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#41 bellthecat

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Posted 14 June 2001 - 10:33 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Thorny Rose:

It is a proven fact that as a people we have no auto-control/auto-check and hence we need the "shepherds"



Baaa.. I think the "sheep" should have by now started to realise they would get on much better without their "shepherds" - look where they led them to in 1914, or in the late 1970s and early 80s, for example! Or is it that the sheep know they can avoid all the difficult things that go into being a democracy if they keep the shepherds?

steve

#42 bellthecat

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Posted 14 June 2001 - 11:42 PM

quote:
Originally posted by aurguplu:


of course the worst thing at the moment is the quarry. i dont want to sound like a conspiracy theoretician, but what on earth would armenia operate a quarry for just a mile from ani other than to see it destroyed and pile the blame on the turks? (and what a waste if this is the case: turks are already doing quite a bit of that themselves, aren't they?)

i recall vaguely having heard of some trouble bilkent got into with some map, but don't really know the details. i am sorry to say this but i cannot feel sorry for them: bilkent was founded by dogramaci, who was also the head of yök, that academic police force (i couldn't get my oxford degree recognised by them for a bloody two years, and also taught at the university of istanbul for one year and had to wrap up my academic plans for the future). serves them right.

but of course, the fact that you get into trouble just because of a map is a tragedy.

regards,



You are looking for too complex reasons for the quarry! The people who created it are idiots - and idiots don't need reasons

Actually it is Turkey that will use the quarry to its own advantage - as all damage to Ani caused by 80 years of neglect can now be blamed on the quarry and Armenia.

As for the Bilkent maps - I also do not know the whole story, but I think they were maps of the roman empire, were printed in Germany, and had Armenia marked on them. Turkish security police confiscated them at customs. An "expert" from the Turkish Historical Institute was brought in to "resolve" the situation - he suggested covering the offending word with Tippex (no kidding!). I do not know how it was finally resolved, or if it was.

Steve

#43 Paul bunyan

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Posted 14 June 2001 - 12:07 PM

Thorny Rose, the Armenians will do a better job than those incompetant archeology~quacks,who are hacking it up to get tourist bucks Ani is an important historical remnant of Armenia as its only a couple of miles from Armenia and in view of all property the turkish government stole from the Armenian people during the genocide thats the least they can do!

#44 Paul bunyan

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Posted 14 June 2001 - 12:30 PM

anybody remember the story of the "Elgin Marbles"in turkish occupied Greece where the turks were feeding priceless centuries old artistic sculptures into the lime kilns.
Ambassador Elgin was just in the nick of time able to save them for all time.

#45 raja

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Posted 14 June 2001 - 08:19 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Thorny Rose:


Sure does!
I don't want to sound like I am performing a "knee-jerk," but I think YÖK is needed, given the way we would rather keep out people who go to don't-know-what "university" in Egypt... Or would we rather not? It is a proven fact that as a people we have no auto-control/auto-check and hence we need the "shepherds"... But this incident you've gone through is plain ridiculous. Incidents such as these work against us, whether it is individuals or the country as a whole.
You see, it is because of fear of such, among a huge list of others, that I chose not to attend a university abroad. My father told me that I might have to risk settling abroad permanently, as he is aware of such himself... Yep.
I also had an art teacher here in high school whose husband had a friend who was the son of a former diplomat. The guy knows 11 languages (two more than the present pope) and has studied philology here so he wouldn't risk anything, but guess what he does for a living: he sells shirts.
Anyway, that was off topic.


We have some parallels here. Because of my fears of leaving my country I also turned down numerous acceptances from abroad(mainly US,since my highschool was Robert)and decided on BU.Look where I have ended up anyway!
BTW I speak only 5 languages and I'm managing a gasstation. (I used to sell antiques when I was in Turkey)

#46 aurguplu

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Posted 15 June 2001 - 11:18 AM

paul bunyan

do you really know how lord elgin "saved these priceless antiques in the nick of time"?

he hacked them off the walls of the parthenon, where they had stayed for centuries and were in no danger of being destroyed by the turks.

it is true that turks fed some (quite a few, admittedly) marbles into lime quarries, but so did everybody, and not just in the medieval and modern times: byzantine greeks "recycled" most pagan greek heritage they could lay hands on, as a result today you see classical greek columns and other bits peeking out of byzantine church walls etc.

the romans also stole and recycled many such things.

and so did the crusaders who had invaded constantinople in 1260 (date may not be accurate): do you know the story of the four horses at the cathedral of san marco, venice? check somebody out on that.

regards,

#47 aurguplu

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Posted 15 June 2001 - 11:26 AM

raffi,

why do so many people with such skills end up selling shirts, stocks, gas, and what not?

i see similar things happen not only in turkey but all over the better off world.

