34 replies to this topic

[hagopn]

TECHNICAL DIFFICULTIES

Even if we agree that the 1922 spelling reform was a fatal error, then to make an opposite step in Armenia today would be an awfully difficult, not to say impracticable thing to do.

And why is that? Since the 1922 reforms were thrown out in favor of a "literate man's" compromise anyhow, proper debate for Armenian centered 9and not bolshevik driven) reform is possible, practical, necessary, and strategically important.

The change in the spelling of the state language in Armenia must be carried out at once, at the state level, from top to bottom: more than one orthography cannot be applied in a country. It means that all citizens of the republic, in particular, all officials (from the president and judges to the lowest-ranked policeman) must admit that they are illiterate and begin studying an orthography alien to them. No one can predict from what moment it will be possible to consider that the country is already prepared for passing on to a new orthography.

There is already more than one orthography in place and actively used in Armenia. It's only a matter of time before change occurs, as the author implies, reluctantly. Many media outlets and the Church are using the classical. Kocharian just learned the language, so that should be no problem.

Meanwhile, in the “distant” Diaspora the reform can be made gradually, implanting the new orthography in the course of years. The application of two orthographies at a time is quite acceptable there. By the way, this phenomenon already exists - many of those who left Armenia recently use the new orthography, and there are even newspapers using the new orthography there.

They are in the minority. The majority use the classical orthography. Oh, also important is that the "new orthography" has not prevented those editors and writers from making spelling and grammatical errors. How interesting.

Edited by hagopn, 01 July 2007 - 12:56 AM.

[Shahan Araradian]

The change in the spelling of the state language in Armenia must be carried out at once, at the state level, from top to bottom: more than one orthography cannot be applied in a country. It means that all citizens of the republic, in particular, all officials (from the president and judges to the lowest-ranked policeman) must admit that they are illiterate and begin studying an orthography alien to them. No one can predict from what moment it will be possible to consider that the country is already prepared for passing on to a new orthography.

I've been in contact with Aztag Daily in Lebanon. They use a piece of software developed by a software engineer in Armenia that AUTOMATICALLY converts from traditional orthography to reformed orthography, and vice versa.

So making the switch is just a matter of a few mouse clicks.

If we further want to maintain "intellectual" then, as Hagop is suggesting, education in Classical Armenian is vital -- specifically Classical Armenian PHONOLOGY. Once classical Armenian phonology is known, then spelling becomes trivial! (e.g. recognizing that <փ> really represented the sound /f/ in classical Armenian phonology, hence the name for Phoenician in Armenian is spelled "փիւնիկեցի" and not "Ֆիւնիկեցի"; same goes for phalanx --> փաղանգ; pharos --> փարոս; etc. it follows that "ֆիզիքական" should have been spelled "փիզիքական" and "ֆիլմ" as "փիլմ")

Another example: Why -թիւն and not -թյուն?

Because <իւ> is meant to be pronounced /ʏ/ not /ju/!! So a word like խաղաղութիւն is properly pronounced /χɑʁɑʁutʰʏn/ and NOT /χɑʁɑʁutʰjun/! (Note that in classical Armenian phonology it is pronounced /χɑlɑluθʏn/ (note that թ was a dental fricative as in "th" in English "thin" and ղ was more like /l/)

Edited by Shahan Araradian, 01 July 2007 - 01:14 AM.

[hagopn]

PSYCHOLOGICAL HANDICAPS

There will emerge no less serious psychological obstacles to the re-establishment of classical orthography in Armenia. A considerable part of Diasporan Armenians, at least those whose active language is English or French, find it quite natural that there is no unequivocal interconnection between the way a word is written and pronounced. For example, a native speaker of English is used to spelling out a word unknown to his interlocutor (in a letter-to-letter way) after dropping it in a conversation. Meanwhile, an Armenian taught to write using the new orthography has no need for any “spelling”, the orthography he knows makes it possible to decide the way the new word is to be written in 99 cases out of 100. For this reason, the following scenario can be predicted. When Armenia”s Armenian hears the name of the French city of Marseilles (Marsel in Armenian), he puts it down without thinking, as he knows a clear rule: the sound [e] in an inner position is always written with the corresponding letter “e” (“yech”, the 5th letter of the alphabet). The advocates of classical orthography will tell him: so that you maintain ties with your forefathers” high culture, from now on you must remember that the sound [e] in this word must be written with the use of “e”, the 7th letter of the Armenian alphabet. Armenia”s Armenian will naturally protest: “For which of my sins do I have to cudgel my brains? What has the city of Marseilles to do with Mesrop Mashtots?”

