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#41 Proud EXPAT

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 02:32 PM

QUOTE(Eurocentric @ Jan 24 2007, 08:58 AM) View Post

You missed the point. The word Ararat is as foreign as is the word Urartu. One is Assyrian the other is the Hebrew rendition of the Assyrian found in the Bible.


Ararat is Hebrew? I thought it was RRT and not Ararat.

#42 Eurocentric

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 05:46 PM

QUOTE(Proud EXPAT @ Jan 24 2007, 03:32 PM) View Post

Ararat is Hebrew? I thought it was RRT and not Ararat.


The Assyrian inscription is RRT most often rendered as Urartu (not a linguist so I don't know why). In the Bible it's written as Ararat (Hebrew version).

#43 Hellektor

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 06:45 PM

QUOTE(Error 404 @ Jan 24 2007, 02:37 PM) View Post

Wonder if the female name Bianka which I met in Europe a lot has something common with the Biaina.

Bianca = white (feminin), the word also exists in English in the form of blank.

#44 Arpa

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 07:07 PM

QUOTE(Proud EXPAT @ Jan 24 2007, 08:32 PM) View Post

Ararat is Hebrew? I thought it was RRT and not Ararat.


Dear all. I hope you would forgive me if I move this debate to another thread since this thread was meant to be a sociopolitical, historical commentary somehow turned into linguistics. Here is what I’ll do, I will with permission of Proud take his post over and see what we are talking about
“Ararat is Hebrew? I thought it was RRT and not Ararat.”

Edited by Arpa, 24 January 2007 - 07:30 PM.


#45 Proud EXPAT

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Posted 25 January 2007 - 01:57 AM

QUOTE(Arpa @ Jan 24 2007, 07:07 PM) View Post

Dear all. I hope you would forgive me if I move this debate to another thread since this thread was meant to be a sociopolitical, historical commentary somehow turned into linguistics. Here is what I’ll do, I will with permission of Proud take his post over and see what we are talking about
“Ararat is Hebrew? I thought it was RRT and not Ararat.”


Sure Arpa no problem. I know there are a few other threads that can accomodate these posts.

#46 HyeFedayis

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Posted 25 January 2007 - 05:44 AM

QUOTE(Eurocentric @ Jan 24 2007, 03:10 PM) View Post

I'm sorry but Movsessian's work is not objective or academic while Kurkjian is both even though outn dated.
My left testicle is more Armenian than most people that here.


No one pays attention to Artak movisyan they know he is a horrible researcher, spreading theories.

#47 HyeFedayis

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Posted 25 January 2007 - 05:45 AM

If you guys stated some references it would help stop some confusion.

#48 Eurocentric

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Posted 25 January 2007 - 07:19 AM

QUOTE(HyeFedayis @ Jan 25 2007, 06:45 AM) View Post

If you guys stated some references it would help stop some confusion.


HyeFedayis, մի քիչ քո մասին պատմիր, որտեղի՞ց էս:

#49 Error 404

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Posted 25 January 2007 - 03:23 PM

LOL

he doesn't know shit in armenian. Iran drela hayi tegh bayc mi bar chgiti. Sra vra zhamanak caxselnela apsos. Voch xelq uni voch el mexq. Erevuma erexaya bayc inch azgutyan chem koghmnoroshvum.

Vat mardu ..... che HyeFidayis?

#50 HyeFedayis

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Posted 26 January 2007 - 08:50 AM

QUOTE(Error 404 @ Jan 25 2007, 04:23 PM) View Post

LOL

he doesn't know shit in armenian. Iran drela hayi tegh bayc mi bar chgiti. Sra vra zhamanak caxselnela apsos. Voch xelq uni voch el mexq. Erevuma erexaya bayc inch azgutyan chem koghmnoroshvum.

Vat mardu ..... che HyeFidayis?


Umm i know Armenian so shut up, and you just bring up stupid things i haven't said anything wrong.

