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Thoughts about morality and religion


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#21 Nakharar

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 08:46 AM

I don't want to sound disrespectful to those who have laid down their lives, but I don't want anyone to die for me. Not even when I'm drowning and especially for that person who is going to save me by sacrificing his own life just for my sake. That's too much for anyone to bear. I wouldn't be able to live with myself after that. I'll rather drown.

#22 Sasun

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 08:56 AM

QUOTE (Nakharar @ Aug 23 2004, 10:46 AM)
I don't want to sound disrespectful to those who have laid down their lives, but I don't want anyone to die for me. Not even when I'm drowning and especially for that person who is going to save me by sacrificing his own life just for my sake. That's too much for anyone to bear. I wouldn't be able to live with myself after that. I'll rather drown.

But the point is whoever has died for you has already died, so all you can do now is appreciate or not.

#23 Sasun

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 08:58 AM

QUOTE (THOTH @ Aug 23 2004, 10:40 AM)
I find this Christian concept that all men (and women particualrly) - are bad, evil, dirty, unclean and such to be disgusting and most sad - and to be essentially completly wrong. What a horrible idea - that all people are so horrible and only through the "grace of God" can they be saved...etc etc... yucky.gif

There is no such Christian concept...

#24 THOTH

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 09:37 AM

QUOTE (Sasun @ Aug 23 2004, 09:58 AM)
There is no such Christian concept...

Hm - well onnig (and most/many other Christians seem to think so) - for example - this post of his from the thread that this broke off from...(my bold)

Hi Sasun,

My claims are only truth not by my own concoction but by what is stated in God's Word. Not only is it stated in God's word but these things are evident in the world. Look at other religions, they either deny sin or they think they can repay sin with good works. The Word of God is clear about how sins can be paid for, in Romans 6:23:

"For the wages of sin is death,"

not good works. If one sins, one must die, not just physically but spiritually and since the soul is eternal, spiritual death is equated with everlasting punishment in hell, and that is literal.

In actuallity, if one is trying to pay for sin with good works he is yet sinning again. See what the prophet Isaiah says, Is 64:6

"For all of us have become like one who is unclean,
And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;"


Righteous deeds are works. And also, Paul says in Rom 3:20:

"because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin."

and in Rom 11:6:

"But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."

and in Galatians 2:16:

"nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified."

and so on and so forth. There are many passages but I think I've posted enough for now.

#25 THOTH

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 09:58 AM

and a must read (IMO) -

http://christianmora.../evilnature.htm

lol (good too...by the same woman as in the interview above..)

http://www.christian.....0the Body.htm

more from the same site as 1:

http://christianmora...umanrights.html

"Today in America, millions of people are being abused, harassed and threatened by believers of Christianity with perverse curses that they will be eternally damned and tormented in a lake of fire, because of their life-style choices. The Cult of Christianity has a twisted version of so-called, morals and ethics, that evolved from an ancient religious sect, which proclaims everyone to be innately evil sinners and should bow down and do only the will of their vengeful, jealous, (imaginary) God, and, that everyone should accept the belief in redemptive morals through the immorally disgusting ritual of a blood sacrifice (Jesus)."

"While preaching the supposed message of love and forgiveness, Christians shame the whole world by telling everyone they are full of sin and wickedness, but they, themselves, practice the awful hypocrisy of contentious rivalry, shamefully arguing amongst each other for the elitist position with God, and the fruit they produce is discord and division, and only serves to help fragment society."

above quotes by G. James Stewart - Imorality of Christianity

Edited by THOTH, 23 August 2004 - 10:02 AM.


#26 Sasun

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 10:02 AM

QUOTE (THOTH @ Aug 23 2004, 11:37 AM)
Hm - well onnig (and most/many other Christians seem to think so) - for example - this post of his from the thread that this broke off from...(my bold)

I don't think so, Jesus didn't say what you are saying.

So again you started spamming the same usual way posting from other websites. Well I don't intend to keep too many off-topic posts.

#27 THOTH

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 10:27 AM

And yet more...

http://christianmora...revolution.html

hm..