Yet more offensive and insulting nonsense.

POLITICAL PROBLEMS

Let”s consider the most formidable challenge - the political one. An orthographic reform in Armenia can only be carried out according to a decision made by its leadership - the President and Parliament, and, unconditionally, only through a referendum. Obviously, new difficulties besides those considered above will arise, and they will immediately become a subject of active political speculations. For example, it is not difficult to foresee the following. As we already mentioned, along with other traps, the reform is a very expensive pleasure to afford: first, teachers are to be retrained, then the entire population of the country is to be taught anew; new literature is to be printed in huge volumes; road signs, paper money, seals, passports and other things bearing inscriptions are to be replaced by new ones. What will be the source of financing this tremendous project if Armenia cannot even afford to pay its officials decently? They say that some philanthropists from the Diaspora have volunteered to allocate funds to this effect. But as soon as someone just mentions it, no doubt, there will begin a real storm in Armenia: “Don”t we have anything else to spend money on? People do not have enough to eat and do not have proper clothes to wear, people are abandoning the country and you”re wasting huge money only to complicate our orthography.” Only a leader inclined to political suicide will take the initiative.

Here, finally, Mr. Khatchatryan begins to say what he needs to say.

Let”s not forget another aspect of our reality - emigration still looms large in the country as Armenians continue to abandon their homeland. They leave, of course, in search of livelihood. But for many of those leaving Armenia it has become something like itching, they concoct all imaginable and unimaginable excuses to convince their neighbors and themselves that Armenia “is the wrong place to live in”. I have no doubts that the probable change in orthography will give a fresh and drastic impetus to such sentiments. They”ll say: “Armenia is the only country that makes the lives of its citizens miserable by means of complicating orthography. It”s not a country to live in.” And we will no longer be able to object to this. It will, indeed, be the only such country in the world.

This above is far too much exaggerated, but nevertheless falls in line with the cost factor. The cost argument is valid, of course, but it has lost its meaning under all the biased and insulting propagandizing. I'll elaborate below.

WE MUST RESPECT THE STATE

Hereby I could put a full stop to my arguments, but I find it necessary to add another remark, probably the most arguable one.

I mentioned above that during the Bolshevist rule it was not only Armenian that underwent an orthographic change. Four years before the reform of Armenian orthography, in 1918, the Bolshevist government also carried out a reform of Russian orthography, simplifying the way of writing many words, abolishing a number of archaisms and even excluding some letters from the alphabet.

Similarly, the reform in the Russian spelling system sparked off a vigorous protest among the Russian Diaspora. However, hardly a decade had passed that the Russian Diaspora put up with the new orthography, and the Russian Church followed suit. The Russian Diaspora, which, for sure, was no less opposed to the Bolsheviks than the Armenian Diaspora, did not consider itself to be entitled to oppose the decision of the then Russian State. Alas, the Armenian Diaspora was less respectful of the contemporary Armenian State. The most painful is that the Armenian Church acted the same way. And here is the result - we still have no Holy Bible orthographically meant for an Armenian living in Armenia. Even the latest Eastern Armenian translation was printed with the use of classical orthography alien to the residents of Armenia as if for maintaining the existing gap between the Church and the public at large. The foreign sectarians, whose fast spread in Armenia is a matter of widespread concern, take care not to make this elementary mistake in their preaching strategy: it does not occur to them to bring literature written in classical orthography to Armenia. By the way, I retract my statement made at the beginning of the article: there is at least one external force interested in our orthography”s remaining divided, namely, the sectarians.

From a political analyst”s point of view, it is obviously the Diaspora and the Church rather that the Armenian Government that committed a fatal error for the simple reason that arguing with the state over this issue is improper. It is possible to dispute a pending change, but if the state has taken some step, it means that it is always right ever since.