#51 ARARAT KID

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Posted 01 February 2007 - 03:30 PM

QUOTE(COSSACK1 @ Dec 27 2003, 12:08 PM) View Post

some nations not all....more so the Turks. in times of Urartians the Turks of Turkey did not exist. they were bunch of tribes living in caves and ground holes somewhere in Asia.

this is Pan-Turkism in action.......laughable. Actually this is good, it only shows their stupidity and ignorance to the rest of the world. soon they will claim to have given the world the first civilization and then we can laugh some more.

one thing they invented for sure is GREASE WRESTLING.......i can't think of anything else.

----> ----> ---->



no its true that turks weren't living at the time of urartians but turks are all descendents of mongols and turkmen from central asia

#52 Hellektor

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Posted 01 February 2007 - 07:19 PM

QUOTE(ARARAT KID @ Feb 1 2007, 04:30 PM) View Post

no its true that turks weren't living at the time of urartians but turks are all descendents of mongols and turkmen from central asia

The Turkish virus originated in a relatively small part of western Mongolia. The oldest references to this plague comes from Chinese annals dating back 3400 years recounting the raids of a certain bloodthirsty Hsiung-Noun from the Tu-Kiu tribe (I don't know any Chinese but they say since there's no "R" sound in that language, the tribe might have been called Turkiu). Back then they were the same barbarians they are today. Don't forget that the Great Wall of China was built to keep them away.

So they invaded westward and by the sixth century they spread like cancer to the west and they exterminated the Turanians, the inhabitants of Central Asia who were Iranian in race but not as developed as the people in Iran proper. The similarity between the words Turk and Turan has helped them fool the world that they are Turanians whereas that's thick baloney.

It's a pity no one thought of building a wall to the west. However, the Darband fortress kept them away as long as the Sassanids were in charge in Iran. This doesn't mean there were no incursions but apart from the invasions of the confederation of the Huns, that was not composed of only Turkic tribes they didn't have much success in imposing their rule and what remained from them was the name Hungary.

Then came the Arabs who destroyed the Sassanid Empire. Later, after the weakening of the Caliphate and the Byzantines the Oghuz Turks descended like pestilence in the 11th century and annihilated what was left of the Persian and Byzantine Empires... Armenia was also crushed under their paws and claws and the rest is bloody history.


IPB Image

Chronology of the spreading of the Human Civilization-deficiency Virus better known by the four-letter word Turk



#53 Zartonk

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Posted 01 February 2007 - 09:32 PM

QUOTE
It's a pity no one thought of building a wall to the west.


If only...

We might need to dabble a bit into alternate history nerdom.

#54 Arpa

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Posted 03 February 2007 - 08:14 PM

The following was posted under Mythology;
There is quite a bit about Urartu/Urashtu.

http://www.angelfire...Azgaser/AR.html

ASTUAS

Astuas(Astvats-arm.) is also one of the most ancient deities of the Armenian people. This name is so old, that even though in later times, due to various circumstances such as the adoption of foreign dieties in Armenia, it ceased to be a proper name, rather than disappearing in oblivian, however, it was preserved in the Armenian language as a common noun, and is the most commonly used name for God in Armenian lexicon.
In the last century a number of scholars, under the influence of the false hypothesis that assumed Europe to be the homeland of the parent Indo-European(Caucasian)language, have tried to connect the Armenians with the Thraco-Phrygians. (In this effort they were swayed by certain cultural similarities that could have existed between the latter and the Armenians living in the neighboring Hyeasa-Tarhigama region in Eastern Asia minor.)

Lead by this "migration" theory and based on interpretations of certain old sources accomodated to it, they have made the Armenian word Astuas derive from the name of the Phrygian deity Savazios.

Not mentioning for the moment a series of evidences that contradict this, the derivation of Astuas, from Savazios becomes immensely difficult even on phonetic grounds:to make the first syllable change from 'sav' to 'astu' is purely arbituary and baseless. We believe that, as mentioned earlier, the divine name Savas(ios), like the Greek Zeus, is linked to the name Sibis(Siwini)-Sabas(In the Ugarit inscriptions we find, as already mentioned, Sapas (or Sabas) instead of the Eblaite or Sibis), whereas the Armenian Astuas, which comes from very remote antiquity, has no relationship at all with Savaz(ios).

