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A reason to be proud of and a reason to be ashamed....


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#41 Guest__*

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Posted 18 October 2000 - 02:37 PM

Rich,

Why do you have to talk about hating, killing, and dying? Why not loving, living, building, creating, inventing? I can assure you that Armenia needs more of builder types of people, then those who are ready to die, to kill, to sacrifice, and so on. It sounds so much pleasant to hear that you love your sister. I wish I had one, too...

As a general remark, I think it is not necessary to love Armenia, so that to hate Turkey. It is much easier to hate, but it is very hard to love. But, hey, you say you love Armenia, and I take your word for it.

“I received info that a '1/2 breed was talkin trash'. I was ill-informed and should've investigated further, but the source has always been a trustworthy one.”

Don’t you think that you may also have some investigation to do, before you start liberating Western Armenia? And when you are ready to pull out of here, let us know, because we can give you some tips BTW, who else is going with you?

If I were you, though, I would’ve concentrated on being the best student possible in my local University, so that then to go to a ‘global’ one. Why does Armenia need half-educated kamikadzes, after all?

#42 Guest__*

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Posted 18 October 2000 - 02:40 PM

Not much impressed...by the stupid picture...



[This message has been edited by MJ (edited October 18, 2000).]

#43 Guest__*

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Posted 18 October 2000 - 05:15 PM

MJ,

If your point to Richard is that 40-50 years of a Dr. Monte Melkonian teaching at Yerevan University would have done more for our people than 5, 10, even 20 years of Avo battle victories, then I totally agree with you.

A few years ago, I spoke with someone who had grown up with Monte's parents and had known him since he was a child. He thought it was a tremendous waste of a bright Armenian mind. However, if Avo had not been killed, maybe alot of us would have a different view. Hindsight is always 20/20.

#44 Guest__*

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Posted 18 October 2000 - 05:53 PM

Mike,

Let me give you the bad news first – I don’t even know who Avo was. Obviously, this doesn’t undermine him at all. I suspect he was a hero. Can you give me his brief story, please? (:

Now, the good news – there were/are at least a dozen of commanders like Monte in Karabagh and Armenia. Have you heard of Leonid Azgaldyan, for example, the commander of the Army of Independence? He was killed in mysterious circumstances. But sure, Monte has been overwhelmingly loved and respected one, and an inspiration for many. And he has contributed in a very significant way.

To be honest, I am not quite sure if I understand what we are arguing about. I suspect there is some kind of misunderstanding or disconnect between the two of us in the last few messages, due to the limited communication of our points on both sides.

As far as Rich is concerned, if he is going to choose the path of a military man, I think it would be better if he first goes to Military Academia in the US, becomes a professional man of uniform, rather than what we used to call in Armenia “cannon meat.” I value professionalism in any aspect of life, and in this particular case -in the military.

The next Armenian war, if God forebid, it breaks up, will be a very professional war. No more "fedayee."

#45 Guest__*

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Posted 18 October 2000 - 06:08 PM

No more fedayi? Who saved us from complete genocide? Who won at Sardarabad? I could've gone to West Point if I wanted to, it's still a possibility. Right now I'm just a high school student taking college courses. Kinda like AP, only guaranteed credits. I've taken AP as well. Mike, at least, should know what I'm talking about.

#46 Guest__*

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Posted 18 October 2000 - 06:13 PM

quote:
Originally posted by TigrannesIII:
Who saved us from complete genocide?


Not feadyee, Rich. Not fedayee.

quote:

Who won at Sardarabad?


Not fedayee. Not fedayee...

And tell me what fedayee means, please...

[This message has been edited by MJ (edited October 18, 2000).]

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Posted 18 October 2000 - 06:18 PM

MJ,

I'm drawing on what I learned in Avakian's The Cross and the Crescent. Fedayi were the freedom fighters. I know Tehlirian was a Fedayi, I will forever love him for taking out Talaat. Tehlirian is my hero.

#48 Guest__*

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Posted 18 October 2000 - 06:28 PM

quote:
Originally posted by MJ:
Rich,

Why do you have to talk about hating, killing, and dying? Why not loving, living, building, creating, inventing? I can assure you that Armenia needs more of builder types of people, then those who are ready to die, to kill, to sacrifice, and so on.


I firmly believe there is only one thing the Turks understand. Show me a Turk with whom I may reason.

