13 replies to this topic

[Gayane]

In American legal doctrine, there are two types of sexual harassment:

1. "quid pro quo"--actual loss because of the harassment (i.e. forcing an employee to perform certain acts with the threat of losing their job or offering a promotion for those acts)

2. "hostile environment"--unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical conduct of sexual nature...can be psychologically injurious

There are other criteria, but those are the basics.

I'm interested in your opinions on how this plays out in actual practice. I'm particularly interested in women as harassers, not as victims of harassment. How does our society perceive women who are sexual harassers? How about the victims? Are women perpetrators punished? How severely? How just or fair is their punishment with respect to male harassers?

Some examples of sexual harassment:
being touched by a boss in an inappropriate manner, being made uncomfortable by a boss or coworker telling numerous jokes of sexual nature, receiving unwanted sexual emails from a coworker or a boss, feeling compelled to give in to sexual innuendo to keep your job or get a promotion, having to quit because of the harassment, being told to wear more sexy, revealing clothing to work, etc..

I wanted to focus on men as victims here because I think it's important to note that women commit sexual harassment as well. Why is this a women's issue? Because it affects societal perceptions of women (in what way has no bearing on the issue).

Finally, I'm interested in your opinions on whether or not (or even if) sexual harassment is common (or takes place) in the Armenian community. (consider both men and women as both harassers and victims).

[dragon]

I think you miss the 3rd one.-
sexual harrassment by writing.

This I find more interesting.

Dragon

[Gayane]

If that is, indeed, the case, I stand corrected

I'm familiar with legal precedents for only the two I've mentioned, but I'd love to explore the third. I think you'd need to give us more info on that one.

[dragon]

You need a large imagination to be able to explere the third. Are you that kind of person?

Dragon

[Gayane]

Being as even-tempered as I am, I'll pretend I didn't hear or see that

Please stick to the topic.

[Nané]

Yes, it does take place. I can't say its common (it could be - but i am not sure) but it exists - in the workplace mostly. Most of the time the women are the victims (as they are the victims in general).

I don't have much to say about men being victims of sexual harassment because I don't believe its too common. I am going to be a little sexually biased and say that most men welcome any kind of sexual comments or advances that come from a woman - so at that point sexual harassment it no longer is. But I am sure there are cases where the comments and advances are unwelcomed and the man becomes a victim of sexual harassment.

[dragon]

Man who refuses sexual offers from woman have some reasons, such as:

He might be married and happy in his marriage. He won't cheat his wife.

The offer might be not polite enough, or more than UNUSUAL, that man feel afraid of that.

Man is sexually unable. He doesn't know how to manage the offer.

Man is not ready for such an offer. He likes woman who is like his mother. There is no image for an open-minded woman in his mind (especially if woman is armenian and has strong personality). He is not mature enough, to be able to welcome the idea.

Armenian man are open-minded only with odars (even if the woman is older than him...for 10-15 years), but they are narrow-minded, when the thing comes to armenian woman.

I tried to help.

Dragon

[Artur]

What? ok, probability that this is true is 0.000001%

Dragon you forgot the main reason: The woman that offers can be really, i mean really "not beautiful". )

Arturian

[Boghos]

This is an interesting issue. The first problem is defining what exactly constitutes sexual harassment. My view, in very few words is that harassment, sexual or otherwise, happens only when the receiver is powerless. Or in other words is not able to defend him/herself. Otherwise everything can be interpreted as harassment.

There are naturally important cultural differences in the behaviour of men in relation to women, and vice versa. And that is difficult to deal with sometimes.

This whole threat atmosphere surrounding sexual harrasment intends to create a sanitized environment. I think that this is another reflection of two sometimes perverse aspects of American society: its litigious nature fueled by profit; and its double standards when it comes to sexuality.

On another note I find that men hardly ever perceive aggressive behaviour by women as harrassment. Indeed it may happen, but most are just flattered. It is true that with the ascension of women in corporate life this has probably increased. But my view is that it has nothing to with sex, but it is a sad expression of power.

[Gayane]

Dragon, I think you misunderstood. Sexual harassment is not about an "offer" that someone can "accept" or "reject" as such. The person in the position of the harasser is either a) threatening the victim with the loss of their job or b) creating a severely unpleasant environment for the victim. I think you're imagining a woman licking her lips and playing with her hair to entice a man she works with into going back to her place for a drink and possibly sex. Sexual harassment isn't about that!

Rather, I would agree with Boghos, it is about a display of power (stemming from the position of the harasser) over the victim, finding expression through the demand for sexual favors.

Boghos raised the issue of the litigious nature of our society. Yet is the heightened sensitivity currently surrounding sexual harassment in the workplace the result of our litious nature, or is it the result of many years of work on the part of womens' rights activists to increase awareness about the problem? I would say it is the latter. As an example, pretty stewardesses are probably very much still in demand. The only difference is, pretty stewardesses(or hot male attendants!)have now acquired the legal means of fighting the harassment they might encounter at work on a daily basis.