The Astuas of the Armenian people was a deity of fire. This divine name (Astu-as) is a Nairian(Armenian) word and it is not unlikely that in the remote past it may have been connected to the Assyro-Babylonian word Isatu which meant 'fire'. Astuas, as the principal national deity of the Armenians (Hayk-Haldi), was the greatest of all gods ans as the father of all was elevated to heaven.

In the Achaemenian period the Armenians adopted Ahura-Mazda,who replaced Astuas in the Armenian pantheon, but by changing the name Ahura to Ara, the name of their national god, they armenianized him and called him Ara-mazd(Aramazd), reserving the name Ormizd to the real Ahuramazda adopted from the Pahlavi forms Hormizd and Ormizd.

During the Hellenistic period, introduced in Armenia by the Artashessian dynasty, Astuas became identified with "Dios-Zeus,the father of gods,the creator of heaven and earth," and when Christianity came, he was identified with Jehovah as the heavenly father and the creator of all things.

It seems natural that in Armenia, after the days of Urartu, when Astuas would cede his place successively to Aramazd, Dios-Zeus, and Jehovah, the name Astuas would cease to be a proper name and would be retained in the language merely as a common noun for God.

The name Astuas (Astu-as), as the name of native deity of fire is connected with the word -astu-(fire) which is commponent of Ur-astu(=Ur-Artu), the name of the country(Urartu/Hurartoon), and Asti-sat, the name of the city that was the greatest religious center of fire(sun)-worshipping Armenia.

This sanem name Astu-as is also encountered in the divine names Unag-astuas and Astupini(Astu-pinu), belonging to Hyeasa and Subarians, respectively. It is clear, therefore, that the attempt to derive the Armenian Astuas from the Phrygian Savazios, as well as the 'migration' hypothesis of the Armens, must be considered as outdated misconceptions.

The component -astu- of the name Astuas (or Astu-as) is a dialectal variant of the component -artu- of the name Ur-artu, with -r>s- transition. It follows, then, that Astuas is just a variant of the name Haldi-Aldi or Ardi(Artu>Astu) and is equivalent and synonymous to it.

The form -artu-(Ur-artu) as a variant of -astu- (Ur-astu)is not an uncommon occurence in Armenian. In some Armenian dialects -s- replaces -r- before dental plosives. For example, in the Hamshen dialect the word -mardik-(people) is pronounced as -masdik-, and -kertan- is pronounced as -geston-; in the Hadjen dialect, -kert'ayi>gasti(both meaning 'to leave'); in the Nakhijevan dialect, -mard>mast- and -morti>mosti(both meaning 'skin'), etc.

Evidently,in the Behistun inscriptions,writing Ur-astu, instead of Ur-artu, was not a scribal error; it existed in the speech of the people. A futher evidence is supplied by the name Tstuni(erstu-ni)which preserves the memory of Urastu(=Urartu). All these confirm that the name Ur-astu contains the divine name Astu(as).

It was already shown above, on different occasions, that the name Ardi ('sun') had a variant in the form of Arti (or Artu)which, with -rt The Armenian language has a number of words formed with -atr-,such as -atrasek-('atr-a-sek'=red as fire) and -atrasikanal-('atr-a-sikanal'=to turn red as fire) that have their parallel forms as -artasek-(art-a-sek) and -atrasikanal-(art-a-sikanal).

To write -art- instead of -atr- is not a scribal error either, since we know that, in reality, the name -Ura-atri- had also a variant in the form of -Ur-arti (or Ur-artu). The -astu-(fire) form of the word -artu- or -atr- should be compared not the Pahlavi -atur-(Avestan atars)but, as already stated, with the Accadian word -isatu-(fire).