is there something wrong with us, language geeks?

had to get this off my chest. thanx for listening.

regards,

#48 THOTH

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Posted 15 June 2001 - 08:03 AM

So true - and quite a sore spot for the Greeks these days (justifyably). The Four Horses of San Marco originally graced the Hippodrome in Constantinople did they not? And they were taken by the Venitians and placed upon their palace (I had thought?). You are right however - these recyclings of art/architecture have occured throughout history by nearly all conquoering gruops. I can recall that while in the Yucatan there were Spanish buildings where you could see bits of Mayan releifs (and of course all of the goldwork the Spanish melted down...) - just as you discribe with the Byzantine (Christianity has been most guilty of such has it not? And now Taliban carrys on the tradition in a sense...) And previously, as the political winds/alegiences shifted, the Mayan themselves would bury/build upon temples of their own disgraced gods with their new ones - etc.

Do you think that the Turks will ever press the Germans for the Pergammon artifacts? (The museum that houses such is a crown jewel of Berlin). I was quite taken with Pergammon and was very saddened to see only a big Oak tree where the temple of Zeus once stood - such a glorious sight that must have been in its day...


quote:
Originally posted by aurguplu:
paul bunyan

do you really know how lord elgin "saved these priceless antiques in the nick of time"?

he hacked them off the walls of the parthenon, where they had stayed for centuries and were in no danger of being destroyed by the turks.

it is true that turks fed some (quite a few, admittedly) marbles into lime quarries, but so did everybody, and not just in the medieval and modern times: byzantine greeks "recycled" most pagan greek heritage they could lay hands on, as a result today you see classical greek columns and other bits peeking out of byzantine church walls etc.

the romans also stole and recycled many such things.

and so did the crusaders who had invaded constantinople in 1260 (date may not be accurate): do you know the story of the four horses at the cathedral of san marco, venice? check somebody out on that.

regards,



#49 aurguplu

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Posted 15 June 2001 - 08:31 AM

dear thoth,

the turks are pressing the germans, but so far without success as far as i know.

sometime in the last century some sultan said "if some infidel (=european) wants to carry off carved stones from old buildings of the past pagans, do not disturb them". and so the infidels did. in other instances, they gave bits of anatolian heritage as "presents" to the germans and others.

toward the end of the empire some ottomans, notably osman hamdi bey, woke up to the facts and defended the monuments, sometimes putting their own lives in danger. if it weren't for them, we would have had nothing left in turkey.

the roman theatre in aspendos is still intact today (so intact that you can still use it today) thanks to the intervention of the seljuks, (and later ottomans) who decided to keep it the way it was. since it wasn't a christian monument it was under no protection of any treaty with byzantium or the greek or armenian churches, so its survival is all the more remarkable (given the fact that it would have been a wonderful quarry of ready-cut stone!)

regards,

#50 Paul bunyan

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Posted 15 June 2001 - 09:20 AM

Elgin Marbles, the greeks deny any vandalism, the archaological~artist hero Lord Elgin and matyr deserves alot of thanks for saving the sculptures for the turk vandals who would have destoyed every bit of greek sculpture and artifacts, like they did in Armenia, and are slowly doing in Ani, if they had not been thrown out of Greece. I am only glad that Howard Carter discovered the great mummy of Tutankumun, after turkey left Eygpt
or this priceless world historic treasure would have gone the way of all the mummies in turkish times straight into locomotive boilers.

#51 THOTH

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Posted 15 June 2001 - 09:46 AM

Ali - I have been to Aespendos - it was truly a marvel. The accoustics were still wonderful! And it is amazingly perserved - the best of its kind I think.

In general I was amazed when visiting the various sites (of antiquity) in Turkey (Ephesos, Miletius, Pirius?Pirene? (don't remember), a nice site (near) Aespendos (don't remember the name - but the were extensive) and others - that the level of supervision/policing etc seemed non-existant (all except for Troy perhaps). And everywhere I went children were attempting to sell me Roman coins and the like...and certain adults sometimes hinted at more. I was not inclined to take them up on these types of offers - regardless of authenticity and regardless of the (now) strict Turkish laws against the export of such.....