So, I urge my compatriots from the distant Diaspora and our Church fathers to start writing Old Armenian applying the orthography that has been used in the Armenian State by four generations of people, for as long as 80 years now. It will be both a way to pay tribute to the Armenian State and a contribution that can hardly be estimated in monetary terms. Simply, we must admit one thing: it is the Republic of Armenia that is, first of all, the center of Armenians.

Haroutiun Khachatrian is an economy and political analyst in Yerevan, Armenia. He publishes articles in Armenian newspapers and on the www.eurasianet.org site. He is the Editor-in-chief of the Noyan Tapan Highlights weekly.

Mr. Khatchatrian's argumentation style is utterly unimpressive and ineffective. One does not need to indulge in falsehoods, insults, biased and intentionally misrepresentations and yet more divisive commentary to make the legitimate arguements for a 1) State centered identity and 2) the prohibitively costly prospect of and the untimeliness of any such change.

Yes, it is true that Armenia in its current state cannot afford to play around with yet more confusing reforms, and the sectarian opportunism is indeed a valid example of just how the Church could possibly be shooting herself in the foot by forcing the common man to read an orthography that the common man's eye is unaccustomed to.

Yes, it is true that the center of the Armenian identity will need to be the Armenian state.

However, the Russian comparison is not valid for a number of reasons. The principal one is that the USSR was in effect still a Russian Empire with a different government, maintaining its Russian linguistic identity and having a Russia based statehood with a Russian capital city. No Russian Diaspora ever denied having a Russia as their country of origin or as an autonomous Russian homeland.

The Armenians did not have the similar situation of having access to an Armenian homeland and state that - especially until the 1950s - did not manage to maintain links with the Diaporans and show patronage. An Armenian would have to as Moscow's blessing to visit his own homeland, and, yes, this did have serious psychological consequences. The utter cynicism and contempt the Armenian diasporan (and cleric) was treated with by the Bolshevik government centered in the RUSSIAN capital of Moscow had its consequences. Yes, the Armenian diasporan did not see, for the most part, that there was a State of his own to respect.

Now, instead of inviting the Diasporan Armenian to participate and feel attachement, we are seeing the Hrant Khatchatrians of this world insulting our intelligence and downplaying our principal achievement, that of in fact having maintained our NATIONAL and LINGUISTIC IDENTITY with SUCCESS.

I suggest, and "implore" Khatchatrian to take a more, much more, respectful approach to Diasporan Armenians. Perhaps he can start making us feel like we are part of the Armenian state. Perhaps then we shall be able to trust our state as our own and begin to respect its authority in our Armenian lives!

Edited by hagopn, 01 July 2007 - 01:37 AM.

[Gor-Gor]

Yes, the Armenian diasporan did not see, for the most part, that there was a State of his own to respect.

Now, instead of inviting the Diasporan Armenian to participate and feel attachement, we are seeing the Hrant Khatchatrians of this world insulting our intelligence and downplaying our principal achievement, that of in fact having maintained our NATIONAL and LINGUISTIC IDENTITY with SUCCESS.

I suggest, and "implore" Khatchatrian to take a more, much more, respectful approach to Diasporan Armenians. Perhaps he can start making us feel like we are part of the Armenian state. Perhaps then we shall be able to trust our state as our own and begin to respect its authority in our Armenian lives!

Yes, yes, and yes.

That first sentence is one that rings so true for the "traditional Diaspora" (as the RoA now refers to us).

For my parents' generation, there was no Armenia, no Armenian state. The Armenians of Syria and Lebanon had to create a pseudo-state, with Catholicos and ARF as national institutions. And they did a damn good job.

It is one thing to acknowledge the supremacy of the Armenian state (or at least acknowledge it as an equal), but to be treated with such disrespect from some of the 'intellectuals' from the Republic of Armenia is a very tough pill to swallow for those in the "traditional Diasora." It is a case of "What authority do you have to tell us what to do -- we've been doing it on our own for 90 years now..." I liken it to the case of an absentee father coming back into the life of an adult child and telling that child how to make decisions and live its life. Tough thing to do.

