433 replies to this topic

[Sip]

I think this entire conversation is going down a very useless path. The argument being put forth is the impact Christianity has had in the past on us as a people. This impact, good or bad, is undeniable.

However, I think a better way to reason about it is with the analogy of a child being forced to wear a diaper in the earlier parts of her life. At some point, the diaper is no longer needed and just comes off. I feel the same about religion ... it's time to grow up.

Edited by Sip, 14 March 2006 - 12:18 AM.

[Sip]

Sip, this is too funny!

It's funny but scary at the same time ... it is really the case that some want to keep everyone in the caves so to speak, preserving the status quo forever

[aSoldier]

Who else do I spit on? Since you seem to know my actions. Are you sure that was a religious war?

He fought for our Christian-Armenian way of life, don't deny it.

[Yervant1]

He fought for our Christian-Armenian way of life, don't deny it.

Yes Armenian way of life.

[aSoldier]

I think a better way to reason about it is with the analogy of a child being forced to wear a diaper in the earlier parts of her life. At some point, the diaper is no longer needed and just comes off. I feel the same about religion ... it's time to grow up.

You aren't forced into anything. It's your choice to accept Christ.

I see the daiper as your worldly (secular) life, which you are born into, but when you actually "grow up", you wear the underwear, your new(born again) life.

[aSoldier]

Yes Armenian way of life.

You're only fooling yourself...

[Sip]

You aren't forced into anything. It's your choice to accept Christ.

I see the daiper as your worldly (secular) life, which you are born into, but when you actually "grow up", you wear the underwear, your new(born again) life.

No, it YOUR choice to accept Christ. Whether or not you are Armenian, should have no bearing on your choice in this day and age.

[aSoldier]

Isn't that what I just said?

[armjan]

let's talk about b.s.

i am sick of this anti-semitic crap. The sooner you ppl get over that, the better you'll feel , or atleast i hope.

second, why are ppl constantly trying to remind us of what armenian is/was. Who are you to be the absolute authority as to what it should be. It's only natural for ppl to live their lives the way they want to, and so why is it up to you to remind them of how YOU think things should be. This is very IROGANT. I personnally have more patience to ppl who speak of fairly tails than listen to this unjustified, arrogant POV. How do you know what is was, and more importantly, when was this ever absolute and agreed upon by most or all? What is agreed upon by most or all? lol

third, let's entertain the idea that as people grow up, they might actually find rational/justification for their belief in christianity/thoelogy as opposed to always thinking that followers have been indocrinated. In the absence of further evidence, I can't imagine any of your guesses being any better than theirs. Moreover, if your not follower, then how could you know what it means to be one. You can take a guess, but that's not what 80% of the replies to this thread have been. Lets all look at our mirrors first!

to the ppl of faith who've participated on this thread, I am excited to read that things are working out for you. What's important is we realize to share, tolerate and understand the diversity of our beliefs and the interpretations from whom it's provided in such a way to practice of policy of inclusion of our differences, and this need not imply conformance to that particular religion.

Edited by armjan, 14 March 2006 - 03:06 AM.

[Yervant1]

You're only fooling yourself...

Armenians who lived for centuries before Christianity are they fooling themselves too? Or does the Armenian history starts with Religion?

[Anoushik]

Now, in your specific case; adhereing to society's rules, ethics, mores and being good to your friends, family and neighbors if you so chose, then that's sufficient for you. Then only then you will feel that you are a good person doing good in this world. Agreed?

I think that when we are born into this world and grow up in a society, as adults we have pretty clear views about what good is and what bad is. We know that certain actions that we do might not be good, or that something we have done or are doing are excellent. This has nothing to do with God. We all know how we would like to lead life, and sometimes we contradict our beliefs with something that we should not have done. If you constantly question your actions, determining whether they uphold to your viewpoint in life, and try to live your life by the principles you hold, then I would say you live a happy life.

[Ludwig9]

First of all your mixing Race with Religion, these are two different things even though church wants you to believe as one. Second take it or leave it attitude your showing is very unchristian and also it takes away your right to question the church's wrongdoings.
Who says that in order to be Armenian you should be Christian or Religious? Oh I rememberd the Church.

It’s not an attitude I am just re-iterating a fact. Again, I am saying that no one is forcing anyone to be an Armenian or a Christian. If we are to assume that Armenians who are not Christian are Armenians as well, why don’t we accept the Armenian muslims, such as the Hamshems is eastern turkey, and the Armenian Jews who are currently living in Armenia? Or how about the Turks, who have Armenian blood in them, or the Persians whom the Armenians have the closest historical relation too?

Armenians who lived for centuries before Christianity are they fooling themselves too? Or does the Armenian history starts with Religion?

Movses Khorenatsi, who is considered the Father of Armenian History, was a bishop of the Armenian Church, as was Yeghishe and David the Invincible, who studied under Mesrob Mashots. So to some degree the documentation of Armenian history didn’t start until a person from the Church wrote it down.

I think this entire conversation is going down a very useless path. The argument being put forth is the impact Christianity has had in the past on us as a people. This impact, good or bad, is undeniable.

However, I think a better way to reason about it is with the analogy of a child being forced to wear a diaper in the earlier parts of her life. At some point, the diaper is no longer needed and just comes off. I feel the same about religion ... it's time to grow up.

