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Gays/lesbians And Being Armenian


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#41 Ariane

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Posted 07 June 2007 - 03:38 AM

Gay pride Parade is wonderful, with colors, nice costumes, glitters, good techno-music... we've got one in Montpellier too,

#42 Anonymouse

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Posted 07 June 2007 - 03:41 AM

QUOTE(nairi @ Jun 7 2007, 04:28 AM)  
I just don't care enough. Mankind is one silly pool of dirt and mud that has polluted the world long enough. Which is another reason why I choose not to follow your norms of procreation.

So yes, I find it stupid that you'd get arrested for flaunting your private parts, because since when are private parts private? Who made them private? There are still lots of tribes who flaunt their manhood, without shame.

As for the flag and the cock and balls comparison, that was not what I was comparing. I was comparing the act of proudly flaunting oneself as being part of a community.


First of all, when did private parts become private? That's irrelevant. Each society adheres by its own code of ethics. If you don't like it, go live with primitive hunter gatherers who flaunt their cocks and balls all over the place and still do naked rain dances. And whoever said shame is entirely bad? It serves a purpose to and a little bit of shame is preferred over no shame at all. That is how you get self-centered nihilistic egotists who think the world is their platform for being unique.

As far as comparing acts of proudly flaunting oneself as being a part of a community, to compare a cultural and ethnic community on the same level as people who engage in a certain behavior as 'community' is again stretching the imagination. A community of skydivers or scubadivers or feet fetishists is more apt.

#43 Anonymouse

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Posted 07 June 2007 - 03:42 AM

QUOTE(Ariane @ Jun 7 2007, 04:38 AM)  
Gay pride Parade is wonderful, with colors, nice costumes, glitters, good techno-music... we've got one in Montpellier too,


Techno music? Okay, that itself should be a reason to ban gay pride parades.

#44 Ariane

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Posted 07 June 2007 - 03:48 AM

HE ! HE ! HE ! Now I know how to make you start up !!!!!

#45 nairi

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Posted 07 June 2007 - 03:53 AM

QUOTE(Anonymouse @ Jun 7 2007, 11:41 AM)  
First of all, when did private parts become private? That's irrelevant. Each society adheres by its own code of ethics. If you don't like it, go live with primitive hunter gatherers who flaunt their cocks and balls all over the place and still do naked rain dances. And whoever said shame is entirely bad? It serves a purpose to and a little bit of shame is preferred over no shame at all. That is how you get self-centered nihilistic egotists who think the world is their platform for being unique.

As far as comparing acts of proudly flaunting oneself as being a part of a community, to compare a cultural and ethnic community on the same level as people who engage in a certain behavior as 'community' is again stretching the imagination. A community of skydivers or scubadivers or feet fetishists is more apt.


I don't see the difference.

#46 SAS

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Posted 07 June 2007 - 04:40 AM

Ես առաջարկում եմ, կներեք, գյոթերի շքերթը կազմակերպել ... Գյումրիում: smile.gif Ինչո՞ւ:

Նախ՝ հայկական բանահուսությունը կհարստանա նոր զվարճախոսություններով:

Երկրորդ՝ արմատապես կլուծվի հայ գյոթերի հարցը և երկրորդ գյոթ-շքերթի խնդիր չի առաջանա առաջիկա քսան տարում:

Երրորդ՝ կենդանի մնացած վետերանների մոտ այդպիսի հարց բարձրացնելու ցանկություն այլևս չի մնա:

Այս թեման անհանար է պատկերացնել առանց անեկդոտների: tongue.gif

Կարլ Մարքս.Գյոթե՛ր բոլոր երկրների, միացե՛ք:

Լենին պապի.Գյոթությունը ծագում է այնտեղ, որտեղ ներքևինները էլ չեն կարող, իսկ վերևինները չեն ուզում:

Պասիվ գյոթ.

-Սիրեեե՜լիս, դե շուտ արա, վերջաաա՜ցրու, ես էլ չեեե՜մ կարող, դու ինձ ցաաա՜վ ես պատճառում:

Ակտիվ գյոթ.

