Is There Such A Thing As Western Armenian Culture?

Or are we just trying to avoid saying turkish-Armenian???

[This message has been edited by Pilafhead (edited January 25, 2001).]

Obviously there is a such thing as Western Armenian poetry, and it is a fascinating one. It is one of the jewels of overall Armenian culture. But I would rather call it Istanbul Armenian culture.

Also, we have to specify what era are we talking about.

On the other hand, when the culture in western Armenia has faded away in its Armenian form, it has done the same also in Eastern Armenia.

I see it not as a Western-Eastern issue, but rather an issue of dissipating cultural identity after a prolonged period of dominance by other nations.

MJ, for the poetry, aren't you confusing "western Armenia" with the Western Armenian dialect? They are not the same (and I think that most of "western Armenia" actually spoke what we would now call eastern Armenian). Am I right in assuming that the phrase "western Armenia" is a post 1920s invention?

Steve

Steve, I am not sure if I understand your question properly. I don't mean just a poetry written in Western Armenian dialect, if this is what you mean. I think the Western Armenian poetry is somewhat different from the Eastern. It has been shaped under the influence of then popular French sentimentalism. It has produced pearls of poetry, in my view.

About the same time, the Eastern Armenian poetry has also picked up acceleration, and has produced equal values.

Other than just being a poetry, both have been a great demonstration of the depth and the beauty of Armenian language, and its capacity of articulation.

But if I misunderstood you, please be more precise.

MJ, sorry I assumed what you meant poetry written in western Armenian. But now you are now me! What do you mean by "Western Armenian poetry" You are going to have to define "western Armenia". Istanbul is hardly "western Armenia" and I think (please correct me if I am wrong) the designation of places like Van, Erzurum, Sivas as being in "western Armenia" dates from a time when there were no Armenians in these places. Before that time an Armenian poet from Van would not have thought of himself as being from "western Armenia"

Steve

Steve, I meant basically poetry written by Western Armenians, and sure, in Western Armenian, regardless of the geography. I am not aware of any Western Armenian poets from Van (not considering Narekatsi, and his contemporaries). Any such poet that I am aware of has either lived in Istanbul, or Europe.

And of course I don’t define Istanbul to be part of Western Armenia, as much as I would not define Tiflis to be part of Eastern Armenia. But these two cities have been the cradles of Armenian culture, including poetry, in the 19th and early 20th centuries.

Just realised first part of my previous post went missing! - what it should have read is: "MJ, sorry, when you mentioned western Armenian poetry I assumed what you meant was poetry written in western Armenian. But now you are confusing me!"

But you are still confusing me, MJ. What do you mean by a "western Armenian" if you are not using it as a geographical description for parts of modern Turkey. Do you mean an Armenian living in a western European country?? But that seems a very strange definition if that's what you meen - terms like "diaspora" are usually used to define such communities, and what about Armenians in America, Australia, middle east, etc?

Confused

Steve

Let me bring some light.

There are two distinguishable Armenian lands and Armenian dialects and this is what I will now clarify.
The creation of Western Armenia dates back to the middle age when the Mongols invaded Armenia. Armenian fled near the Mediteranean sea, North of Syria and South of present Turkey. This land was called Cilicia (Lower Armenia). This land had it's first great influence from the French when, during the crusades the Armenian and the Christian Europeans were allies. The last king of Cilician Armenia, Levon (or Léon in french) is now burried in France. Later, these Armenians were ruled by Turks and Ottomans.

There are also Armenians who stayed in Armenia, Greater Armenia, more or less in the borders of present Armenia. These Armenians had the protections of the Persians (Iran) and later the Russians.

This created two different cultures and dialects but with the sentiment of unity. Western Armenia was closer to Turkish tradition with a clear influence in the spoken dialect (eg. "gor", "hadi!") and Eastern Armenia having words from Russian influence (eg. "cartophil" for patatoes).

Now, why is this "Western Armenian" spoken in Australia, USA, etc.. (diasopra) ? Well simply because the Armenians attacked by the Turks were the Turkish-Armenians, from Istanbul and from Eastern Turkey.
Actually, the Turkish and Russian sides had Armenian soldiers in their armies so we had Armenians killing eachother without really being aware.

Hope it's more clear..

Steve,

I get an impression of "splitting hair."

What I have tried to emphasize was that there is more to Western Armenian poetry than the Western Armenian dialect. It is the style, the spirit, and, yes, the dialect.

As to "Western Armenia" being a post 1920 invention, I guess one can accurately say it is a post-Wilsonian invention.