Romans 13
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no
power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance
of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.


http://www.anatheist...radictions.html

(for the above the last two pieces - "the problem of evil" and the "Problem of unbelief" are relevant to the discussion IMO)...the whole argument about God being contradictory is a nice read as well - IMO...

and from the same source as the above - (Bible & Morality) (and this concept of inherited guilt and such - fits in with my earlier claims about Christianity and man being considered eveil - etc)

http://www.anatheist...lity_bible.html

#28 Sasun

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 10:28 AM

For Anoushik and other disbelievers of human unselfishness, I suggest you read the article "Doing well and doing good, Why a new golden age of philanthropy may be dawning" in the Jul 29th, 2004 issue of the economist (maybe I will post the article later on). This article is using research based on real data on philantropy. As a matter of fact, research shows that people who adhere a religion donate more than others. This is a fact wink.gif

Edited by Sasun, 23 August 2004 - 10:29 AM.


#29 THOTH

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 10:29 AM

QUOTE (Sasun @ Aug 23 2004, 11:02 AM)
I don't think so, Jesus didn't say what you are saying.

So again you started spamming the same usual way posting from other websites. Well I don't intend to keep too many off-topic posts.

Everything I am posting is entirely on topic. If you start deleating its very telling and confirms that you are censoring ideas different from what you believe - shame on you!

#30 THOTH

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 10:30 AM

QUOTE (Sasun @ Aug 23 2004, 11:28 AM)
As a matter of fact, research shows that people who adhere a religion donate more than others. This is a fact wink.gif

Will that get them into heaven you think?

#31 Sasun

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 10:32 AM

QUOTE (THOTH @ Aug 23 2004, 12:29 PM)
Everything I am posting is entirely on topic. If you start deleating its very telling and confirms that you are censoring ideas different from what you believe - shame on you!

I am not going to waste my time arguing with you, just keep in mind spamming and posting off topic are against the forum rules.

#32 Sasun

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 10:37 AM

QUOTE (THOTH @ Aug 23 2004, 12:29 PM)
Everything I am posting is entirely on topic. If you start deleating its very telling and confirms that you are censoring ideas different from what you believe - shame on you!

Oh you are just using the topic as an excuse to attack Christians... and you are telling me shame on you, why shame on me? I haven't yet deleted your posts and you started crying already??? rolleyes.gif Why should you be allowed to be above the rules? It is only allowed for those whose blood is blue, so if you are one of them you should present a certificate cool.gif

#33 Armen

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 10:40 AM

Most americans and especially europeans think there is no morality in self-sacrifice just because U.S. and Europe didn't have real wars on their soil for a half of century. Because of the relative technological advantage these countries have, soldier's life is considered to be a paid job. He/she is paid to die.
This technological advantage makes it possible to conscipt the dumbest, uneducated mass to the army. Does it take much of a skill to push a certain botton at a given time? smile.gif
The turth is that EU and especially U.S. are on the immoral side: the bad guys. U.S. has conquered another country for its oil interests. Well, how can you convince a U.S. citizen that an american soldier is moral and is dieing for his/her security? You can't.
If for example Russia again becomes an Evil Empire with the same military technological level of "pushing buttons war" and attacks Europe, some of our european forumers will immediately start valueing the idea of a soldier again.
Woman will start marring soldiers again and the level of gays and other perverts in Europe will drastically fall. There will be no time for that smile.gif
You may ask, "hey, you love wars more than gays?". Valid question. However, it is the U.S. and EU that now push the world towards war because of their oil interests not the arabs, terrorists or anyone else.

#34 THOTH

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 10:42 AM

Title of thread - "Thoughts about religion and morality"

I recommend the following reads:

http://www.anatheist...y_absolute.html

(exerpts from the code of Hammurabi are interesting - don't you think?)...and some other things to consider - God violating several of the 10 commandments...and for all the Christian guys out there - isomethign to consider -f you lust after another women you have already commited adultry (Matt. 5:27-28) - lol

http://www.anatheist...ristianity.html

(above makes good point that bible & Christianity alone insufficient for all ethical questions)

..and of course from the morality_bible post (previous) - the discussion of the moral justifications for slavery from the bible....yeah...and some speak of relativism...

#35 Armen

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 10:43 AM

Sasun jan, how can you convince a Jew that there is something good about Christianity.

#36 THOTH

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 10:55 AM

QUOTE (ArmenSarg @ Aug 23 2004, 11:40 AM)
Most americans and especially europeans think there is no morality in self-sacrifice just because U.S. and Europe didn't have real wars on their soil for a half of century.

Is this conclusion based on a poll/survey result or are you just speculating (this supposed cause & effect)?

QUOTE
Because of the relative technological advantage these countries have, soldier's life is considered to be a paid job. He/she is paid to die.