In the times of Assyria and Urartu, Armenia was a land of active volcanoes with a number of peaks in the Lake Van region, such as the -Uruatri- mountain (Mt.Djuti), the Nemrut, the Varag and the Tondurak, erupting periodically.

Mount Nemrut's famous crater was active until the 1440s and Tondurak, still smoking, is not completely extinct. The entire are that surrounded it was called by the Assyrian kings -Uruatri-(later Urartu), which literally means 'place of fire'.

The -astu-isatu- connection becomes more intelligible if we keep in mind that the series of names we considered, -Uruatri-Urardi-Urartu and Urastu, are merely different forms of the same name given to Armenia by the Semitic Assyro-Babylonian kings of the south, because for them, that land of active volcanoes was just a 'land of fire'.

This is why the form -Ur-astu- in the Accadian text of the Behistun(arm.means 'home of Behis')inscription was more intelligible than the form -Ur-artu: the actual name of the country in question was derived from the name Ar(Ara) and was called Armani or Armeni, which meant, as was shown earlier, 'sons of Ar' or 'the land of the sons of Ar'; hence, the name -Ur-astu utilized in the Akkadian version of Behistun inscription is the direct translation of the name Armina(Armenia) of the Persian original.

The only difference in the meanings of the names Armeni and Urartu was that while the former designated it as the land of the sons of the local god ('the sons of Ar'), the second meant merely the land of the local god('land of fire')


In the light of what has been said above about the Armenian divine name Astuas, it becomes obvious now that it could not have originated from the Phrygian Savazios, a name (Savaz-ios) which appears rather to be connected to Zeus The name Astuas is already encountered within the name Ur-astu(Ur-artu)and in the divine names Unag-astuas of Hyeasa and Astu-pinu of the Subarians. And since the Semitic world has preserved a synonymous and homophonous word, -isatu-, meaning 'fire', then the source of all these must be looked for in the land of Subartu, whose god Astupinu has already been referred to above.

In conclusion, refering to the divine names Hyek(Hayk=Haldi), Ara (=Ardi) and Astuas (=Astu-as), we can say that Hyek(Hayk), the national deity of the Armenians, having in the beginning powers over animal (hunting)and vegetal(agriculture)domains, has developed a fiery nature and evolved into a sun-god and war-god.

His powers as a god of vegetation and, later, as sun-god, were represented by Ara, whereas his powers on the animal world and on fire were symbolized by Astuas. These two, Ara and Astuas, have been combined in Haldi, who, because of the presense of Siwini, has preserved only his fiery (volcano) and vegetal (poplar tree) natures.

Edited by Arpa, 04 February 2007 - 02:41 AM.


#55 SHENGAVIT

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 01:50 AM

UrarTurk?

yea, right...Los Armenios

#56 hagopn

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Posted 02 July 2007 - 08:04 PM

QUOTE(Arpa @ Dec 13 2003, 02:19 PM)
UrarTurk?
Look what is going on.
First it was the Hittites, I mean HitTurks.
The Turkish word for culture is "kultur", kulTurk?

[b]David O’Byrne’s article
“Istanbul exhibit focuses on lost empire of Urartu” (Nov. 7)

It saddens me deeply that Turkey’s current government refuses, like all the previous ones, to let go of their revisionist history approach. O’Byrne is a serious reporter ­ it should not have been hard for him to cross north to Armenia and obtain a more accurate account of Urartu and its real history. With this article, O’Byrne might as well be on the Turkish government’s payroll.


O'Byrne comes from a long time and "proud" tradition of anti-Armenians by default due to their Russopobic attitudes inherited from especially Palmerston legacy. The Brits we know were ardent Turcophiles, as were their pro-Turkish and pro-Mongol political predecessors, the Venetians in many respects. (Venice, or, rather, the Venetian-Genoese alliance, too aided the Ottomans in their detruction of the Byzantine realm and the occupation of Constantinople was phyiscally accomplished partly by Venetian and Genoese naval and engineering corps. The siege engines were primarily Venetian and Genoese. )

However, to shed further light on the Soviet branch of anti-Armenian mis-interpretations of ancient (and midieval) Armenian history, one need to look at the foundations lain by Stalin in this interesting book.

http://www.rozanehma...PARTIIAzar.html

Diakonov and Pyotrovski were among those who were commissioned to strengthen the fantastic pan-Turkic claims by weakening Armenian claims. Diakonov has been openly attacked in Russia for his pro-Turkic and, by extension, strongly anti-Armenian biases.