[Arpa]

====
If we further want to maintain "intellectual" then, as Hagop is suggesting, education in Classical Armenian is vital -- specifically Classical Armenian PHONOLOGY. Once classical Armenian phonology is known, then spelling becomes trivial! (e.g. recognizing that <փ> really represented the sound /f/ in classical Armenian phonology, hence the name for Phoenician in Armenian is spelled "փիւնիկեցի" and not "Ֆիւնիկեցի"; same goes for phalanx --> փաղանգ; pharos --> փարոս; etc. it follows that "ֆիզիքական" should have been spelled "փիզիքական" and "ֆիլմ" as "փիլմ")

(In parenthesis. the ԹԻՒՆ was never ment to sound like tyun but rther like the French U. The reason why Sayat Nova calls himsel Arutin, Harutyun. գիւղ was never meant to be pronounced "gyugh" but "gugh" as the French would).
As to Փ. We have spoken about this at numerous occasions.
It was totally unnecessary to add Ֆand Օ which happened during the Klikian years. See the reason why;
http://hyeforum.com/...mp;#entry179030
It was simply due to illiteracy and ignorance as far as the Armenian language . Many Kilikian aristocracy did not even know the Armenian language, they spoke French or other European languages. One may understand the case of O, as before that the diphthong of AU/ ԱՒ* was used.
The Ֆ F was introduced simply because through dialectical and provincial influence , when Mashtots devised the Փ it was not only an exact morphological copy of the Greek Phi/Փit was also meant to be pronounced such, that it the Փ was meant to sound like the F. The error has reached us even today. How , when and why it ended up being pronounced as the P is not known. We have spoken about this before, as to how even to this day some people still have a problem with the sounds of F and V. I have heard some Indians say “pibe “ to mean “five”.
Ajarian attests to this phenomenon. After commenting about the creation of the letter and its intended sound here is what he says:
“ Հույն գրի արտասանութիւնը (իբր Ֆ) բնավ դժուարութիւն չի հարուցանում որովհետեւ Մեսրոպի ժամանակ հայերը ( ինչպէս այժմ Ղարաբաղցիք եւ Մեղրեցիք) անընդունակ լինելով Ֆ ձայնը արտասանել, օտարարազգի Ֆ ձայնը Փ էին լսում: Սրա համար է որ բոլոր oտարազգի Ֆ- երը տառադարցուած են Փ գրով. ”
Speaking of the ignorance and the illiteracy of the Kilikian times, I still can’t over the assumption of YEV being the 37th letter.
Duhhh! It just occurred to me, right this moment. I had always questioned why Soviet times (even today) the OU/ՈՒ is given its whole place in lists such as the Encyclopedia, while in traditional literature it is treated as a diphthong of the letter VO/Ո. Duhh! And double duhhh! It is listed where hyun/Ւwould be and it is treated as a letter all by itself. Which, once again brings to mind as to why YEV is not given its own place in reference books. Triple DUHHHH! There are no words or names that begin with Եւeven Yevropa/Europa/Եւրոպա is spelled as Եվրոպա.

* This is a whole different issue as the Ւ was never meant to sound like VՎ but just as its counterpart U sound like the English W. That is why auto/oto/աւտո is pronounced as avto/ավտո instead of օտօ.

Edited by Arpa, 01 July 2007 - 09:48 AM.

[Shahan Araradian]

* This is a whole different issue as the Ւ was never meant to sound like VՎ but just as its counterpart U sound like the English W. That is why auto/oto/աւտո is pronounced as avto/ավտո instead of օտօ.

Precisely! And once people (really "linguists" debating this issue) realize this (via training in classical Armenian phonology) then they will see how ridiculous it is that the <ւ> is being changed to <վ> in reformed orthography, wherever <ւ> is today (incorrectly) being enunciated as /v/.

Diphthongs using <ւ> as in English "w" (take any vowel and add ւ):
աւ -- roughly /o/ (example: աւր -- now օր)
եւ -- roughly /ew/ (example: թեւ -- tew)
իւ -- exactly /ʏ/ http://en.wikipedia....t_rounded_vowel
ու -- exactly /u/

(In parenthesis. the ԹԻՒՆ was never ment to sound like tyun but rther like the French U. The reason why Sayat Nova calls himsel Arutin, Harutyun. գիւղ was never meant to be pronounced "gyugh" but "gugh" as the French would).