No - they are paid to kill others and prevent them from doing us harm...in theory

QUOTE
This technological advantage makes it possible to conscipt the dumbest, uneducated mass to the army. Does it take much of a skill to push a certain botton at a given time? smile.gif


Obviously there are issues of Western armies being manned by social underclass - etc - and such - (though what is new about this even under the draft etc?)...but I dispute that average soldier is necessarily stupid. Sure they are young - and often unschooled...but you might be suprised at the level of technical skills required for a great many military functions...etc

QUOTE
The turth is that EU and especially U.S. are on the immoral side: the bad guys. U.S. has conquered another country for its oil interests. Well, how can you convince a U.S. citizen that an american soldier is moral and is dieing for his/her security? You can't.


Well - I don't think it is so simple as this. I'm not going to argue if it was the right or maral/immoral thing for US to invade Iraq - because I was very much against such an invasion - but I don't think it is so clear cut that it was/is immoral per se. Again - its more complicated then this... But I can agree with you certainly on the 2nd part - I don't think US soldiers are dying for US security per se... and I agree - its a tough sell...

QUOTE
If for example Russia again becomes an Evil Empire with the same military technological level of "pushing buttons war" and attacks Europe, some of our european forumers will immediately start valueing the idea of a soldier again.
Woman will start marring soldiers again and the level of gays and other perverts in Europe will drastically fall. There will be no time for that smile.gif


You've lost me completley here. OK - life is easy in the West...but I don't see what this has to do with gays etc - no matter (never mind)...

QUOTE
You may ask, "hey, you love wars more than gays?". Valid question. However, it is the U.S. and EU that now push the world towards war because of their oil interests not the arabs, terrorists or anyone else.


Again the gay thing? huh.gif - no idea really....and regardign oil interests...well yeah - but we do need oil...and what a joke on history that most of it is "owned" by Arabs and such - no? And you do think terrorists are bad guys do you not? I certainly do....

#37 THOTH

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 10:56 AM

QUOTE (ArmenSarg @ Aug 23 2004, 11:43 AM)
Sasun jan, how can you convince a Jew that there is something good about Christianity.

hm - well the Jews (of Isreal) must love Christianity don't you think?

#38 Sasun

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 11:13 AM

QUOTE (ArmenSarg @ Aug 23 2004, 12:43 PM)
Sasun jan, how can you convince a Jew that there is something good about Christianity.

I think many unorthodox and not particularly religious Jews (at least those who live in the US and Europe) appreciate Christian values. They would not call Jesus God but they seem to have adapted to the Christian environments they live in. In doing so they have automatically taken some of the assumed values of Christianity.

#39 Armen

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 11:31 AM

QUOTE
Is this conclusion based on a poll/survey result or are you just speculating (this supposed cause & effect)?


I am speculating. That's the idea that I get from media. I believe most of us are speculating om this board.

QUOTE
No - they are paid to kill others and prevent them from doing us harm...in theory


In theory, but in practice they are also paid for attacking and securing interests. They are mercenaries not soldgiers.

QUOTE
Obviously there are issues of Western armies being manned by social underclass - etc - and such - (though what is new about this even under the draft etc?)...but I dispute that average soldier is necessarily stupid. Sure they are young - and often unschooled...but you might be suprised at the level of technical skills required for a great many military functions...etc


Yes, but it requires less morals, spirit and courage. Meaning, they may not be convinced that what they do is right. But they do it anyway because the possibility of death is not that high.

QUOTE
You've lost me completley here. OK - life is easy in the West...but I don't see what this has to do with gays etc - no matter (never mind)...

Again the gay thing?  huh.gif - no idea really....and regardign oil interests...well yeah - but we do need oil...and what a joke on history that most of it is "owned" by Arabs and such - no? And you do think terrorists are bad guys do you not? I certainly do....


Indeed, nevermind the gays. I couldn't have said it better smile.gif

Yes. I think terrorists are evil. To put it in my terms. The West and terrorists represent two sides of evil:
the West represents Ahriman - dehumnized mechanical system of materialist instincts, where human decision plays no role whatsoever
the Terrorists represent Lucifer - ultimate ungrounded emotional hatered, xenophobia, fanatism

Both are aimed to derail human development.

#40 Armen

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 11:54 AM

QUOTE (Sasun @ Aug 23 2004, 11:13 AM)
I think many unorthodox and not particularly religious Jews (at least those who live in the US and Europe) appreciate Christian values. They would not call Jesus God but they seem to have adapted to the Christian environments they live in. In doing so they have automatically taken some of the assumed values of Christianity.

Some of them do it because that's in their interest. Some others are truly OK with Chrisitianity and I don't have anything agaist them.




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