I find myself, regretfully, drawing a correlation between sexual harassment and the good looks of the victim (above), as did a couple of others. In all truth, however, sexual harassment is NOT about the good looks of the victim. Anyone (regardless of their level of perceived attractiveness) can be a victim of sexual harassment, harking back to Boghos's point about the harassment being an exercise of power and control.

This point about the looks of the victim ties in to one of my original questions, namely, societal perceptions of women as victims and women as harassers. I think a common stereotype is that of female victims of sexual harassment are pretty little sex kittens. What would you say is the common stereotype of the woman agressor?

[MJ]

Gayane,

Let me disagree with the above. In American society it has become more about litigation rather than victimization. In some peculiar way, the framework of harassment has become an instrument of exercise of power by the feminists. Men are scared to death from their female colleagues. They would be afraid even to say, "You look good, today."

This doesn't imply that there are no expressions of real harassment. However, the overly zealous attitude of the feminists has had, in my view, adverse effect on the health of the relations of the genders.

As to the harassment of males by the females, I am aware only of such expressions in the Soviet Army. The scariest for male solders punishment has been their subordination to female junior officers of the army for disciplinary purposes.

I am not aware of harassment of men by the females in the US.

[Boghos]

I think this is a very difficult question. My sense is that there is no clear cut answer whether it was activism or something else. I am inclined to believe that a great deal of this way Americans deal with sexual harassment is a result of a conservative society.

If we agree that sexual harassment has very little to do with sex, then the way to deal with it is by creating mechanisms that control abuse, and not only of a sexual nature, in the work place. The fact is that corporations are not built in any democratic fashion, its checks and balances are very weak. Unfortunately, I don´t see that changing.

I have worked for banks my whole life, American and European alike. The issue of sexual harassment never came up in an obvious manner. I was made aware of an instance where action was made necessary. But that had nothing to do with the courts.
I am not denying that it happens, it does of course. But dealing with it is not as simple as it appears. Women are scared of hurting their careers, and there is also the issue of definning harrasment.

I prefer to see women empowered in a different manner. Perhaps as I grew up surrounded by strong minded and willed women I don´t see much reason for the kind of situation that exists in America today.

Not wanting to extend muyself too much, just look at Scandinavia. Stereotypes aside, nobody, in developed countries, deals with sex in the same conservative, double standards, way that Americans do. Nor is sexual harassment an issue. It depends on how open society and the people are.

[ April 16, 2001: Message edited by: Boghos ]

[nairakev]

A very good point made here.
American definition of sexual harassement may sound justified and logic, but when it comes to deployment of all these defenitions in real situations, various conflicts seem to be multiplied. American deployment of sexual harassement raises many debates around the world. I know that many european women, from my conversations with them, (especially French, Spanish, Russian, and German) make fun of it. In Russia, sexual harassement is something to be widely discussed in medias and among feminin population. And often opinions confront each other violently. Many women will accept compliments and flowers from their boss, even if this gesture has a sexually oriented purpose. Naturally, many women will be flattered. The harassement begins from the moment when the boss touches her female employee and makes sexually-oriented compliments and invitations against the will of her employee. If woman clearly expressed her objection, than the person which goes against her will, probably, by the majority of russian women will be considered as a harasser. I agree with Gayane, who raised as well the question of feminin harassement as well. Many women of power, where accused as well in sexual harassement towards their male employees. Many of you remember the Holywood blockbuster with Demy Moore and Michael Douglas on female sexual harassement.
And stories alike that one are often a reality for many men as well.

[ May 28, 2001: Message edited by: naira ]

[Mr. Goodlooking]

It’s so funny I agree with most of the people here. It doesn’t happen often, and if a girl requests for sexual favors or unwelcome sexual advances, a man is going to feel very lucky and his going to brag to his friends unless the girl is very ugly or unattractive. Guys and most girls make jokes about it all the time until it happens to them. I was just like that I use to laugh at the subject "Men get sexually harassed" Until one day some girl which, she is attractive but I had no intentions of doing any thing with her cause one I had a girl friend and second she was just a friend, She decides to slip a date rape pill, the (ill you slip in to a persons drink to knock them out so you can rape them, those of you who don’t know what it is) Any how we were alone and she did slip one in my drink, and I drank it next thing I know imp getting dizzy and about to black out. So what I did is I just sticked my finger in my thought and threw up. Well the story ended by me throwing up all night I mean 5 hours non stop throwing up and she really got scared thought I was going to die. But I never pressed charges on her cause she learned her lesson and she really got scared. So guys don’t make the subject a joke it can happen TO YOU.

V.