#57 Sebastia

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Posted 03 July 2010 - 08:21 PM

I'm not too familiar with these subjects, so I use my logic most of the time.

As far as I know, Urartians did not speak Indo-european, neither did they call themselves Urartians. The word Urartu was never used by them, but the people around them called the region Urartu.

Now, as far as I understand, Urartu is just the Assyrian version of Ararat. One of the regions of Mets Hayq was called Ayrarat, which is around Masis mountain. So I assume Ararat is the hebrew version of Ayrarat. Not to mention that in the Bible it says that Noah's Arc landed on the mountains of Ararat, signifying that Ararat is a region and not a mountain.



If we break down the word Ayrarat, we get Ayr-arat

Ayr - the name of the race that speaks Indo-european.
Arat - I don't know. I remember reading a while ago that it meant land. Another place I read said that it means -given.


As we all know, the name Bagrat is originally Bagarat.

Bag - God
Arat - given?? such that Bagarat - Godgiven? Ayrarat - Ayrgiven?

the word Ayr is used a lot in our language, both in words and in place names, such as Avarayr.



The reason i'm bringing this up is because the world views Urartians as a race that does not speak indo-european. However, the land they live on is called Ayrarat by all their neighbors. This is like having a country called Ireland, and the people living there speak Japanese. Can we assume that the non indo-european speaking people (Argishti, and so on...) were actually intruders? As far as I know, us Armenians use a lot their words, so this whole thing is rather complicated.

Edited by Sebastia, 03 July 2010 - 08:23 PM.


#58 Zartonk

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Posted 03 July 2010 - 11:19 PM

Hello Sebastia,

I will elaborate on the subject later. For the time being, let's just mention that the syllabic cuneiforms can be read as either the vowel ɑ (Ա) or u (ՈՒ), as is the case with the consonants b (Բ) and v (Վ). When Archibald Sayce deciphered the texts, he ARBITRARILY assigned one of the either readings.
Therefore:

URARTU>ARARTA (Note that the middle 'A' was read as A)
ARARATA (Perhaps ԱՐԱՐԱՏ)

EREBUNI>EREVAN

Edited by Zartonk, 30 July 2010 - 11:51 PM.


#59 Arpa

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Posted 04 July 2010 - 08:24 AM

I'm not too familiar with these subjects, so I use my logic most of the time.

As far as I know, Urartians did not speak Indo-european, neither did they call themselves Urartians. The word Urartu was never used by them, but the people around them called the region Urartu.
Now, as far as I understand, Urartu is just the Assyrian version of Ararat. One of the regions of Mets Hayq was called Ayrarat, which is around Masis mountain. So I assume Ararat is the hebrew version of Ayrarat. Not to mention that in the Bible it says that Noah's Arc landed on the mountains of Ararat, signifying that Ararat is a region and not a mountain.
If we break down the word Ayrarat, we get Ayr-arat
Ayr - the name of the race that speaks Indo-european.
Arat - I don't know. I remember reading a while ago that it meant land. Another place I read said that it means -given.
As we all know, the name Bagrat is originally Bagarat.
Bag - God
Arat - given?? such that Bagarat - Godgiven? Ayrarat - Ayrgiven?
the word Ayr is used a lot in our language, both in words and in place names, such as Avarayr.
The reason i'm bringing this up is because the world views Urartians as a race that does not speak indo-european. However, the land they live on is called Ayrarat by all their neighbors. This is like having a country called Ireland, and the people living there speak Japanese. Can we assume that the non indo-european speaking people (Argishti, and so on...) were actually intruders? As far as I know, us Armenians use a lot their words, so this whole thing is rather complicated.