-Ի՞նչ ես կնոջ պես նվնվում, դիմացի՛ր, մի՞թե դու տղամարդ չես:

Հ.Գ.Ճի՞շտ է, որ ԱՄՆ-ի բնակչության 10%-ը արվամոլ-լեզբուհիներ են:

#47 Sassun

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Posted 07 June 2007 - 05:23 AM

QUOTE(SAS @ Jun 7 2007, 01:40 PM)  
Ես առաջարկում եմ, կներեք, գյոթերի շքերթը կազմակերպել ... Գյումրիում: smile.gif Ինչո՞ւ:

Նախ՝ հայկական բանահուսությունը կհարստանա նոր զվարճախոսություններով:

Երկրորդ՝ արմատապես կլուծվի հայ գյոթերի հարցը և երկրորդ գյոթ-շքերթի խնդիր չի առաջանա առաջիկա քսան տարում:

Երրորդ՝ կենդանի մնացած վետերանների մոտ այդպիսի հարց բարձրացնելու ցանկություն այլևս չի մնա:

Այս թեման անհանար է պատկերացնել առանց անեկդոտների: tongue.gif

Կարլ Մարքս.Գյոթե՛ր բոլոր երկրների, միացե՛ք:

Լենին պապի.Գյոթությունը ծագում է այնտեղ, որտեղ ներքևինները էլ չեն կարող, իսկ վերևինները չեն ուզում:

Պասիվ գյոթ.

-Սիրեեե՜լիս, դե շուտ արա, վերջաաա՜ցրու, ես էլ չեեե՜մ կարող, դու ինձ ցաաա՜վ ես պատճառում:

Ակտիվ գյոթ.

-Ի՞նչ ես կնոջ պես նվնվում, դիմացի՛ր, մի՞թե դու տղամարդ չես:

Հ.Գ.Ճի՞շտ է, որ ԱՄՆ-ի բնակչության 10%-ը արվամոլ-լեզբուհիներ են:

huh.gif lol.gif lol.gif


#48 vahan79

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Posted 07 June 2007 - 07:44 AM

QUOTE(Anonymouse @ Jun 6 2007, 10:15 PM)  
My personal views on homosexuality are almost neutral unless otherwise. I don't care if someone is gay, wants to be gay, or thinks they are gay. What people do in their lives and in their bedrooms, is of no ones concern. However, I have a problem when homosexuals try to export their lifestyle and advertise it constantly. Homosexuals are a vociferous group and in Hollywood, movies, media, academia, universities, and here in L.A. they are always trying to commercialize and advertise homosexuality as an 'alternative lifestyle' and that we should all be accepting. When homosexuals push their lifestyle into my zone of privacy then I have an issue. If you want to be gay, fine, just keep it to yourself. But please, for God's sake, don't advertise and flaunt your gayness all over the map for us to see that you are gay. We are perfectly adept at judging whether someone is gay based on the lisp, the manner of walking, hand movements, etc. There is no need to advertise to the rest of the world that you are gay. Calm down, have a beer.

It's almost as if homosexuals are trying to convince themselves more than anyone that they are gay.


Thanks for responding! But, actually, my friend is anything but a lisping, swishing, hand moving gay. He was the quarterback/captain of the high school football team and played baseball, actually. Anyway, I think those types of gay people are just the most obvious, but there are lots of others that you wouldn't know about (like my friend).

Also, I think you must have a problem with gays if you don't like their "advertising" it. They have a subculture, right? Just like Armenians. We advertise, have our own section of the city (Little Armenia), plus we have Glendale. We have our own programs on the international channel, our own phone books, etc. Why isn't it okay for them? I think you are assuming that they are trying to push their gayness in your face and be confrontation, but I have always seen those things as a way of galvinizing them together, giving them a sense of community.

About Hollywood. There are SO few openly gay/ out gay (what is the right term?) actors/actresses. It is not accepted. Yes, gay shows up on lots of shows/movies, but I think it's more just for straight people's entertainment. Look at Jack on Will & Grace....we are laughing AT him not WITH him. It reminds me of how tv and cinema would use black people for entertainment back in the day (and arguably even today!)

Anyway, thanks again....


#49 vahan79

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Posted 07 June 2007 - 07:53 AM

QUOTE(Anonymouse @ Jun 6 2007, 10:35 PM)  
This post should be on a sticky on the front of the forum for the most glaring example of ignorance.

