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#61 nairi

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Posted 15 August 2007 - 11:10 AM

QUOTE(Harut @ Aug 15 2007, 04:38 PM)
true... but the difference is that men are usually straight forward with their demands... and there is not much change in their behavior from dating to marriage life... but women, they seduce (read, grab men from their balls) and then dictate their wishes...


This is not true. Men can be as sneaky and seductive. If a woman knows that the man she has fallen in love with is going to beat her up in future, I doubt she'd marry him.

Honestly, I wish this division between men and women would stop. Let's look at individual human beings, and we may well find that generalizations like "all women are like this" and "all men are like that" are completely unfounded. Yes, there are abusive women. In the same way, there are abusive men. Yes, women can be sneaky. But so can men. Yes, women can be nurturing and loving. So can men. Etc.

#62 Sasun

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Posted 15 August 2007 - 11:12 AM

QUOTE(Yervant1 @ Aug 15 2007, 01:02 PM)
Good to see you again Sasun Jan, great post as usuall.
Unfortunately nowadays mostly people are asking what's in it for ME. smile.gif

Thanks, and good to be here smile.gif

#63 Anonymouse

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Posted 15 August 2007 - 12:06 PM

QUOTE(nairi @ Aug 15 2007, 03:42 AM)
Arman,

The reason why you are so negative about compromise is because you have stereotyped men and women to such an extent that you can no longer see any individual differences.



You speak as if stereotypes are on par with fairy tales, pixie dust, and the old lady that lived in a shoe. Stereotypes are real, precisely for the fact that they exist. If they were not, they would not be there. Stereotypes are used to describe generalities. Even though one should not judge a book by its cover, stereotypes do have an affect humanity as they are a reflection of human perception. Choosing to ignore them, and make the exceptions as the rule does not absolve all the generalities that are common to the genders.

QUOTE(nairi @ Aug 15 2007, 03:42 AM)
Not all women like shallow comedies, and not all men like beer and football. Not all women want to change their man, and not all men have no interest in changing their woman. Get this out of your head. Once you do, you may well find someone with whom you will not mind compromising little things.


I have never stated, at least I believe I have not, that all women are one monolithic entity. But for the most part, women do behave in certain ways that makes them women, aside from the obvious physical manifestations. Men behave in certain ways that makes them men, aside from the obvious physical manifestations.

That there are women that do not like shallow comedies and do not want to change their man, does not mean that most women out there are not like that. Most women like shopping, most women talk a lot, most women gossip, most women like to give their homes a makeover just like their men. Most women, in fact, get together with a man for the prime reason of trying to "change him". There is always something wrong with a man and women have the 'make over' gene to try and change that. And, it is no accident that the purse is designed to look like a woman's vagina.

QUOTE(nairi @ Aug 15 2007, 03:42 AM)
Like I said earlier: you will never find anyone who is 100% in tune with you. Whichever way you take it, any successful relationship is based on giving, taking, and losing some (or gaining some, if we believe Vava). If you don't want to give and lose some, then stay out of a relationship.


Like I said, this is not about finding anyone who is 100% in tune. It's about accepting me for who I am and not trying to pretend to do so, and then try and change me or force me to make compromises here and there. I think you of all people can identify with this the most. One does not have to be my carbon copy in values or views to just accept me.

Edited by Anonymouse, 15 August 2007 - 12:07 PM.


#64 Harut

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Posted 15 August 2007 - 01:10 PM

QUOTE(nairi @ Aug 15 2007, 10:10 AM)
This is not true. Men can be as sneaky and seductive. If a woman knows that the man she has fallen in love with is going to beat her up in future, I doubt she'd marry him.

Honestly, I wish this division between men and women would stop. Let's look at individual human beings, and we may well find that generalizations like "all women are like this" and "all men are like that" are completely unfounded. Yes, there are abusive women. In the same way, there are abusive men. Yes, women can be sneaky. But so can men. Yes, women can be nurturing and loving. So can men. Etc.


well... in general you're right... i guess my subjective opinion comes from the fact that i don't concern myself with what men do, or how they are, or how they behave... i don't date them... tongue.gif

#65 nairi

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Posted 15 August 2007 - 01:19 PM

QUOTE(Anonymouse @ Aug 15 2007, 08:06 PM)
You speak as if stereotypes are on par with fairy tales, pixie dust, and the old lady that lived in a shoe. Stereotypes are real, precisely for the fact that they exist. If they were not, they would not be there. Stereotypes are used to describe generalities. Even though one should not judge a book by its cover, stereotypes do have an affect humanity as they are a reflection of human perception. Choosing to ignore them, and make the exceptions as the rule does not absolve all the generalities that are common to the genders.


