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[SURVEY] Transliteration of Eastern & Western Armenian


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#1 Translit

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Posted 23 April 2008 - 04:04 AM

Dear members of the forum,

I want to ask you for assistance and help. Please test this Armenian Transliteration service and give us your feedback and ideas to improve. Especially interesting is the mapping of Latin<->Armenian letters for Eastern Armenian transliteration table as well as Western. I'm curious whether the letter mapping is convenient for native speakers of both dialects.

Thank you in advance,
Sarah

#2 Arpa

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Posted 23 April 2008 - 08:54 AM

QUOTE (Translit @ Apr 23 2008, 10:04 AM)
Dear members of the forum,

I want to ask you for assistance and help. Please test this Armenian Transliteration service and give us your feedback and ideas to improve. Especially interesting is the mapping of Latin<->Armenian letters for Eastern Armenian transliteration table as well as Western. I'm curious whether the letter mapping is convenient for native speakers of both dialects.

Thank you in advance,
Sarah

The answer is very simple. Juxtapose the Greek Alphabet and the Mesropian and see what you get, except where the Greek does not have equivalents such as Dz-Ծ Ձ Չ etc.
I will refrain from answering in a logical manner until...A question. Why did you include YEV/ԵՒ as if it were a letter.
For the umpteenth time for those idiots in Yerevan, YEV/ԵՒ IS NOT A LETTER, IT IS A WORD!
ՀԱՅԵՐԷՆՈՎ ԳՐԵՄ , ԵՒ ը ՏԱՐ ՉԷ, ԵՒ Ը ԲԱՌ Է.
WHAT IDOTS! WHERE DID THEY LEARN THEIR LANGUAGE!!!
LETTERS AREOMPOSED OF ENTITIES. MORE THAN ONE LETTER MAKES IT A WORD!
A WORD THAT PLACED THERE TO SEPARATE THE ORIGINAL MESROPIAN FROM THE LATER ADDITIONS OF O AND F, եւ/AND, I MEAN AND Օ Ֆ
Any 5 year old kindergarten student knows that the YEV/AND was insertedthere to separate the original Mesropian rom the later additions. YEV means AND, it is a word, not a letter. I can go on AND on ,AND, AND on!
If YEV is aletter then why OU is not?
Who was that professor of Armenian? Lenin or Stalin?
Typical. A always Armenians do it best. As is there are not enough keys on a regular keyboard when we have to commandeer every available key including the numbers pad, the punctuation marks etc. WE HAVE TO HAVE KEY FOR YEV???? DUHHH???
I never use it. How hard it is to type Ե YE and Ւ Hyun? As if that was our only our only problem.

Edited by Arpa, 23 April 2008 - 06:14 PM.


#3 Էլիա

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Posted 23 April 2008 - 05:28 PM

QUOTE (Translit @ Apr 23 2008, 03:04 AM)
Dear members of the forum,

I want to ask you for assistance and help. Please test this Armenian Transliteration service and give us your feedback and ideas to improve. Especially interesting is the mapping of Latin<->Armenian letters for Eastern Armenian transliteration table as well as Western. I'm curious whether the letter mapping is convenient for native speakers of both dialects.

Thank you in advance,
Sarah


Հետաքրքիր կ'երեւի... բայց իմ կարծիքովս, արեւմտահայերէնի բաժինին մէջ, «ե»ը «ye» պէտք է ըլլայ, «է»ն՝ «e», «ը»ն՝ «u», «խ»ն՝ «kh», «ձ»ն՝ «ts», «չ»ն՝ «ch'», «ջ»ն՝ «ch», «ց»ն՝ «ts'», եւ «ու»ն՝ «oo»:

Edited by Էլիա, 23 April 2008 - 05:30 PM.


#4 Harut

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Posted 23 April 2008 - 06:01 PM

QUOTE (Arpa @ Apr 23 2008, 06:54 AM)
The answer is very simple. Juxtapose the Greek Alphabet and the Mesropian and see what you get, except where the Greek does not have equivalents such as Dz-Ծ Ձ Չ etc.
I will refrain from answering in a logical manner until...A question. Why did you include YEV/ԵՒ as if it were a letter.
For the umpteenth time for those idiots in Yerevan, YEV/ԵՒ IS NOT A LETTER, IT IS A WORD!
ՀԱՅԵՐԷՆՈՎ ԳՐԵՄ , ԵՒ ը ՏԱՐ ՉԷ, ԵՒ Ը ԲԱՌ Է.