#52 aurguplu

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Posted 15 June 2001 - 09:59 AM

paul bunyan

this is my last post in reply to your remarks.

if the turks were such vandals, how come there is still so much stuff left of the civilisations that preceded them in all the countries that they had conquered & then left, and also in anatolia, where they still are? was half a millennium not enough? or didn't they appreciate enough the pre-cut stones that were ready to erect muslim structures instead of the christian and pagan ones? or did they lack islamic zeal to destroy them all (unlike the taliban of today).

paul i do not know if you are an armenian or not (not everyone is one in this forum is understand). i do understand - and share - people's revulsion of the armenian genocide and their condemnation of the denialist position that the turkish state still holds. i also know about the other darker pages of my nation's history.

i also know what the germans did to the jews, for instance. but that does not stop me from reading goethe or listening to mozart. the list can go on as we all know.

we ruled in the middle east and eastern europe for almost a millennium, and no language, no religion, no culture ever disappeared completely. not even the armenian one, though it tragically came so close to it (and i do sincerely believe that would not happen if the c.u.p leaders were not all-german educated or german-inspired).

if the greeks still have monuments to show for their past glory, it is because, we, their conquerors, allowed them to exist for centuries without defacing them, even though we had to do so by the laws of islam which abhors painted and graven images, especially of god. in fact, if the greeks still exist as such, calling themselves greeks, speaking greek, and practising orthodox christianity, it is because we allowed them to do it, even when we had the physical power to change it. this is more than one can say about the american indians or the australian aborigines, isn't it?

every nation deserves condemnation for its acts of atrocity, just as it deserves recognition for its contributions to humanity. and we are no exception.

regards,

#53 bellthecat

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Posted 15 June 2001 - 10:21 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Paul bunyan:
anybody remember the story of the "Elgin Marbles"in turkish occupied Greece where the turks were feeding priceless centuries old artistic sculptures into the lime kilns.
Ambassador Elgin was just in the nick of time able to save them for all time.



As Ali Suat said, they were taken directly from the Parthenon. Whether they would have ever ended up in lime kilns is arguable - given the great difficulty Lord Elgin had in removing them from the building. What is not arguable is that the locals, Greeks or Turks, cared little for them - and in bringing them to london they contributed a great deal to the birth of neo-classicisim.

The famous "Venus de Milo" statue, now in the Louvre, WAS rescued at the point of being put into a lime kiln. Her arms had already gone into the fire.

Steve

#54 bellthecat

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Posted 15 June 2001 - 10:32 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Paul bunyan:
Thorny Rose, the Armenians will do a better job than those incompetant archeology~quacks,who are hacking it up to get tourist bucks



If that was really true - then how do you explain the existence of the quarry (I should say quarries - as there are now four of them).

No border is fixed for ever - but generally it takes a lot of blood to be shed to change a border (is it a coincidence that borders are usually coloured red on maps?). In an ideal world Turkey might get a fit of guilt over its past, and give Ani back to Armenia - but don't hold your breath waiting for it to happen.

Steve

#55 ThornyRose

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Posted 15 June 2001 - 10:40 AM

quote:
Originally posted by bellthecat:


Baaa.. I think the "sheep" should have by now started to realise they would get on much better without their "shepherds" - look where they led them to in 1914, or in the late 1970s and early 80s, for example! Or is it that the sheep know they can avoid all the difficult things that go into being a democracy if they keep the shepherds?

steve



That is the point. They haven't realized anything. Well, most haven't, in fact.
My point here about the need for a "police force," namely YÖK, the council of higher education, was that you have "religious" (head-scarved) women who graduate as nurses but will not use alcohol when cleaning your arm before an injection because they were taught this during their education (and they were inclined to, anyway). The public will not go after this. This is what I mean by lack of auto-control. Therefore, you need YÖK to "remind" these people of their obligations.
Another example: as a citizen of Ankara, I have not heard one single word about this one fountain built in between two wheat fields. I was the only one to e-mail Hürriyet Ankara about it and my writing mentioning this waste and shame was the only one in the "complaints" list.
If these who do not say, "Enough is enough, what about our roads and our water being chlorinated once every two weeks??" are not sheep, what are they? You need not follow the shepherd. Not objecting to anything, let alone not finding anything to object to, is just as bad.
It is not about being led to do something bad, as in 1915 or when-not.
Dissolve YÖK, then, for the sake of democracy. And what happens? I would hate to have an infection in my arm because a lame-brain administered rose-water rather than alcohol, simplest example.
However, as Ali says, times and Turks are changing. We all wish there was no need for such, as they do hamper the natural flow of things. One of my cousins back from the U.S. is also having problems because YÖK works slowly and is just another barrier.
Again, though... I wouldn't want an infection. (<-- It stands for more than sees the eye.)


quote:
Originally posted by bellthecat:


You are looking for too complex reasons for the quarry! The people who created it are idiots - and idiots don't need reasons

Actually it is Turkey that will use the quarry to its own advantage - as all damage to Ani caused by 80 years of neglect can now be blamed on the quarry and Armenia.

As for the Bilkent maps - I also do not know the whole story, but I think they were maps of the roman empire, were printed in Germany, and had Armenia marked on them. Turkish security police confiscated them at customs. An "expert" from the Turkish Historical Institute was brought in to "resolve" the situation - he suggested covering the offending word with Tippex (no kidding!). I do not know how it was finally resolved, or if it was.