I not only question this claim, I also reject it. If only because I have met all too many people in my life that do not fit in their given stereotypes.

QUOTE
I have never stated, at least I believe I have not, that all women are one monolithic entity.


You clearly stated that women always want to change men and that they all have that innate gene for "makeovers."

QUOTE
That there are women that do not like shallow comedies and do not want to change their man, does not mean that most women out there are not like that. Most women like shopping, most women talk a lot, most women gossip, most women like to give their homes a makeover just like their men. Most women, in fact, get together with a man for the prime reason of trying to "change him". There is always something wrong with a man and women have the 'make over' gene to try and change that. And, it is no accident that the purse is designed to look like a woman's vagina.


See, most women that I know do none of the things that you have described above. Therefore, I can conclude that most women do not like shopping, they do not like talking a lot, they never gossip, and could care less about decoration.

Did you know that my neighbor's house, a heterosexual male, is much more organized and decorated than mine? The guy cares much more about his looks, shopping, and gossiping about other neighbors than I do. Am I to generalize his behavior as being stereotypically that of men? No. Because unlike you, I do not believe in generalizations.

QUOTE
Like I said, this is not about finding anyone who is 100% in tune. It's about accepting me for who I am and not trying to pretend to do so, and then try and change me or force me to make compromises here and there. I think you of all people can identify with this the most. One does not have to be my carbon copy in values or views to just accept me.


Once again, nobody's forcing you. It is a choice you make. My choice is to stay out of one, because I know the consequences of a relationship. Whether you like it or not, any successful relationship is about compromise. If you can find one where you will never have to compromise, or where you will never ask of your partner to compromise, then kudos to you. So far, I have never heard of such a relationship--certainly not a long-term one.

#66 Sip

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Posted 15 August 2007 - 03:28 PM

QUOTE(nairi @ Aug 15 2007, 02:19 PM)
I do not believe in generalizations.


Now there's a paradoxical generalization biggrin.gif

#67 Aratta-Kingdom

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Posted 15 August 2007 - 09:39 PM

QUOTE(Anonymouse @ Aug 13 2007, 07:58 PM)
What are you trying to say? If that's your subtle way of saying compromise without saying the word compromise, then you're wrong.

Respect and understanding are mutually exclusive from compromise.



In a tactical relationship, compromise means to yeild a ground, to tolerate the intolerable...to lose yourself in the process of interaction.
If you wanna bridge with someone, you better learn the art of building a relationship based on true values. Understanding and acceptance got nothing in common with compromise/tolerance.



#68 Aratta-Kingdom

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Posted 15 August 2007 - 09:59 PM

QUOTE(Yervant1 @ Aug 14 2007, 08:40 AM)
Guys the word is "Love" true love.
If there is love in a relationship the rest is secondary.


Sorry Yervant jan, i think the word is 'respect' real respect. Ser@, srti hamazor zark unenal@ payman e haraberutyunneri skzbnakan shrjani hamar. Someone has already mentioned that with time we all change-and so our understanding of love. Mrdkayin poxharaberutyunneri himnaqar@ bolor jamanaknerum yegel u mnalu e harganq@.


#69 Anonymouse

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Posted 15 August 2007 - 10:38 PM

QUOTE(nairi @ Aug 15 2007, 02:19 PM)
I not only question this claim, I also reject it. If only because I have met all too many people in my life that do not fit in their given stereotypes.


Oh joy. You reject it because you have met exceptions to the rule and you go on thinking like that. To think otherwise is counter to your ideological prism (and we all have one we just don't always agree on the prism).

QUOTE(nairi @ Aug 15 2007, 02:19 PM)
You clearly stated that women always want to change men and that they all have that innate gene for "makeovers."