#49 Guest__*

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Posted 18 October 2000 - 07:36 PM

quote:
Originally posted by MJ:
Mike,

To be honest, I am not quite sure if I understand what we are arguing about. I suspect there is some kind of misunderstanding or disconnect between the two of us in the last few messages, due to the limited communication of our points on both sides.


No, no, you and I aren't arguing . Maybe that's why you were unsure what it was about My comment above was just to say I am in line with your thinking on the build/study vs. destroy/kill issue.

"Avo" was Monte's nom de guerre in Karabagh. I just assumed that if even I knew that, the rest of you did, too.

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Posted 19 October 2000 - 12:13 AM

Martin,

Avo was an ASALA commander who later went to Karabagh. He was very young when he decided first to go to Iran and then to Lebanon. He didn´t know our language at all before joinning the "struggle". These were times where every "national liberation movement" in the world where very active as you no doubt know.

Having been exposed to this kind of idols myself I will refrain from making further comments at this time. Every nation wants/needs a Che Guevara.

#51 Guest__*

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Posted 19 October 2000 - 03:22 AM

Rich, I don’t know about the book you mentioned, but I conclude that either it is a bad book misinforming you, or at least you have to read a lot of other books, to learn some more on Armenian history. For example, you have to do some more learning, so that to know that Tehlirian has never been a fedayee.

In my understanding, most of whom you would call “fedayee,” were not freedom fighters, but avengers. There was no such thing as “freedom fighter” in Armenia since probably Ashot Ergat’s rebellion in the 10th century.

You know, since my age of 17, I have always wondered as how could Turks slaughter an entire population –primarily children, women and elderly? I have always asked to myself where were the “fedayee?” I have felt more ashamed for the Genocide, then furious. I have compared it with the Serbs, who have also been under the Turkish dominance, but have not been slaughtered.

Mike, Boghos, thanks for the info. My regards to Avo My comments are not directed at undermining these guys. And I can understand that a whole generation of Armenians has grown up idolizing them. But I think something very fundamental has changed – we have an independent statehood, and regular army.

Don’t get me wrong. I have enormous respect for those Armenians who choose the path of military. But I think it has to be in the proper context in our days.

#52 Guest__*

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Posted 19 October 2000 - 09:00 AM

MJ,

That's strange, because the Avakian family was very close with Soghomon Tehlirian and his family. The book is basically Tehlirian telling Avakian what to write.

Rich

#53 Guest__*

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Posted 19 October 2000 - 09:03 AM

Posted Image

Barev Dzez
Mj jan stop by at this addres if you need some mor info on Avo
http://www.janfedayi...onte/monte.html
Mj you cen get some info on Monte Melkonian's books, brochures and videotapes .

Monte Melkonian was born near Fresno, California, on November 25, 1957. He graduated with honors from the University of California at Berkeley with a degree in archaeology and Asian history. Turning down scholarships for graduate study at prestigious universities, he devoted the rest of his life to defending the underprivileged and voiceless. He taught at Armenian schools in Iran and Lebanon and helped defend local Armenian communities. Monte stated many times that those who genuinely want lasting peace should be prepared to work and fight for justice.
1991 until his martyrdom in battle in the Aghdam region on June 12, 1993, he restructured Karabaghs Martouni defense forces along strong disciplined lines and led them to one victory after another. In the heat of battle, Monte demanded that the soldiers under his command respect the lives of civilians and prisoners of war.----->
it's only next dor @ www.JanFedayi.com

#54 Guest__*

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Posted 19 October 2000 - 09:12 AM

quote:
Originally posted by MJ:
Don’t get me wrong. I have enormous respect for those Armenians who choose the path of military. But I think it has to be in the proper context in our days.

Absolutely. The prevailing attitude by the world/U.N. seems to be that the currently established borders are fixed. Right or wrong, they are not going to allow significant changes in those little colored areas you now see on a map. Thus, I think there is little chance of very significant re-drawing of borders around Armenia.

Also, the problem with any sort of war-based strategy is that it is a temporary gain. If we take that village/city today, what good is it if in 50 years we lose it again? You end up with the modern day middle-east with centuries of killing in the streets. Defend yourselves with guns, but change people's minds, attitudes and governments.