You do realize that in todays liberal climate homosexuality is not merely just some deviant behavior people engage in right? It's an 'alternative lifestyle' that is flaunted to our youths and permeates society from almost every orifice of communication. This is no longer a question about 'being born gay' or whatever. Here in modernity, we invent homosexuals and the homosexual identity. It no longer encompasses those poor souls who were born with a predisposition to be gay, but includes all sorts of deviants and wackos who want to experiment, and change sexes and jump clothes from being gay to bisexual and back to being straight.

The majority will always be heterosexual but that misses the point my fellow liberal hippie poster with a French name. In this society, "The West" (i.e. Europe, whatever that means, and America including Canada), Armenians are no longer going from water into wine, but they are water that mix with sands and turn into mud. And while homosexuality or the threat and spectre of homosexuality and its continued promotion in inculcating into the minds of the youth that it is the hip thing to be, is not itself a threat, but coupled with the alarming rate of Armenian miscegeneation and lack of culture creating folk, and you have your culprit of "no reproduction". And while some self-styled Armenians among these boards and beyond like to believe they are righteous Armenians, I assure you, they are nothing but negative leftovers or paper Armenians with the stench of their virulent hedonistic nihilism. To such people, being Armenian is no more and no less a fad than the alternativeness of homosexuality. It's merely a jumpsuit people go in and out of.


Hmm...have you ever thought that the "homosexual agenda" argument you are making is propaganda from the Christian right? First, isn't the more logical take on the "spread of gayness" that people are feeling more and more comfortable to come to terms with who they really are now that being gay has become (a little) more accepted? That is, people don't feel the need to stay "in the closet" as long as they used to. Second, why would people join a "fad" of being gay? It is by no stretch of the imagination seen as popular or trendy. That is such a myth! Only gay people and a few open-minded straights will accept a gay person, it's not like cool=gay in that many places, even in LA, dude. Again, this is propaganda. So what if people experiment...have you ever considered that they are trying to figure out who they are?

Yes, there is a "gay culture", but isn't that just a product of unity among gays in certain areas (like West Hollywood, etc.). There is an Armenian culture that is invented as well. Armenian culture was invented by Armenian people, same with gay culture. It is different in many ways, but in many ways it is the same. Your writing implies that there is some puppeteer standing behind the scenes controlling everything and drafting the gay constitution. It's not that way....


#50 vahan79

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Posted 07 June 2007 - 08:03 AM

QUOTE(Anonymouse @ Jun 7 2007, 02:34 AM)  
Really? And you see something wrong with that? Heterosexuals are the norm and the life force of civilization. Pray to God they keep flaunting it. Deviant behaviors like homosexuality should be tolerated. No one here is advocating killing homosexuals or locking them up. What happened to those two gay teens in Iran is a shame. However, with that said, heterosexuals do not need to have pride parades where they get to dress up half naked with their cocks and balls all over the place.

But then again, you do live in Europe and clearly you and Ariane know best because anyone who lives in Europe knows best, since they are so tolerant and liberal and progressive, right?



քանի pride parade՚ներ ես գնացել? Եթե չես գնացել, ինչպես գիտես? huh.gif

Edited by vahan79, 07 June 2007 - 08:07 AM.


#51 Arvestaked

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Posted 07 June 2007 - 02:00 PM

So can someone post what passages in this stupid bible of yours make homosexuality a sin?

#52 Anonymouse

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Posted 08 June 2007 - 01:03 PM

QUOTE(vahan79 @ Jun 7 2007, 08:44 AM)  
Thanks for responding! But, actually, my friend is anything but a lisping, swishing, hand moving gay. He was the quarterback/captain of the high school football team and played baseball, actually. Anyway, I think those types of gay people are just the most obvious, but there are lots of others that you wouldn't know about (like my friend).

Also, I think you must have a problem with gays if you don't like their "advertising" it. They have a subculture, right? Just like Armenians. We advertise, have our own section of the city (Little Armenia), plus we have Glendale. We have our own programs on the international channel, our own phone books, etc. Why isn't it okay for them? I think you are assuming that they are trying to push their gayness in your face and be confrontation, but I have always seen those things as a way of galvinizing them together, giving them a sense of community.