Steve



Actually, I saw something about Ani in today's Posta... (Dumb newspaper my aunt wants because it gives the greatest number of puzzles so far. :roll eyes Says that there were pilgrims in there (Armen's group, perhaps??) while they were blasting on the other side... They all came out running or something... I don't know if Posta has an on-line version... (Highly doubt.)
Perhaps there will be some indignation resonating, eh?
You are right, though... I think that in the end it will be blamed on the quarry if the structures collapse - and rightfully so. Neglect is one thing. This quarry business is another. And I think the latter is more criminal than the former. Of all the... Who in their right minds...? <speechless>

#56 ThornyRose

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Posted 15 June 2001 - 10:52 AM

quote:
Originally posted by aurguplu:
paul bunyan

this is my last post in reply to your remarks.

if the turks were such vandals, how come there is still so much stuff left of the civilisations that preceded them in all the countries that they had conquered & then left, and also in anatolia, where they still are? was half a millennium not enough? or didn't they appreciate enough the pre-cut stones that were ready to erect muslim structures instead of the christian and pagan ones? or did they lack islamic zeal to destroy them all (unlike the taliban of today).

paul i do not know if you are an armenian or not (not everyone is one in this forum is understand). i do understand - and share - people's revulsion of the armenian genocide and their condemnation of the denialist position that the turkish state still holds. i also know about the other darker pages of my nation's history.

i also know what the germans did to the jews, for instance. but that does not stop me from reading goethe or listening to mozart. the list can go on as we all know.

we ruled in the middle east and eastern europe for almost a millennium, and no language, no religion, no culture ever disappeared completely. not even the armenian one, though it tragically came so close to it (and i do sincerely believe that would not happen if the c.u.p leaders were not all-german educated or german-inspired).

if the greeks still have monuments to show for their past glory, it is because, we, their conquerors, allowed them to exist for centuries without defacing them, even though we had to do so by the laws of islam which abhors painted and graven images, especially of god. in fact, if the greeks still exist as such, calling themselves greeks, speaking greek, and practising orthodox christianity, it is because we allowed them to do it, even when we had the physical power to change it. this is more than one can say about the american indians or the australian aborigines, isn't it?

every nation deserves condemnation for its acts of atrocity, just as it deserves recognition for its contributions to humanity. and we are no exception.

regards,



Good, indeed.
However, there was this mention of "secret schools" by some Greeks out there... Little kids, yes, but I do wonder... These were supposedly there to teach children their mother language, Greek, in hiding... No sources, no where and when, nothing... I haven't heard of such and, judging by the things you say, neither must have you. Or have you? Etc... I am inclined to thinking it is just rubbish, but what if...?

#57 MJ

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Posted 15 June 2001 - 11:04 PM

I have a proposal about the quarries.

If we can find a formal reference - in Turkish newspapers or elsewhere (better UNESCO materials), I propose based on that evidence writing an open letter on behalf of the Hye Forum to the President of Armenia, copy it to the Minister of Culture of Armenia, and send it to the Ambassador of Armenia in the USA (it's easier to do for us).

What do you think?

#58 Paul bunyan

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Posted 15 June 2001 - 03:44 PM

Auguplu, "if the turks were such vandals, how come theres so much stuff left, " you mean like at Ani, a couple of miles from Armenia the greatest city of the Armenians, even greater than the city of Tigranocerta with its public parks, greek theatre, and temples, the city of a thousand churches, of that rich merchant city, that kingdom capitol, the palaces, the houses of its people, the bustling marketplaces, the schools, libraries, all the things necessary for a great city, today, nothing much remains.

#59 Paul bunyan

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Posted 15 June 2001 - 03:52 PM

MJ, about the quarries, sounds like a good idea to me, anyone else?

#60 raja

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Posted 15 June 2001 - 07:44 PM

quote:
Originally posted by aurguplu:
raffi,

why do so many people with such skills end up selling shirts, stocks, gas, and what not?

i see similar things happen not only in turkey but all over the better off world.

is there something wrong with us, language geeks?

had to get this off my chest. thanx for listening.

regards,


We humans by nature are in a constant pursuit of happiness.Whereas some of us are more ambitious many of us seek happiness in the simplest form of life.Not only in our choice of profession but also the way we choose to lead our life in every aspect.We might be accused of not using our knowledge and skills in a more efficient way but the question remains for whose benefit and at what cost? This may sound a bit too selfish but I don't see anything wrong with that.My knowledge and skills belong to me and I decide how to use them.After all,were the ambitions of my teenage which caused me acquire those skills mine or were they imposed on me by my family and such?I still don't know the answer.Maybe I have changed a lot since that period,but I am satisfied with who I am right now.
Remember similar issues are raised for women who after years of studying prefer to be a housewife only.




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