Arpha, FYI the IPA symbol for the sound represented by <իւ> is /ʏ/. The name of this sound is a Near-close near-front rounded vowel.

http://en.wikipedia....t_rounded_vowel

A sound bite of this sound -- for our reformed Armenian orthography lovers -- can be found here (so they realize the difference between <իւ> and <յու>):
http://upload.wikime...unded_vowel.ogg

Edited by Shahan Araradian, 01 July 2007 - 11:50 AM.

[Sassun]

For my parents' generation, there was no Armenia, no Armenian state. The Armenians of Syria and Lebanon had to create a pseudo-state, with Catholicos and ARF as national institutions. And they did a damn good job.

It is one thing to acknowledge the supremacy of the Armenian state (or at least acknowledge it as an equal), but to be treated with such disrespect from some of the 'intellectuals' from the Republic of Armenia is a very tough pill to swallow for those in the "traditional Diasora." It is a case of "What authority do you have to tell us what to do -- we've been doing it on our own for 90 years now..." I liken it to the case of an absentee father coming back into the life of an adult child and telling that child how to make decisions and live its life. Tough thing to do.

Exactly. You took the words right out of my mouth!

[vartahoor]

One of may favorites cliches is. “Այրած սրտի ք*ք մխիթարանք”.

If you are going to use the cliche “Այրած սրտի ք*ք մխիթարանք” then use it correctly which is «Այրւած սրտին ք*ք մխիթար» or in its original versioն «Էրված սրտին ք*ք մխիթար»:
Your use of the incorrect sentence structure clearly shows your lack of Knowledge in EA armenian grammar.
vartahoor

Edited by vartahoor, 03 July 2007 - 11:20 AM.

[Դրօ]

If you are going to use the cliche “Այրած սրտի ք*ք մխիթարանք” then use it correctly which is «Այրւած սրտին ք*ք մխիթար» or in its original versioն «Էրված սրտին ք*ք մխիթար»:
Your use of the incorrect sentence structure clearly shows your lack of Knowledge in EA armenian grammar.
vartahoor

It's Էրուած սրտին ք*ք մխիթար. The orthographical rules state that when a vowel follows the letters Ո and Ւ, a "V" sound would be produced.

So:
Էրուած
érouatz (not 'ts')

Is pronouced like:
ervatz

You can think of it as if it's like the German "W", which is also pronounced as a "V". I'm sure it's not too difficult to remember.

[vartahoor]

It's Էրուած սրտին ք*ք մխիթար. The orthographical rules state that when a vowel follows the letters Ո and Ւ, a "V" sound would be produced.

So:
Էրուած
érouatz (not 'ts')

Is pronouced like:
ervatz

You can think of it as if it's like the German "W", which is also pronounced as a "V". I'm sure it's not too difficult to remember.

I forgot to change the էրուած to էրւած, however in the first instance also the pronunciation is <ervats>. I had previously explained the existence of <ooakanner>, <hyunakanner> and <vevakanner>. Stepan Malkhatsiants the famous lexicographer belonged to <vevakanner>, Iranahays belong to <hyunakanner> and western aremenians belong to <ooakanner>
Սուին Սվին Սւին
Դուին Դւին Դվին
Նուագել նւագել նվագել
«Էրուած սրտին ք*ք մխիթար» «էրւած սրտին ք*ք մխիթար», էրված սրտին ք*ք մխիթար»
«ուած» is pronounced as <vats> and not <uats>.
vartahoor

Edited by vartahoor, 05 July 2007 - 10:24 AM.

[Zartonk]

A you know, orthographically things seem to be in shambles for us, and as a steadily small population, this is nothing we can afford. We have already established here numerous times that the solution is returning to the system intended by Mashtots. It is also a logical extension that any efforts must eventually be legislated and centralized.

Now, what is and what will be the official policy of the RA regarding orthography?