About Hollywood. There are SO few openly gay/ out gay (what is the right term?) actors/actresses. It is not accepted. Yes, gay shows up on lots of shows/movies, but I think it's more just for straight people's entertainment. Look at Jack on Will & Grace....we are laughing AT him not WITH him. It reminds me of how tv and cinema would use black people for entertainment back in the day (and arguably even today!)

Anyway, thanks again....


QUOTE(vahan79 @ Jun 7 2007, 08:53 AM)  
Hmm...have you ever thought that the "homosexual agenda" argument you are making is propaganda from the Christian right? First, isn't the more logical take on the "spread of gayness" that people are feeling more and more comfortable to come to terms with who they really are now that being gay has become (a little) more accepted? That is, people don't feel the need to stay "in the closet" as long as they used to. Second, why would people join a "fad" of being gay? It is by no stretch of the imagination seen as popular or trendy. That is such a myth! Only gay people and a few open-minded straights will accept a gay person, it's not like cool=gay in that many places, even in LA, dude. Again, this is propaganda. So what if people experiment...have you ever considered that they are trying to figure out who they are?

Yes, there is a "gay culture", but isn't that just a product of unity among gays in certain areas (like West Hollywood, etc.). There is an Armenian culture that is invented as well. Armenian culture was invented by Armenian people, same with gay culture. It is different in many ways, but in many ways it is the same. Your writing implies that there is some puppeteer standing behind the scenes controlling everything and drafting the gay constitution. It's not that way....


This is a silly line of reasoning. How many times are we going to here these illogical and erroneous analogies between homosexuality and races and ethnics. Suggesting that gay "subculture" is the same as the Armenian culture in that they "invent it" lacks any and all morsel of reason. Just what "culture" do gays invent? The culture of hairstylists? That's silly. The error in such reasoning and judgment is only attributable to emotional liberals and egalitarians who, in the haze of things, do not pause and reflect on the absurdity of such a proposition. They do not stop to think that homosexuality is primarily defined as a behavior, or an act of engaging in sexual behaviors with someone of the same sex. There is no reason to compare what it is at its root, a ehavior, on par with racial or ethnic identity. This reasoning ignores the fact that homosexuality is a phenonemon that has occurred for time immemorial across different boundaries and it is a behavior that is found across races, peoples and ethnicities, not as an unalterable identity that is fixed, such as someone's racial or ethnic identity. In other words, there are homosexuals who are Armenian, French, Mexican, white, black, Oriental. Homosexual behavior on the other hand is very vague and nebulous by those who engage in it. One minute they are gay, another minute they are bisexual. There is no reason to attribute it as some sort of a fixed identity when it is merely a behavior preference.

QUOTE(vahan79 @ Jun 7 2007, 09:03 AM)  
քանի pride parade՚ներ ես գնացել? Եթե չես գնացել, ինչպես գիտես? huh.gif


I would imagine you could have squeezed that melon of a head of yours to produce a better insult than this. This is patently obvious to anyone who watches television or reads newspapers, and hence it goes back to what I was saying about homosexuality being promoted from every orifice of communication. What this reminds me of is that adage homosexuals like to throw out, namely how everyone is gay but they just 'dont know it'.

Be that as it may, in The History of Sexuality Foucault, himself a homosexual, identified homosexuality as a modern invention, i.e. the idea of homosexuality as a group in itself that is somehow distinct and conscious of itself. Prior to that there was never a question of whether homosexuality is a function of genetics or choice, etc. It was simply not seen as being a fundamental part of the person, but instead as an action, a tendency, a behavior, something the person engaged in. Only in modernity has it become part of identity politics. Even among the Greeks, where modern supporters of homosexual rights like to point, society was not what they make it out to be. In Greece men were fully allowed to engage in relationships with other men, provided that they eventually married. The Greeks understood a distinction between something one did as in a behavior, and an institution of civilization as in marriage. In Foucault's words:

"Homosexuality appears as one of the forms of sexuality when it was transposed from the practice of sodomy onto a kind of interior androgyny, a hermaphroditism of the soul. The sodomite had been a temporary aberration; the homosexual was now a species."