Congratulations. The fact that you spell your screen name with the B=Բ not P=Պ as an average diasporan would speaks well of you. You seem to be well versed in the subject, or in the least interested as a few of us, you may find the following thread interesting , and add your your wisdom.
http://hyeforum.com/...showtopic=14306
Ps. It is time that WE Armenians deepen in these matters rather than mouth what disinterested third parties like Germans, French, Latins and Russians have said. Aramazt mi arastse! those other cursed armenophobe neighbors of ours.
Yes. If one reads the biblical mention of Ararat, one will see that it says "On the mountainS (plural) of Ararat".

Gen.8
[4] And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat.
4Եօթներորդ ամսի քսանեօթին տապանը նստեց Արարատ լերան** վրայ։ (Singular)
----
(**My hard copy of the Bible in Armenian says-Արարատ լեռներուն վրայ .(Plural)
I did not know this. Another mention of (kingdom of)Ararat)
-----
Jer.51
[27] Set ye up a standard in the land, blow the trumpet among the nations, prepare the nations against her, call together against her the kingdoms of Ararat, Minni, and Ashchenaz; appoint a captain against her; cause the horses to come up as the rough caterpillers.
28Դրօ՛շ բարձրացրէք երկրի վրայ, փո՛ղ փչեցէք բոլոր ազգերի մէջ, զօրագնդե՛ր կանչեցէք նրա դէմ։ Իմ կողﬕց հրամա՛ն տուէք Այրարատեան*** թագաւորութիւններին և ասքանազեան գնդին, նրա շուրջը նետաձիգ սարքե՛ր կանգնեցրէք

***The paper copy spells it as ԱրարաԴ, while the other above spells it as ԱրարաՏ. No wonder we are such a confused lot!!

Edited by Arpa, 04 July 2010 - 08:53 AM.


#60 Arpa

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Posted 04 January 2011 - 10:09 AM

:o :huh:
Slowly but surely it will soon be declared that king Argishti was their ancestor. Ironically, their latter day god/founder was not born in the Land of Ararat, he was born thousands of miles to west in Macedonia, just as osman was born thousands of miles to the east.
Correction. It is fabled that osman had been born in the environs of Constantinople, once again thousands of miles away from Ararat/Ararta.


http://news.am/eng/news/43703.html

Posted Image


Turkish journalists visited the tomb of king of Urartu

January 04, 2011 | 09:32
Reporters from Turkish news agency Anadolu visited the famous cave fortress Horhor in Van, known as the tomb of the kings of Urartu.

Professor of archeology of Van University Rafet Cavusoglu who escorted the journalists, stated that Argishti 1, king of Urartu was buried in the cave.

Note that the carved inscription on the fortress of Van, provides important information about the time period of the reign of Argishti 1.
--------
Թուրք լրագրողներն այցելել են ուրարտական թագավորների հայտնի դամբարանը

Հունվար 04, 2011 | 09:32
Թուրքական Anadolu լրատվական գործակալության թղթակիցներն այցելել են Վանա բերդի հայտնի Խորխոր քարանձավ, որը հայտնի է ինչպես ուրարտական թագավորների դամբարան։
Թուրք լրագրողներին ուղեկցել է Վանի հարյուրամյա համալսարանի հնագիտության բաժնի դասախոս Ռաֆեթ Չավուշօղլուն, ով հյուրերին տեղեկացրել է, որ այդ դամբարանում է ամփոփվել Ուրարտուի թագավոր Արգիշտի 1-ինը։
Նշենք, որ Վանա բերդի ժայռին փորագրված Խորխորյան տարեգրությունը կարեւոր տեղեկություններ է տալիս Արգիշտի 1-ինի գահակալության ժամանակաշրջանի վերաբերյալ:


Edited by Arpa, 04 January 2011 - 11:12 AM.





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