[Arpa]

This subject has been debated numerous times, under a variety of Subject Topics. And when one reads them, one will see that we, including me have all spoken with emotion, prejudice and bias, very little scientific, except maybe those by HagopN.
----
A quote from here, Thank you Zartonk;
----
http://hyeforum.com/...showtopic=24308

Արթուր Արմին (Արթուր Լեւոնի Բաբայան):
---
Բայց հարցն այն է, թե ինչու հենց ցուլի տեղում ցուլ: Պարզվում է, որ ցուլ է, որովհետեւ մ.թ.ա. 5-րդ հազարամյակում մարտի 19-21-ի միջակայքում, երբ գարնանային գիշերահավասարն է եւ բնությունը զարթնում է, արեւը մտնում է ցուլի համաստեղություն: Եվ աստղերը կանգնում են հայկական Տավրոսի (տավար) գլխին: Ամբողջ երկինքը քարտեզավորված է Հայկական լեռնաշխարհի գետերի, լճերի եւ լեռների նմանությամբ եւ տեղադրությամբ: Տավրոսին տվել են Տավրոս-տավար անունը եւն::

My question is. Did Artur spell those words as written above or were they “edited” by the author of the article. See how many inconsistencies and confusions there are. At one point we see ԵՎ, then we see ԵՒ, we see արեՎ then we see արեՒ.
How did Artur conclude that տաՎար is connected to տաՎրոս? If he indeed spells it as “տաՎար”, how did he know that it means “bull/ցուլ”? When was the Armenian Վ equated to the Latin U as in TaUrus, TaUros? Why are we alienating our language from its linguistic IE family and furkifying/persifying/russifying it, like those who don’t have the W sound, and pronounce it as V. The Arabic “WA” to mean "and/ԵՒ" turns to “VE” in those languages. Also see how the Spanish call that animal- “toro/տաԸրո” and the Arabs call it (Johannes, please correct me) “ثور /thaur /թաՒր”.
A quote from the above.

Arpa
I am surprised at your childish statement regarding the use of "funny". You were the one who 8 years ago personally and during a phone conversation told me that it does not matter which orthography will become the acceptaable standard, that you will abide by it. …..

He altogether missed the implication of my sarcastic remark of “FUNNY”. Yes, many of our vernaculars and regional dialects may at times sound funny,and Aramazt knows how we have fun and a laugh, but my use of “funny” was meant to lampoon how some of us think the ԿԸ family is “funny” and others think the ՈՒՄ family is.
My comment was totally taken out of context and it was quoted partially. I did say words of the like and I stand by it. However here is what I had said-“I will abide and submit to a scientifically** linguistic debate and outcome”.
You will also see that those arguments by those so called “docents” and “economists” (read them again and see) had very little to do with orthography but, rather they were speaking from prejudice and bias towards the so called “western” idiom, vernacular and grammar. We attacked and silenced the likes of Shahan because they were doing more damage when they were all but saying that the stanbol furko-dialect was the legitimate heir of Grabar.
**Please, look again. I said “scientifically linguistical”. I did not say political, economic or, above all politico-factional like Yerevanahay V Beirutahay etc.
Which of them is TRULY AUNALDULTERATEDLY PURE ARMENIAN?
Here I go again.
Something that has irked me to no end.
WHAT RIGHT DO THEY at ՀայՊետ Հրատ) have to abeghianize the orthography of the likes of Mashtots,Khorenatsi, Narekatsi, Shnorhali, Tourian, Varouzhan, Siamanto, Abovian, Aghayan, Toumanian, Charents, Bakounts, Isahakian, et al, who, all of them have written in the Mashtotsian orthography.
If I see one more such bastardized orthography of our Immortals, I will scream. Just as I did when I spent hours editing it to its original Metsarents text.
What right do they have re-editing how and what the likes of Varouzhan et al have written??!!Observe the bartadaized version here, and compare with original as written by Misak below.

ԱՆԱՆՈՒՆ

Վայրի՜ ծաղիկ, անունդ ի՞նչ է,
ըսե՛, մասուր ու կանանչե
ցանկապատին շուքին նստած
վայրի՜ ծաղիկ, անունդ ի՞նչ է:

Ըսպիտակ, կաթ ու մազտաքե
բուրող ծաղիկ, անունդ ի՞նչ է.
ըսե՛, քի՛չ մը գեթ չե՞ս դողար,
հովիկն անուշ երբոր փըչե...:

Հըպա՜րտ ծաղիկ, անունն ի՞նչ է
պարիկին, որ անցավ քովեդ,
հեզուկ ու սև սաթի վետվետ
ցայտք մը ձըգած իր քամակեն:

Գիտե՜ս, ծաղի՜կ, անունն ի՞նչ է
դողին՝ զոր քեզ տըվավ հովիկ,
ու ձայնին՝ որ զիս կը կանչե...:

And see how I re-edited it to its original orthography. Simply because I have the original version. Thank you the Kilikian Catholicosate at Antelias. I wish I had the originals as written by Toumanian and Isahakian. All I have is printed in soviet times with soviet "ORTHO??graphy/schmorthography devisd by marx-engels-lenin and stalin. When and where did those idiots learn Armenian?
I have had the anthology by Grigor Zohrab for a long time. I never paid attention, until I finally noticed how this edition by HyePetHrat had sovietized his original orthography. Fotunately, I can still read it and understand even if some of the linguistic nuances have bee obscured. But for how long? I know the difference between the original and the edited version by those buffoons at the Yerevan publishing house.
Let me repeat. How the hell do they have the right to alter the orthography that the likes of Tourian, Metsarents, Varouzan and Zohrab, Abovian, Toumanian, Aghayan, Charents Bakounts and Isahakian have used??

Do we edit the orthography the way the likes of Sevak, Mahari etc have used? I doubt if they in fact used that sovietsky/orthographtski.Yes, yes. By all means, let us forget all this Mashtots Alphabet and adopt the Russky Cyrillisky.
We saw the sovietized version above. Now let us see how Misak had written;

Միսաք Մեծարենց

ԱՆԱՆՈՒՆ

Վայրի՜ ծաղիկ, անունդ ի՞նչ է,
ըսէ՛, մասուր ու կանանչ
ցանկապատին շուքին նստած
վայրի՜ ծաղիկ, անունդ ի՞նչ է։

Ըսպիտակ, կաթ ու մազտաքէ
բուրող ծաղիկ, անունդ ի՞նչ է.
ըսէ՛, քի՛չ մը գէթ չե՞ս դողար,
հովիկն անուշ երբոր փըչէ...։

Հըպա՜րտ ծաղիկ, անունն ի՞նչ է
պարիկին, որ անցաւ քովէդ,
հեզուկ ու սեւ սաթի վէտվէտ
ցայտք մը ձըգած իր քամակէն:

Գիտե՜ս, ծաղի՜կ, անունն ի՞նչ է
դողին՝ զոր քեզ տուաւ հովիկ,
ու ձայնին՝ որ զիս կը կանչէ…

----
IN CONCLUSION, I DON’T GIVE A RAT’S ARSE IF THOSE APARATCHIKS IN YEREVAN TOTALLY TRASH THE MESROPIAN ORTHOGRAPHY AND ALPABET, AND INSTEAD ADOPT TURKSKY, PERSKY AND RUSSKY CYRILLISKY.
No harm done you would say?
How would we know that ՏաՎ րոս spelled with Վ is in fact the analog of TaUrus? How would we know the difference between սԵր and սԷր when in latter the Էturns to Ի as in սիրել, սիրուն but the former Ե does not.
As things go, there are less than 2 million “Armenians” left who know the language and even less those who care.. How long will it take for it to go down to O (zero), to the dustbin of history?
Why don’t we forget the whole thing, trash Mashtots, and do like the azis did 3 times, from Arabic to Cyrillic to Latin. What and where is the azi alphabet?. Let us do likewise, adopt the Cyrillic, maybe in so doing that maniac maniuk abeghovsky, wherever the H he is, will jump with joy and dance around the “fire”.

Edited by Arpa, 09 December 2009 - 04:57 AM.

[Armenak]

Check this documentary out...



@19:00 -- How the hell was Anastas Mikoyan not aware of the language reforms being carried out? He was probably the most powerful and influential Armenian figure in the Soviet Union at the time...

[Arpa]