So the same post-modernists who were not hesitant to have created the politics of the left's identity politics to class homosexuality as a distinct identity, i.e. an alternative lifestyle, are also many of the vaunted experts who say how anyone can be a homosexual depending on who you ask and how you float on the Kinsey scale, and the very word itself is as elastic as a rubber band.


#53 ED

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Posted 08 June 2007 - 01:49 PM

QUOTE(Arvestaked @ Jun 7 2007, 01:00 PM)  
So can someone post what passages in this stupid bible of yours make homosexuality a sin?



The Bible doesn't say nothing about necrophilia also, would it make them OK also in your book?

#54 kakachik77

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Posted 08 June 2007 - 02:29 PM

QUOTE(Edward @ Jun 8 2007, 01:49 PM)  
The Bible doesn't say nothing about necrophilia also, would it make them OK also in your book?


pedophilia I think is not mentioned either


I consider myself to be very open-minded about these kind of issues, nonetheless, I still cannot stop thinking that there is something inherently "wrong" in homosexuality, or it is not the norm or something of the sort. I still have to figure out what it is that I don't like.



#55 DominO

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Posted 08 June 2007 - 02:41 PM

QUOTE(vahan79 @ Jun 3 2007, 08:35 PM)  
(4) How do you personally feel about gays/lesbians/etc.?


It is a non issue, gays are physiologically just as us. I've been there long ago. There is no descrimination against gays for what they are, but rather for their lifestyle. People should clearly see the distinction between descrimination against blacks and women and descrimination based on lifestyle. Blacks are descriminated because of a physiological reason, their skin happen to be black, women are descriminated because they are physiologically women. Gays are not descriminated because of what they are. I like Linux and like using it, I like painting, taking pictures, etc., I have lifestyles different than others. If I am kicked out from a job because I want to use Linux, I am not being descriminated. The gays have created the supposed "gay culture", it is a lifestyle nothing more. And I will not be answering Nairi faulty comparaison between hetersexuality and homosexuality. There is no cases reported that one could fall in love with a man but yet being physically (sexually attracted by a woman). Love is a biological process, the esult of natural selection, its end result is procreation. Heterosexuality is not only a lifestyle, even though with the advances of technology it might just be in the future.

What I feel about gays? Like I said it is a non issue. Limiting one to his simple sexual attraction is stupid. What people do of their personal life is nobody business, this I agree. What I refuse is the so-called non-existing gay culture. Lets fk a donkey and then creat a culture of donkey fkers. This part of course was as an answer to Nairi.

#56 nairi

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Posted 08 June 2007 - 02:48 PM

QUOTE(Anonymouse @ Jun 8 2007, 09:03 PM)  
Be that as it may, in The History of Sexuality Foucault, himself a homosexual, identified homosexuality as a modern invention, i.e. the idea of homosexuality as a group in itself that is somehow distinct and conscious of itself. Prior to that there was never a question of whether homosexuality is a function of genetics or choice, etc. It was simply not seen as being a fundamental part of the person, but instead as an action, a tendency, a behavior, something the person engaged in. Only in modernity has it become part of identity politics. Even among the Greeks, where modern supporters of homosexual rights like to point, society was not what they make it out to be. In Greece men were fully allowed to engage in relationships with other men, provided that they eventually married. The Greeks understood a distinction between something one did as in a behavior, and an institution of civilization as in marriage. In Foucault's words:

"Homosexuality appears as one of the forms of sexuality when it was transposed from the practice of sodomy onto a kind of interior androgyny, a hermaphroditism of the soul. The sodomite had been a temporary aberration; the homosexual was now a species."


What you're not saying, for some reason, is that both the designations (aberration and species) were given by heterosexuals. It is the heterosexual that invented, classified, and defined the homosexual, not the homosexual.

Ironically, Foucault's writings served as a manifesto for gay identity politics in the 1970s.