Yes, and I clearly stated that I was talking about most women, and I also clearly stated exceptions do not disprove the rule, no matter how much people want to appeal to their own idea of the way things ought to be.

QUOTE(nairi @ Aug 15 2007, 02:19 PM)
See, most women that I know do none of the things that you have described above. Therefore, I can conclude that most women do not like shopping, they do not like talking a lot, they never gossip, and could care less about decoration.


Who cares about who you know? This isn't about you. If that were the case, why bother even having studies and things of that nature? Why not just get scientists and researches to just come and knock at your door and ask you for your opinions, or better yet, they can just come to hyeforum and read and get all the research they need.

QUOTE(nairi @ Aug 15 2007, 02:19 PM)
Did you know that my neighbor's house, a heterosexual male, is much more organized and decorated than mine? The guy cares much more about his looks, shopping, and gossiping about other neighbors than I do. Am I to generalize his behavior as being stereotypically that of men? No. Because unlike you, I do not believe in generalizations.


The key word here is belief. You can choose to believe whatever you want to believe.

QUOTE(nairi @ Aug 15 2007, 02:19 PM)
Once again, nobody's forcing you. It is a choice you make. My choice is to stay out of one, because I know the consequences of a relationship. Whether you like it or not, any successful relationship is about compromise. If you can find one where you will never have to compromise, or where you will never ask of your partner to compromise, then kudos to you. So far, I have never heard of such a relationship--certainly not a long-term one.


Did I say anyone is forcing me? This isn't about force, nor is it about finding your carbon copy. You folks, and especially you, can't seem to understand the difference between respecting and accepting someone for the person that they are, versus trying to make them take the road down to compromise. If friends have to try so hard to appeal to their friends to find common ground, that friendship will lead to dissolution and division. My point stands. And just like you claim you have seen exceptions all around you, I, too, have witnessed exceptional relationships where the couples accept each other for who they are and do not impose their egos on one another and talk about "compromise". You compromise when you are a negotiator negotiating with someone who is holding hostages. That isn't what a relationship is supposed to be. If you believe that, then good thing you have chosen to be single.

Edited by Anonymouse, 15 August 2007 - 10:59 PM.


#70 Anonymouse

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Posted 15 August 2007 - 10:40 PM

QUOTE(Aratta-Kingdom @ Aug 15 2007, 10:39 PM)
In a tactical relationship, compromise means to yeild a ground, to tolerate the intolerable...to lose yourself in the process of interaction.
If you wanna bridge with someone, you better learn the art of building a relationship based on true values. Understanding and acceptance got nothing in common with compromise/tolerance.


I'm sorry, it's been a long day. But, are you agreeing with me or disagreeing?

#71 nairi

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Posted 15 August 2007 - 11:07 PM

QUOTE(Anonymouse @ Aug 16 2007, 06:38 AM)
Oh joy. You reject it because you have met exceptions to the rule and you go on thinking like that.


If there even was a rule, then there would not be so many "exceptions." The fact that there are so many "exceptions" in itself already disproves the rule.

QUOTE
Yes, and I clearly stated that I was talking about most women, and I also clearly stated exceptions do not disprove the rule, no matter how much people want to appeal to their own idea of the way things ought to be.


You're changing your tune, as usual. You clearly stated: "women always want compromise." My main problem with you is that you seem to have this instinctive, innate hatred and resentment towards women, and like to use any opportunity you get to lash out at them as if they owe you something. Have you considered that there are many men who also want compromise, for instance? Is it more acceptable for you when men do it than when women do it? If so, why?


QUOTE
Who cares about who you know? This isn't about you. If that were the case, why bother even having studies and things of that nature?


If I were to believe in studies, I might as well no longer exist. I say, thank god I have seen more, otherwise I would be like you: living up to my stereotype and be proud of it, instead of shaping my own individuality, to whatever extent that is possible.

QUOTE
The key word here is belief. You can choose to believe whatever you want to believe.


And I have plenty of proof too. Your nineteenth-century rules and exceptions are no longer of this time, my friend. Get your nose out of books and start looking around you. Times have changed a long time ago.