ճիշտ ես... և-ը տար չէ... և-ը տառ է... tongue.gif

QUOTE
WHAT IDOTS! WHERE DID THEY LEARN THEIR LANGUAGE!!!
LETTERS AREOMPOSED OF ENTITIES. MORE THAN ONE LETTER MAKES IT A WORD!
A WORD THAT PLACED THERE TO SEPARATE THE ORIGINAL MESROPIAN FROM THE LATER ADDITIONS OF O AND F, եւ/AND, I MEAN AND Օ Ֆ
Any 5 year old kindergarten student knows that the YEV/AND was insertedthere to separate the original Mesropian rom the later additions. YEV means AND, it is a word, not a letter. I can go on AND on ,AND, AND on!
If YEV is aletter then why OU is not?
Who was that professor of Armenian? Lenin or Stalin?


but Ե [ye] is a letter, Ո [vo] is a letter...

#5 Ashot

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Posted 23 April 2008 - 07:14 PM

Translit jan, welcome to the Forum, Hope you will enjoy your stay in here!!!

I have noticed some stuff that would need to be changed, I will let you know on friday!!!

#6 AK-47

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Posted 23 April 2008 - 08:28 PM

QUOTE (Էլիա @ Apr 23 2008, 06:28 PM)
Հետաքրքիր կ'երեւի... բայց իմ կարծիքովս, արեւմտահայերէնի բաժինին մէջ, «ե»ը «ye» պէտք է ըլլայ, «է»ն՝ «e», «ը»ն՝ «u», «խ»ն՝ «kh», «ձ»ն՝ «ts», «չ»ն՝ «ch'», «ջ»ն՝ «ch», «ց»ն՝ «ts'», եւ «ու»ն՝ «oo»:

I agree, especially the «ը» that seems to be way off...needs to be changed to an "uh". But nice work nonetheless.

#7 Translit

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Posted 24 April 2008 - 06:47 AM

Thank you everybody veeeery much! I'll consider all feedback and apply it asap.

Ashot, you can send me your ideas as PM or using the contact form on the site. I'll be happy to get it.

#8 Arpa

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Posted 24 April 2008 - 10:20 AM

If I were born some 200 years ago my name could have Jacob Baronian /Յագոբ Բարոնեան (Not Paronyan please, as those idiots in Istanbul did not know the B in Baron equals the Բ in the Mashtots Ayb Ben Gim, not Պ as in Paulos/Boghos/Petros/Bedros.
I may have a simple solution the transliteration dilemma. Remove ՒՎ and ԷԵ from the so called eastern Armenian since they serve no purpose, yet, to be fair, remove Բ Պ Փ , Գ Կ Ք, Դ Տ Թ, Ձ Ծ Ց , Հ Յ , Ջ Չ, Ր Ռ, and here is the punch line, remove Ֆ as Փ was meant to sound like the Greek PH=F.
That way we will have enough keys at the keyboard instead of inventing a keyboard/steghnashar bigger than my living room . goof.gif
Why must I always edit my posts to correct Է Ե, when I instinctively reach for the E key for Ե. Some day I will learn why that idiot chose to place the Ե/Epsilon at Y and Է/Eta at E.
Call me ESTUPIDO!!! goof.gif
Let's make something clear.
Are we talking about HAYEREN or are we talking about istanbola/furka/tajka, russa/ukrainya, parska, arabya, amerikya, not to forget the Zimbabweya/Hayeren ??!!


#9 Translit

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 12:19 PM

QUOTE (Arpa @ Apr 24 2008, 10:20 AM)
If I were born some 200 years ago my name could have Jacob Baronian /Յագոբ Բարոնեան (Not Paronyan please, as those idiots in Istanbul did not know the B in Baron equals the Բ in the Mashtots Ayb Ben Gim, not Պ as in Paulos/Boghos/Petros/Bedros.
I may have a simple solution the transliteration dilemma. Remove ՒՎ and ԷԵ from the so called eastern Armenian since they serve no purpose, yet, to be fair, remove Բ Պ Փ , Գ Կ Ք, Դ Տ Թ, Ձ Ծ Ց , Հ Յ , Ջ Չ, Ր Ռ, and here is the punch line, remove Ֆ as Փ was meant to sound like the Greek PH=F.


Arpa, but if so many letter will be removed there will be a little mismatch, as I know there are 39 letters in the Armenian alphabet.

To all: Are you all agree that the letter mapping provided on this forum is the optimal one? If so, we'll simply go for it and adapt our version accordingly.

How would you also comment on these two versions from armeniapedia and armenians.com?

Thank you everyone for active participation!

#10 Ashot

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 12:52 PM

Sara jan, I don't know about the Armeniapedia, but here is a good news for you to know

HyeForum.com is a portal of Armenians.com, therefore the letter mapping of Forum is exactly the same as the one on Armenians.com

#11 AK-47

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 12:59 PM

For Armeniapedia, it looks good, I liked it.