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WOW!!!
Thank you Armenak for this powerful debate. Seems like I had written it.
Just as I share your enthusiasm, I also share your pain, as our friends would say Tsav@d tanem. Please don’t expect much in response. This subject was discussed at multiple times under a variety of topics, where even then the responses were limited at best and most of the participants have resigned or otherwise disappeared. You will also notice that none of the remaining present members participated in the debate, more notably the majority of the debaters were so called WA diasporans with very little, if any by EA s. I may have my opinions about that phenomenon which will not be discussed here.
We are so obsessed and blinded with the impending anniversary of the Big G of 1915, as we approach the 100^th anniversary of the Big Massacre, very few of us remember that this year 2012 (1922) is the 90^th anniversary of that other Big Massacre and murder of Mesrop Mashtots.
Too bad that I have to write this in English as in the new and that improved sadistic fiasco HTML has made it all but impossible writing in Armenian. As our good Friend Johannes would say- How is it that we are talking about the Armenian Language but speaking in foreign tongues?
Sadly all the participants in these debates have either resigned or eternally forever gone to heaven. You will also notice that the main contributors were either Dasporan or Persian Armenians, who may have had personal traumatic and psychological agendas, with little or none by our EA friends with the exception of very few like SAS.
Please note that most of the arguments in the video dwell on the political, i.e Us V Them and economic aspects of the issue, just as I have brought up on several occasions. And Church V State
See minutes 6:40 and on..
I had to stop at every minute of the debate to further digest what had been said before. As to your quote from Mikoyan , please read the text - Ketse Marti out@ … vor@….??
More point by point will follow. For now I will only comment about that lame excuse that the Children students were confused. We as children were not confused learning traditional orthography. It is not the students but the teachers whose mother language may have been/is Russian who were/are confused.**
====
**Please go back to the topic of Rojik and see in the Armenian version the word SHPOT used to mean the grape syrup/paste. I had never seen it in that context. We know in the Armenian SHPOT means confusion.
Reminds me the times when our mothers would run out of ideas and dump everything, all the leftover vegetables and more in the cooking pot and call it Shasht@m Ash@ , confused stew/soup/apour.
PS. I have to watch the video again to bring up point and point arguments. Once again, sadly many of our remaining correspondents would rather talk about furkish subjects like names of the foodstuff and rabiz v Komitas, as if this HyeForum is a furk-forum.. I don’t blame them as very few know the difference between furkish, Persian, Georgian**, Russian and Armenian Language and culture, when they insist that ghourban and jan are Armenian words.
Dear Armenak, this your post shows that you have mastered the art of poking my ribs. We need to talk in private, please respond to my Dec. 13 PM to you.
**Remember when someone said that Lobi is from the Georgian? Shows that in Armenia Ajarian and Ghapantsian are swear words and that the likes of Ivan-shvili compose the Armenian dictionaries.

[Arpa]

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HETQ has picked up that video of the debate. Dear Armenak, don’t expect much debate, like what I said above, so far as expected, there is no readers’ participation as the common citizen there, just as everywhere else lacks the knowledge and the sophistication about the subject.
Among many;
http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=18194&st=40
We will notice in the video many references beside the personal, to the socio-political aspect of the debate, i.e US v THEM just as we have on many occasions. Not to forget that some argue the technical difficulties, like the lack of qualified teachers. To repeat what I have said before- That the children were confused then as they will today, it is not the childrens’ confusion but the confusion of the teachers whose first language may have/is other than Armenian.
I was surprised to see some people that we know of, the likes of Paruyr Hayrikian and Levon Chukazian (My refurkified spelling) speaking in favor.
We here have often discussed this dilemma and debacle under many topics like Eastern - Western Armenian and more. As if we being so small with less than 3 million of us speaking Armenian we can afford and divide the Nation to East, West, North and South.
What will we talk about when the Armenian Language becomes remanded to the dustbin of history and is listed among the Dead Languages?
Not to worry. We can always speak pig latin, i.e Russky, Arabic, French, Apanish, English and, and …. furkish just like they do in Yerevan Armenian where speak is 30% Russian, 20% furkish,, 20 % Persian with about 30% Mesropian.
Please note the main debate about our linguistic Roots and see what I have said before.
http://hetq.am/eng/news/21949/a-return-to-roots-film-promotes-benefits-of-unified-armenian-orthography.html
And the Armenian;
http://hetq.am/arm/news/21949/a-return-to-roots-film-promotes-benefits-of-unified-armenian-orthography.html

12:28, December 28, 2012
This one hour film Haroutyoun explores the history and implications of changes made to traditional Armenian orthography in the 1920s.
It raises a number of timely issues including how these changes have weakened chances for forging a united Armenian collective and how it had degraded the etymology of the language.
The authors call for a return to traditional spelling, arguing that it is not only feasible but a strategic imperative for national cohesiveness and linguistic development

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