In different eras a different name has been in circulation. It appears that in the immediate pre- 1920s climate, it has just been called Armenia, or Turkish Armenia ("Tatjkahaiastan") while Eastern Armenia has been called Russian Armenia ("Russahaiastan").

It is hard to follow your arguments, because it seems to me you are articulating them half way, or you are trying to lead me to the answer you want to hear. I think it would be more constructive if you could just articulate your argument explicitly.

MJ, I'm not trying to hair split - just trying to get a definition of what you are refering to as "western Armenian poetry" (you used the phrase - not me!) especially when you later said (or seemed to say) that it was not poetry written in "western Armenia" or poetry written in western Armenian dialect.

But the following IS hair splitting!

Following on from RaffiY's post. "Cilicia" is the Classical Roman name for the lands later settled by Armenian migrants during the 11th century and onwards. "Kingdom of Armenia", or "little Armenian" or "Armenian Cilicia" (not "Cilician Armenia") are correct terms for these areas. "Lesser Armenia" is not correct. "Lesser Armenia" is what the Romans used to define the parts of Armenia within their Empire. Lessser Armenia was further divided into First, Second, Third, and Fourth Armenia! Just because the Romans called these regions in their control "Armenia" does not mean that they were populated by Armenians. The Romans were using it as a geographical term - NOT an ethnic one. Armenians were in the minority within lesser Armenia. "Greater Armenia" is actually also a Roman term concept - defining that part of Armenia outwith their empire.

Now lets argue about the borders of "Western Armenia"!!

Steve

Dear Steve,

There are two well-defined tracks of Armenian poetry – Eastern and Western.

Prior to this discussion of ours, nobody that I know, has tried to give scientific definitions to them. But there are sort of two collections of poetic compositions primarily defined by the dialects (your comments are correct in this regard), but what I have tried to articulate is that the differences between what we refer to be Eastern and Western Armenian poetries are more than the dialects. The differences are also in the spirit, style, rhythm, mentality, and the landscape they portray.

Now, in this sense of the word, the representatives of Western Armenian poetry have primarily resided in Istanbul. That’s where that culture has existed – much like the Impressionist culture has primarily concentrated in Paris, but to a large degree people may say in France, not even denying that some Impressionists have created in Netherlands, for example. Several of the renowned Western Armenian poets in fact have spent the majority of their lives in Europe. However they have continued to belong to the same school of Western Armenian poetry. One can claim absolutely the same about Eastern Armenian poetry.

When we, Armenians, refer to Western Armenian poetry, the geographic context of it is the least in our minds. We understand a school under that concept. Same with Eastern Armenian poetry, as I said. I hope this is more precise.

Now, you don't have to contrast RaffiY’s postings to my arguments. Raffi should take responsibility for his arguments, I will do it for mine.

As to the arguments about geographic boundaries you bring, I basically agree with you, and outside the borders of Cilicia, I agree that Armenia in its robust sense of the word has not extended ever beyond, approximately, Van. Even the Cilician kingdom I consider to be an isolated and accidental phenomenon (though my maternal side descends from there ).

In a way, one can describe it in terms of two or more mixable liquids in one container. There are some well defined regions in the container where one may tell with certainty which liquid is which, but there is also an intermediate sector, where both liquids have diffused, and the very concept of which is which has become invalid, because non of them is the original liquid anymore. Now, if you would stir the entire content, go figure, which is which, anymore.

The only evidence of borders of any country is the one recognized or specified by the internationally or bilaterally political documents. And this is true not only in the Armenian landscape but anywhere. Anything beyond these standards is an idle talk or emotion. In the case of our forum, it is an emotion, by in large, for which we should not be too judgmental, I think.

However, there are few documents reasonably specifying the borders of Western and Eastern Armenia.

There are three documents regarding Eastern Armenia. The first one is the agreement on the demarcation lines between Turkey and Russia (sorry cannot tell the dates). This document would not have any political significance itself, but may serve as a pretext in invalidating the subsequent bilateral Russian-Turkish, and four-lateral Turkish-Caucasian Treaties. Each of these Treaties may be a subject of separate conversation, and is a very serious topic. Let’s not expand in that direction, now.

As to the Western Armenian boundaries, the only document that is internationally accepted, but not enforced is the Wilsonian Armenia recognized at the time by the Severes Treaty by all parties (including Turkey), except Russia.

This is the only non-emotional and non-idle definition of Western Armenia that I can offer.