as it may sound (after the ***ual liberation move..lol), I've noticed a change in me recently towards becoming more "armenian"...but that has come at a price, too. At the very hefty price of receiving constant criticism of my more so called "armenian" peers.

Just what IS armenian, pray tell? Is it living in armenia, is it listening to the music, is it having armenian friends, is it knowing the history, is it honoring your elders......the list goes on and on....

In my opinion, there's only one qualifier... an armenian soul...we in the diaspora have it just as you in armenia may have it

i don't pretend to know what the "right" choice is...to live in the diaspora in relative comfort or to live in armenia and "remain" armenian....

one more thought...progress...do you think that so many armenians would have left the republic had it been more "progressive"...and yes, i'm employing the western definition of progress..but progress, in my view, is a good thing..had we, as a people, been more progressive, allowed for more changes, allowed for freer thought that would have brought along those changes, maybe, just maybe, ladies and gentlemen, armenia would not be in the state that it's in now...

at any rate, just a thought...

g.s.