#12 Translit

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 01:08 PM

QUOTE (Ashot @ Apr 25 2008, 12:52 PM)
Sara jan, I don't know about the Armeniapedia, but here is a good news for you to know

HyeForum.com is a portal of Armenians.com, therefore the letter mapping of Forum is exactly the same as the one on Armenians.com


Oh yes, I see, my bad smile.gif I was thinking of the one from genocide.ru instead of Armenians.com. How logical is their version?

#13 Translit

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 01:12 PM

QUOTE (AK-47 @ Apr 25 2008, 12:59 PM)
For Armeniapedia, it looks good, I liked it.


but which one is better in your opinion? Or maybe you can take something from them to extend the one from this forum?

#14 Arpa

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 02:41 PM

QUOTE (Translit @ Apr 25 2008, 06:19 PM)
Arpa, but if so many letter will be removed there will be a little mismatch, as I know there are 39 letters in the Armenian alphabet.
=====!

I will write this in the UPPER CASE so we can all see clearly.
IF YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF ARMENIAN IS BASED ON 39 LETTERS THEN YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF ARMENIAN IS ONLY SECOND TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF ARMENIAN TO MEHMET LENINOGHLU.
IF YOU STILL INSIST THERE ARE 39 LETTER IN THE AYB BEN GIM THEN YOU HAVE NO DAMN BUSINESS IN THE LANGUAGE DEPARTMNT.
HOW MUCH CLEARER CAN IT BE THAT YEV IS NOT A LETTER, IT IS A WORD!!!
HOW COME NO ONE TOLD ME HOW STUPID ARMENIANS ARE!!!
I can’t believe this! When I first saw where some 16 year old kindergarten teacher told us that YEV is a LETTER, I thought it was joke. It seems it is not a JOKE.
It hurts so much!
As indicated above, I will not seriously participate in this debate and waste my precious breath as long as there are those 3 year olds who tell us that YEV is a LETTER.
In most English speaking countries three year olds are taught the ABC with songs and rhymes like …. ending in w -x-y …..AND ….z. When did “AND” become part of the ABC?
So!
Where in the Latin Alphabet AND is a part of the Alphabet?
Here we are talking about three year olds.
How much older are those who tell us that YEV is LETTER and it is a part of the AYB BEN GIM? Are we playing with our own kaka?
Until and when you realize that there are three times more speakers of the Mesropian Language (7 million) than the meager 2 million or less of speakers of the leninian language who tell us that YEV is a LETTER, you will not get a serious response from me. I have long stopped playing with my kaka.
Do you want to talk about “transliteration”?
Then! Speak ARMENIAN, INDO-EURPEAN not SLAVO-UKRAINO-LENINIAN.

Edited by Arpa, 25 April 2008 - 07:04 PM.


#15 Ashot

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 06:52 PM

Arpa jan / yete ogtagortsumenq miayn MASHTOTSi aybuben@ du liovin chishtes!!! Sakayn - Atcharyani bararanov "YEV" ~ "և" dartsele tar!!! Vori het nayev avelatselen "Օ" yev "Ֆ" tarer@!!!

Menq @ntunumenq ays 3 tarer@ vorpes TAR vochte BAR!!!



#16 Arpa

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 07:26 PM

QUOTE (Ashot @ Apr 26 2008, 12:52 AM)
Arpa jan / yete ogtagortsumenq miayn MASHTOTSi aybuben@ du liovin chishtes!!! Sakayn - Atcharyani bararanov "YEV" ~ "և" dartsele tar!!! Vori het nayev avelatselen "Օ" yev "Ֆ" tarer@!!!

Menq @ntunumenq ays 3 tarer@ vorpes TAR vochte BAR!!!

Menq voch mi kariq ouneying Օ -ի կամ Ֆ-ի եթէ այդ Կիլիկեցի ՖրանգասԷր Յիմարները գիտենային թէ ԱՒ ը =Omega է եւ Փ=PH ը Ֆ է.
Որտեղ Փ տարը գործ ածվում է հնչել իբր Լատիներէն P ? Կամ փարոս ինչպէս pharos?


#17 Ashot

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 07:52 PM

Sakayn karelie hamarel vor ogtagortselu hamar petkakane, qani vor barern irents nshanakutsyunner@ kortsnumen yerp vor tarer@ poxumes... Da im kartsiqne Arpa jan, yes voch Frangaser em vochel Kiliketsi, bayts gitem vor shat barer kan vor aysorva orov ogtagortsumenq vori mech shat anhrazheshte gtnvum nor tarer@ ogtagortsel@ - Orinak - FOOTBALL - ֆուտբոլ bar@... karoghes indz asel te ֆ tari poxaren inch petqe grver?