The fighters amongst amongst us need to be available for defense purposes. In this morning's paper, I read that Israeli forces using TV footage went undercover and nabbed 8 suspects in the recent lynchings. That's what Armenia has to be sure it has: well trained experts who operate with specific intelligent agendas and pin-point accuracy.

My utopian dream, which I'll admit will never happen, is that many Armenians immigrate to Eastern Turkey, vote strongly (if allowed!) and assume many positions of power. This is the best, long-term way to get our land back. As the Aztlan(i.e., Mexican)activists say in California...

WE'RE TAKING OUR LAND BACK, ONE PERSON AT A TIME!

And it's working.

#55 Guest__*

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Posted 19 October 2000 - 09:19 AM

yete mek or baxt vijakvi handipelu andzamb, metsins hajuykov Monteyi masin manramasn karor em patmel dzez, yev bazum MUTH kormer @lusavorel iys andznavorutyan.
sakayn anglerenov manavand internety vra cheyi tsankana xosel.
menak mi xosk kasem ,
yete Vazgen Sarksyan@ yev echmiyatsni Manvel@ Monteyin "chkangnetsneyin", yete voch Bakun iyl gone Adrbejani mets mas@ Artsaxi dzerki tak kliner.
Montener mer azgin Shat en petq ,

#56 Guest__*

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Posted 19 October 2000 - 09:21 AM

Not to stir things up any further, but Martin, I have to agree with your point about being furious at the occurence of the genocide. I, too, have often wondered why we didn't fight as properly as we probably should have. I read Raffi's "xente" as a child, but I remember thinking, even then, that armenians were pretty much wrong in not accepting the Xent's ideas about military mobilization of the armenians (do I even remember this correctly?, forgive me if I don't). But even if I don't remember this correctly, I'm sure there must have been leaders who called these people to arms, on a very large scale. What's the explanation, why didn't this kind of large scale mobilization take place?

(I'm almost ashamed of my ignorance on the subject)

#57 Guest__*

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Posted 19 October 2000 - 09:21 AM

Professional millitary commanders of the Armenian armed forces during Karabagh:

General Ter-Tadevosyan (Commandos)
General Ghoukassov
General Andreasyan
General Dalibaltayan
General Zinevich

at Sardarabat:

General Silikyan
General Araratyan

There were a lot more, I don't remember the exact names.

#58 Guest__*

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Posted 19 October 2000 - 09:59 AM

Barev MosJan,

I know Monte, and have met him once for few minutes He was a very bright person, and strategist. I just didn't know he was also called Avo. I haven't read his books, or books on him. But I know of him.

I agree with what he has said about peace and justice. But I think, there is a regular Army in Armenia for that purpose. I am sure Monte would've been of the same opinion, and he has fought under the command of the Army headqurters, led by the "Comandos," I understand. He has not done things of the tope of his head. He has been a professional commander, indeed fighting for freedom, and not an avenger.

My point is not about to be ready or not, but about how to be ready. I don't see him being a "fedayee," but an officer of the Armenian Army.

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Posted 19 October 2000 - 10:09 AM

"My utopian dream, which I'll admit will never happen, is that many Armenians immigrate to Eastern Turkey, vote strongly (if allowed!) and assume many positions of power. This is the best, long-term way to get our land back. As the Aztlan(i.e., Mexican)activists say in California..."

Dear Mike, I don't think this is that much of an utopia in a Global world (my big smile here )

It seems like we are in agreement, again.

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Posted 19 October 2000 - 10:19 AM

MosJan,

I have only limited respect towards Vazgen Sarkissyan, but I have to agree with him. There are a lot of other things going in the equation, unfortunately. It is not only about fighting and winning the war. It is also about arming that army, feeding it, supplying with ammunition, spare parts, gasoline, etc. I have claimed many years ago, when things were being shaped in the analytic domain only, that Armenia's natural border with Azerbeijan is the river Kurr.

I was very anxious to see Evlakh be taken, and then the Hydro Power Station in Mingechauri. But, you know, there is also a diplomatic aspect to the war. Winning the war militarily, but loosing it diplomatically is not much of a winning.

Look at it. We have basically won it militarily. It is very important. But cannot win it diplomatically, yet.

And if you look at the growth of our economy, it doesn’t look like we have won the war.

Much like the Soviets, who won the WW2, but over the long run, turned out that the Germans are the winners (my personal assessment – some may disagree).




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