QUOTE
Did I say anyone is forcing me? This isn't about force, nor is it about finding your carbon copy. You folks, and especially you, can't seem to understand the difference between respecting and accepting someone for the person that they are, versus trying to make them take the road down to compromise. If friends have to try so hard to appeal to their friends to find common ground, that friendship will lead to dissolution and division. My point stands. And just like you claim you have seen exceptions all around you, I, too, have witnessed exceptional relationships where the couples accept each other for who they are and do not impose their egos on one another and talk about "compromise". You compromise when you are a negotiator negotiating with a someone who is holding hostages. That isn't what a relationship is supposed to be. If you believe that, then good thing you have chosen to be single.


Like I said, if you can find someone like that, kudos to you. Even the most successful couples that I know compromise one way or another. Call it trade-off if you wish. Same shit to me.

#72 Anonymouse

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Posted 15 August 2007 - 11:32 PM

QUOTE(nairi @ Aug 16 2007, 12:07 AM)
If there even was a rule, then there would not be so many "exceptions." The fact that there are so many "exceptions" in itself already disproves the rule.


Once again, like typical women, she assumes that all her experience and her life is the reference point for the world. There are plenty of exceptions to rules, that there are "so many" could be because you were either juts (a) fortunate enough to meet all the exceptions or ( b ), even if they weren't you will in your mind warp them to be the exceptions.

QUOTE(nairi @ Aug 16 2007, 12:07 AM)
You're changing your tune, as usual. You clearly stated: "women always want compromise."


I'm not changing anything, toots. I clearly stated "most women" several times, including "exceptions to the rule". That you read that was not meant to be read out of context and should be read in the context of my general stance. You either misread or misunderstood it out of context, or you intentionally did so.

QUOTE(nairi @ Aug 16 2007, 12:07 AM)
My main problem with you is that you seem to have this instinctive, innate hatred and resentment towards women, and like to use any opportunity you get to lash out at them as if they owe you something. Have you considered that there are many men who also want compromise, for instance? Is it more acceptable for you when men do it than when women do it? If so, why?


Innate hatred towards women? Where do you gather that? If you are going to make baseless accusations, you should back them up. And now, my guess is, you will cower and run away. How have I lashed at women? By stating that most women like like to make over a guy? This is not an issue of whether men should be more compromising than women, or vice versa, it's an issue of compromise period. That I happen to speak about women, is from my perspective as a man, toots.

QUOTE(nairi @ Aug 16 2007, 12:07 AM)
If I were to believe in studies, I might as well no longer exist. I say, thank god I have seen more, otherwise I would be like you: living up to my stereotype and be proud of it, instead of shaping my own individuality, to whatever extent that is possible.
And I have plenty of proof too.


Well then it's a good thing that you don't! Otherwise, hyeforum would be nairiless and that would certainly be a bad thing. smile.gif

QUOTE(nairi @ Aug 16 2007, 12:07 AM)
Your nineteenth-century rules and exceptions are no longer of this time, my friend. Get your nose out of books and start looking around you. Times have changed a long time ago.


How are my views 19th century when just 50 years ago it was still the norm? And what about my views are wrong or evil or backward? Please tell me.

QUOTE(nairi @ Aug 16 2007, 12:07 AM)
Like I said, if you can find someone like that, kudos to you. Even the most successful couples that I know compromise one way or another. Call it trade-off if you wish. Same shit to me.


The most successful couples that you know. Again, this is not about you. Who cares about what you know? To you, it's a feminist world of where women can do no wrong, men are evil, and compromise is the way like in a hostage negotiation.

So you would compromise if you were to get into a relationship? I would be hard pressed to believe that and I believe this is in fact a prime reason for your choice to remain in solitude. Don't be a hypocrite, toots.

Edited by Anonymouse, 15 August 2007 - 11:32 PM.


#73 nairi

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Posted 15 August 2007 - 11:35 PM

For a man, you do yap a lot.

I'm done talking to you.

#74 Anonymouse

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Posted 15 August 2007 - 11:38 PM

I know, but that is how I am able to push your buttons. smile.gif

#75 nairi

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 04:26 AM

QUOTE(Anonymouse @ Aug 16 2007, 07:38 AM)
I know, but that is how I am able to push your buttons. smile.gif


smile.gif I have more important things in my life to worry about than a silly kid with too much free time on his hands. You're just fun to play around with once in a while, when I'm bored.