Edited by Ashot, 25 April 2008 - 07:53 PM.


#18 Harut

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 11:09 AM

translit,

some things are not taken into consideration... please try to write this sentance in latin to convert to armenian...

անդորր՝ իմ դժվարին պահի միակ փրկիչը...



#19 Arpa

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 01:30 PM

QUOTE (Ashot @ Apr 26 2008, 01:52 AM)
Sakayn karelie hamarel vor ogtagortselu hamar petkakane, qani vor barern irents nshanakutsyunner@ kortsnumen yerp vor tarer@ poxumes... Da im kartsiqne Arpa jan, yes voch Frangaser em vochel Kiliketsi, bayts gitem vor shat barer kan vor aysorva orov ogtagortsumenq vori mech shat anhrazheshte gtnvum nor tarer@ ogtagortsel@ - Orinak - FOOTBALL - ֆուտբոլ bar@... karoghes indz asel te ֆ tari poxaren inch petqe grver?

Dear Ashot, you are assuming that every nation and every language has letters for every sound???
Please Ashot, do tell us which Ajarian Dictionary talks about ԵՒ? Not the ones I have! Mine has a whole monograph all about ԵՒ, where, among others it says that it is equal to the Greek “EPI“, I.e, just like in the English it mean “on top of/in addition to“.
Let me repeat. The original idea for Փ/Pyur was for it to sound like the Greek PHI, I.e PH/Փ=F. But since, just like some Indians who cannot pronounce F some Armenians could not either, so in time it ended to sound like P. Why is the Arabic Fil/Elephant is known as ՓԻՂ** in Armenian? Remember that the elephant is not native to Armenia unless you want to believer that the Persians used them to attack the Vardananq goof.gif
I have asked this on numerous occasions. What does the X in Russo-Slavic transliteration stand for asn in XAXOX? Is it Խ or Ղ? Is it or ԽԱՂՈՂ or ՂԱԽՈԽ? What does the Russo-Slavic C stand for, is it Ձ Ց or Ծ? Is not the Latin C equal to Գ as in ABC=ԱԲԳ?
I know for a fact that some speakers of Hindu cannot pronounce F or V, and neither do they have symbols for them. The Arabs don’t have the sound for P or V , B and W are used instead . Persian does not have the sound or the symbol of W , they pronounce it as V. Does the Latin have symbols for Ը Ծ Ց Ձ ՇՉ Ղ Խ etc.? Does the Cyrillic have the sound and symbol for Հ-H ? Is that Hambar becomes Gambar, and Ohannes become Ogannes? And why VAHRAM become BAGRAM and visa versa.
The reason I don’t want to get involved in this debate any deeper is, there seem to be as
there seem to many as many systems as there are Armenians. One separate system for every single one of us??. As far as I am concerned the matter of transliteration is a BIG MESS. Comes to mind the old saying - “Don’t send a boy to do a man’s job”. And then, of course there is this garage about eastern and western Armenian where some say Բ=B and the says it equals P…. and so on. Just as in the past every time we talk about this subject it turns into politics, east v west . It seesm no one can stick to the gist of the subject, like linguistics and resort to politico-divisionistic name calling.
There are many site dealing with the issue of Armeno-whatever transliteration. for every single Armenian.
System of the Library of Congress at Washington DC that most American Armenologists use.
http://www.loc.gov/c...on/armenian.pdf

Here is another
http://www.genocide....it/convert.html

**There was a time when Armenians could not clearly produce the sound of L, the reason why the L from other languages becomes GH/Ղ in Armenian. Furthermore. As long as those morons in Yerevan insist there is no Ւ Hyun and ԷE, just as those other morons in the Diaspora insist that Ayb Ben Gim is AyP Pen Qim, I find debates of the kind tantamount to onanism.

Edited by Arpa, 26 April 2008 - 01:34 PM.


#20 Translit

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 06:05 AM

QUOTE (Arpa @ Apr 25 2008, 03:41 PM)
I will write this in the UPPER CASE so we can all see clearly.
IF YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF ARMENIAN IS BASED ON 39 LETTERS THEN YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF ARMENIAN IS ONLY SECOND TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF ARMENIAN TO MEHMET LENINOGHLU...


Dear Arpa, I see your point regarding the "Yev" word. Are you generally OK with the Latin<->Armenian symbols mapping used on this forum and available from here?

My point to include Yev to the transliteration mapping is very simple - We need to have this symbol (as well as all other Armenian writing symbols including letters and punctuation signs) to let our visitors to reproduce this symbol without a physical Armenian keyboard. This is just it.




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