If you think this entire conversation is useless don’t partake in it.

[Yervant1]

It’s not an attitude I am just re-iterating a fact. Again, I am saying that no one is forcing anyone to be an Armenian or a Christian. If we are to assume that Armenians who are not Christian are Armenians as well, why don’t we accept the Armenian muslims, such as the Hamshems is eastern turkey, and the Armenian Jews who are currently living in Armenia? Or how about the Turks, who have Armenian blood in them, or the Persians whom the Armenians have the closest historical relation too?
Movses Khorenatsi, who is considered the Father of Armenian History, was a bishop of the Armenian Church, as was Yeghishe and David the Invincible, who studied under Mesrob Mashots. So to some degree the documentation of Armenian history didn’t start until a person from the Church wrote it down.

Again you are making the same mistake when you say " I am saying that no one is forcing anyone to be an Armenian or a Christian". Why are you putting the two together when they are two different things?

Any person who has Armenian blood, feels Armenian and has Armenian culture wants to be Armenian also has Armenian interests in his or her heart is an Armenian to me regardless of their religion.

As for the clergy being the writers of history, it's obvious because the monasteries were also the center of literature. Education was not readily available to the common people. Kings also gave monatery support to them. I wonder how much the church supressed education outside their monasteries?

[Takoush]

I think that when we are born into this world and grow up in a society, as adults we have pretty clear views about what good is and what bad is. We know that certain actions that we do might not be good, or that something we have done or are doing are excellent. This has nothing to do with God. We all know how we would like to lead life, and sometimes we contradict our beliefs with something that we should not have done. If you constantly question your actions, determining whether they uphold to your viewpoint in life, and try to live your life by the principles you hold, then I would say you live a happy life.

Yes you make good sense. In my case though, I try to do all that; but I also believe in God. Not only do I believe in God Anoushik jan; I also love Him. I am not frightened of Him as much as I love Him. Though sometimes I am frightened too, that if I go in the opposite direction than it is written in the scriptures; then He'll punish me. Though I have grown to love Him more than being frightened. I didn't feel this way when I was about your age. I went through some hard times in my life and that's when I went to Him more so.

I know, you don't believe in God and I of course cannot force you or push you in that direction, it wouldn't even work; but I do believe in Him, Anoushik. I really do. I try to read from the scripctures every now and then, but I don't like pushing the scriptures on others; because sometimes you can come off being harsh and that can be a turnoff to the ones that are disbelievers or even to the believers too. I think it best to leave it either alone or be more suttle and easy on people, I mean quoting from the scriptures. In my opinion it's better that way so people will not be turned off and they may rebel more, you see?

Coming back to what you just said. Yes it is a very good policy to constantly question your actions, whether they support your mores and your viewpoint in life, so that you'll always live with your principles that you hold. I call that knowing yourself. And one should always know themselves at all times. Yes then you will lead a happy life.

Edited by Anahid Takouhi, 14 March 2006 - 04:38 PM.

[Takoush]

It's funny but scary at the same time ... it is really the case that some want to keep everyone in the caves so to speak, preserving the status quo forever

Geees Sip; you are so well read and yet you think like a child sometimes. Didn't you notice my sarcasm? Or do I have to spell it out for you. I mean common. You were not really very complementing lately to me and why do you think I'm giving you sarcasm....geeeeeessss......I mean really? And for one minute you think that I am going to agree to put you in a cave seriously?

SHEESH!!!

[Sasun]

Geees Sip; you are so well read and yet you think like a child sometimes. Didn't you notice my sarcasm? Or do I have to spell it out for you. I mean common. You were not really very complementing lately to me and why do you think I'm giving you sarcasm....geeeeeessss......I mean really? And for one minute you think that I am going to agree to put you in a cave seriously?

SHEESH!!!

I think Sip would not mind a cave provided there was a Jeep, computer and high speed internet... oh yeah, and a buffet - or should I say a plenty of easy to catch fat animals around?

[Takoush]

I think Sip would not mind a cave provided there was a Jeep, computer and high speed internet... oh yeah, and a buffet - or should I say a plenty of easy to catch fat animals around?

You're funny Sasun jan.

[Sip]

Very funny Sasun

Anahid, I was not talking about you in specific. I know you were joking. I was talking about all those in general, that rather have us stay in the "dark ages" of religion and living our lives based on what we are told, rather than have us open our eyes and discover The Truth (whatever that may be) on our own.

By the way, I don't know where this "well read" business comes from. I am probably one of the very worst read of all around here

[aSoldier]

Armenians who lived for centuries before Christianity are they fooling themselves too? Or does the Armenian history starts with Religion?

WHAT?

I'm saying you are only fooling yourself if you really think Vartan Mamigonian died for only Armenianess, and not Christianity along with it.

[Takoush]

Very funny Sasun

Anahid, I was not talking about you in specific. I know you were joking. I was talking about all those in general, that rather have us stay in the "dark ages" of religion and living our lives based on what we are told, rather than have us open our eyes and discover The Truth (whatever that may be) on our own.

By the way, I don't know where this "well read" business comes from. I am probably one of the very worst read of all around here

Well I suppose I was mostly referring to your PHd doctorate degree.