As for identity politics in general, they have been criticized for quite some time now, if only because they tend to exclude those who do not fit in the construct. Yet, minorities are "unifying" and creating their own agendas everywhere, including Armenians. Armenian Genocide recognition is, in fact, a product of twentieth century Western identity politics. Likewise, certain homosexuals feel the need to make themselves heard on a political platform, asking to be recognized and enjoy basic human rights, such as the choice to be legally married. If in the process some of these homosexuals create a certain "homosexual identity," then they're not doing anything different from heterosexuals, who have created a "heterosexual identity" since the dawn of mankind. From this perspective, if there is anything fixed in human beings, it must be the tendency to form clans, tribes, groups, and subcultures. Those that feel oppressed or in some way thwarted by the dominant culture will also be those who will use identity politics to their defence, whether it is based on ethnicity, race, gender, age, hair color, nail length, or sexuality.

#57 DominO

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Posted 08 June 2007 - 02:49 PM

QUOTE(kakachik77 @ Jun 8 2007, 04:29 PM)  
pedophilia I think is not mentioned either


I consider myself to be very open-minded about these kind of issues, nonetheless, I still cannot stop thinking that there is something inherently "wrong" in homosexuality, or it is not the norm or something of the sort. I still have to figure out what it is that I don't like.


Homoseuality did probably have a role on human societies, as it seems to be very heavily influenced by environment not all necessarly devient. So how far is it a coping mechanism has still to be understood. For instance we know that prisoners can acquire attraction among people of the same sex to satisfy their sexual desire. We also know that there is some link on boys physical abuses and then later attraction to boys. But it is very different for women, as homosexuality among women in nature, could have had relevent control on limiting procreation under the influence of limited ressources. Some sort of complex K strategy. This explains why women tend to be more bisexual then man. I always wondered if women seasonal hormonal varriance does have influences on their bisexuality. Winter for instance when ressources are limited I wonder if bisexual women will tend to concentrate on homoseual activities. Of topic I know. smile.gif

#58 DominO

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Posted 08 June 2007 - 02:52 PM

QUOTE(nairi @ Jun 8 2007, 04:48 PM)  
What you're not saying, for some reason, is that both the designations (aberration and species) were given by heterosexuals. It is the heterosexual that invented, classified, and defined the homosexual, not the homosexual.

Ironically, Foucault's writings served as a manifesto for gay identity politics in the 1970s.

As for identity politics in general, they have been criticized for quite some time now, if only because they tend to exclude those who do not fit in the construct. Yet, minorities are "unifying" and creating their own agendas everywhere, including Armenians. Armenian Genocide recognition is, in fact, a product of twentieth century Western identity politics. Likewise, certain homosexuals feel the need to make themselves heard on a political platform, asking to be recognized and enjoy basic human rights, such as the choice to be legally married. If in the process some of these homosexuals create a certain "homosexual identity," then they're not doing anything different from heterosexuals, who have created a "heterosexual identity" since the dawn of mankind. From this perspective, if there is anything fixed in human beings, it must be the tendency to form clans, tribes, groups, and subcultures. Those that feel oppressed or in some way thwarted by the dominant culture will also be those who will use identity politics to their defence, whether it is based on ethnicity, race, gender, age, hair color, nail length, or sexuality.


Yes, true, heterosexuals did creat this identity, but from your answers you do seem to want the preservation of an identity which is not supposed to exist in the first place. Identifying people based on their sexual attraction is stupid. I guess from this answer above you won't have a problem with throwing the supposed "gay culture" in the garbage can.

#59 nairi

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Posted 08 June 2007 - 03:12 PM

QUOTE(Domino @ Jun 8 2007, 10:52 PM)  
Yes, true, heterosexuals did creat this identity, but from your answers you do seem to want the preservation of an identity which is not supposed to exist in the first place. Identifying people based on their sexual attraction is stupid. I guess from this answer above you won't have a problem with throwing the supposed "gay culture" in the garbage can.


I don't know what you base your interpretation on.

At the end of the day, I said that I don't care enough to take a fixed stance on these issues. If it makes some gays happy to hang out together, form a clan, and call it "gay culture," I quite frankly don't care enough to budge from my lazy behind. Call it a "supposed 'gay culture'" if you like, and classify it as something which does not or should not exist. I still don't care enough.


#60 Sip

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Posted 08 June 2007 - 03:16 PM

Nairi, I think if we weren't so lazy, we could definitely form our own "lazy culture" and even have our own "lazy pride parades". But then again, if we weren't lazy, it wouldn't make much sense to do all that. Hmmmm ... how strangely ironic.




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