Cheers.

#76 nairi

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 05:02 AM

QUOTE(Harut @ Aug 15 2007, 09:10 PM)
well... in general you're right... i guess my subjective opinion comes from the fact that i don't concern myself with what men do, or how they are, or how they behave... i don't date them... tongue.gif


You're one of them though. wink.gif

As per usual, Arman has started this thread with gender in the back of his mind, rather than compromise. If it was a discussion on compromise that he truly cared about, he would not have attacked women in his first post. Instead of saying: "all women want to compromise, and I hate that," he could have just as easily said: "Let's talk about compromise. What do you think?" without bringing gender as a divisive tool. He does the same with race, sexuality, and anything else that potentially forms groups and divides them, thinking he is being intelligent and different, instead of silly and shallow.

#77 Yervant1

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 07:08 AM

QUOTE(Aratta-Kingdom @ Aug 15 2007, 11:59 PM)
Sorry Yervant jan, i think the word is 'respect' real respect. Ser@, srti hamazor zark unenal@ payman e haraberutyunneri skzbnakan shrjani hamar. Someone has already mentioned that with time we all change-and so our understanding of love. Mrdkayin poxharaberutyunneri himnaqar@ bolor jamanaknerum yegel u mnalu e harganq@.

Sireli Arratta Jan yerb sirum es mekin iskapes, arden harganq@ het@ne, ches karogh sirel arands harganqi.
Bayts hagarag@ shitak che, k@rnas harqel mek@ yev chi sirel.

Edited by Yervant1, 16 August 2007 - 07:21 AM.


#78 nairi

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 07:52 AM

QUOTE(Yervant1 @ Aug 16 2007, 03:08 PM)
Sireli Arratta Jan yerb sirum es mekin iskapes, arden harganq@ het@ne, ches karogh sirel arands harganqi.
Bayts hagarag@ shitak che, k@rnas harqel mek@ yev chi sirel.


Even when you respect someone you are sharing your life with, you are compromising things that you may not fully agree with.

In other words, compromising is not merely trying to find a midway. That's only one way of looking at it. That is a situation when you like the salt on the left side of the table, but your partner likes it on the right side, so you both agree to put it in the middle. If you don't find a midway in a situation like this, then either partner is going to have to be submissive to the other and simply "accept" the salt to be on the side of the table that their partner prefers. In doing the latter, however, you are also compromising. That is, compromising your own likes and dislikes to please your partner.

I just can't picture a successful relationship where both partners are doing as they wish without either a middle-ground somewhere or one of the two compromising their likes and dislikes. Which is why I keep repeating that any relationship is about giving, taking, and losing some, no matter how much love and respect is involved. Perhaps it's my female side speaking, but I doubt this, since numerous men on this thread are saying the same thing. smile.gif

#79 Yervant1

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 08:05 AM

QUOTE(nairi @ Aug 16 2007, 09:52 AM)
Even when you respect someone you are sharing your life with, you are compromising things that you may not fully agree with.

In other words, compromising is not merely trying to find a midway. That's only one way of looking at it. That is a situation when you like the salt on the left side of the table, but your partner likes it on the right side, so you both agree to put it in the middle. If you don't find a midway in a situation like this, then either partner is going to have to be submissive to the other and simply "accept" the salt to be on the side of the table that their partner prefers. In doing the latter, however, you are also compromising. That is, compromising your own likes and dislikes to please your partner.

I just can't picture a successful relationship where both partners are doing as they wish without either a middle-ground somewhere or one of the two compromising their likes and dislikes. Which is why I keep repeating that any relationship is about giving, taking, and losing some, no matter how much love and respect is involved. Perhaps it's my female side speaking, but I doubt this, since numerous men on this thread are saying the same thing. smile.gif

In a relationship if both partners did as they please, they might as well live separate lives because it won't work. smile.gif
I think this thread turned into word games, in reality we are all saying the same thing with a personal twist of course let's not forget the personal attacks and insults.

#80 nairi

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 08:11 AM

QUOTE(Yervant1 @ Aug 16 2007, 04:05 PM)
In a relationship if both partners did as they please, they might as well live separate lives because it won't work. smile.gif


Which is one of the reasons why I choose to remain single. smile.gif




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