27 replies to this topic

[Arpa]

parev,shlama
i´m half Armenian/assyrian from sweden and i like to know if you Armenians are against a Assyrian land in the M.E?
My mother is from armenia and my father is assyrian.
but i feel that i am 110% HYE.

have you Armenians in the US planing to do something, demonstrate or something 23third of October? because the Faschist Turkey´s independentday 80-years 1923.
here in sweden the Assyrians hope to demonstrate with the Armenians 23third of October.

Barev, Shlama to you too Assyria/Armenia.

i´m half Armenian/assyrian from sweden and i like to know if you Armenians are against a Assyrian land in the M.E?

Please tell us about it. Maybe we can help.
Where? When? How soon?
First off, welcome. I hope you stay so we can have meaniningful discussions.
We have had others professing to be Assyrians who withdrew quite abruptly. We may have had something to do with it but mostly it was a huge misunderstanding on everyone's part.
We learned very little about each others' history, culture, dreams and aspirations. What we know about Assyrina history is mainly written by third parties, we know very little what Asyrians say what and who they are as you will see from the URLs below.
As to Bassam I would have liked him to see this and tell us about his and tell us about his choice of friends:

http://www.hti.umich...&size=First 100

I am not trying to be confrontational, on the contrary as stated in the posts below I am genuinely curious to know.

Before we go any further let us read the below items so we don't repeat some of the same things and perhaps learn to avoid each others' sensitive spots.

Religion Bass;
http://armenians.com...topic=3249&st=0

Genocide Bassam;

http://armenians.com...topic=3224&st=0

In the meantime perhaps our Assyrian brothers can plead with their compatriots who have posted the following maps to please show us where Armenian is.

Maps:
http://www.nineveh.com/whoarewe.htm

http://www.hyperhist...n2/assyria.html

http://www.execulink...ank/ancassy.htm

Finally read this and acquaint yourself with the best Assyrian/Armenian I have known(father Asori, mother Armenian). I don't know how much Aramaic/Assyrian he knows, but I know he knows better Armenian than many of our academicians.
Doghramji:
http://www.churcharm...in4_29_01c.html

[America-Hye]

It is really not right to be spreading untruths. Any reliable historian can tell you that the people now called Assyrians are the offshoots of the followers of Nestorius, and are gleaned from many different peoples of the Missle East, mainly Persians. Their ties to the ancient Assyrians are nebulous at best. Some may inadvertently be descended for the ancient Assyrians, but this is definately not the rule. It took me years of intense study to realize that even though my grandfather was a "Chaldean" that in reality he was an "Assyriian." This is because until the 17th century there had not been any Chaldeans for thosands of years. When some "Assyrians," or to be truthful Nestorians, decided to join the Catholic Church, they took upon themselves the name "Chaldeans" to differentiate themselves from those who did not seek union with Rome.

[nairi]

Last month they held a protest march against the denial of the Assyrian Genocide by Turkey in Holland. They did the same about three or four years ago, but got beaten up by Grey Wolves. This time nothing happened, except for some press taking notice.

Here's the article in Dutch taken from the Telegraaf, but posted on this Dutch Assyrian website:

Title: Assyrians demand attention for "forgotten genocide"

http://www.bethnahri...icles.php?ID=41

As for Dutch Assyrian-Armenian efforts in Holland, there are no such signs yet.

[Arpa]

Thank you A-H for a most candid reply.
Please everybody understand that I am not trying to burst anyone's bubble. I am genuinely interested to know, as stated previously. We know about Assyria through third parties and mainly through that BOOK, where you saw nothing is said to write home about, so to speak. So! What else is new! When is the last time thry said anything good about any of their neighbors. Enough said about that.
I have tried so hard to understand, with very little successs. who the Assyrians, Chaldean, Babylonians, Ninehvans and others are. You must forgive me if I sin. The latest Turkish argument is that there really was no Armenia except, perhaps the Kilikian Kingdom. What they mean is there was no STATE known as Armenia. So what else is new! Statehood as we understand it today is a new concept that slowly took shape after the French Revolution. Therefor the Turks may be technically right while they are also wrong. No mattter which map one surveys, however old or new, no matter who has drawn it there has always been an Armenia. Amorphous, may be? Like I said, what else is new?
Now, let's see where Assyria is. Was there really a defined land known as Assyria? All references point to the Assyrian Empire. Shall we also point to Tigran's Empire as Armenia. The Assyrian Empire comprised of Babylon, Ninevah, Syria, Palestine, at times Armenia, Egypt and more. After the era of the Empire that land was known as Mesopotamia, omce a again an amorphous stretch which simply means Between (two) Rivers, known as Mijagetq in Armenian (Known in Arabic/Aramaic as Beyn Nahrain. BTW Armenians refer to their land as Mijagetq at times as well, undertandably). This can take longer than I would like so I will come to the point.
When Assyrians talk about founding a country of their own what and where do they have in mind? What will it be called? Chaldea, Ninevah, Babylonia, Mesopotamia, Syria .....Nestoria? And so on.

Please, please, don't get me wrong. I wish all the best to them/you. I wish they would get together and really aim for a homeland. Armenians would be delighetd if there were another force in the area that would cause that biggest of the beasts in the region some real headache. Our wish and dreams of many years would be so much easier to accomplish if and when the Assyrians, the Kurds and all of the oppressed people of the region would put their heads and arms together and give those SOBs something to contend with.

Am I hoping against hope?

Where would Assyria be? Is it like some Armenians who insist that we get back all the Lands, all the way from the Caspian Sea to the Sea of Galilee. Fill it with whom?

BTW. A-H, I have heard about the Nestorians but I don't make it my business to know about sects, denominations and ...cults. If nestorism kept and preserved what was left of the Chaldeans and others, the more power to them, but that does not amount to more than when Armenians were Christian Turks at one time (some still are).

Once again, when will the Assyrians rise and get themselves a homeland. We will assist them as long as they don't, like the Kurds claim Yerevan Province and its neighborhood as part of their empire too.

I hope I am turning anyone off, I am sincerely interested and highly supportive, if even for very personal (Armenian) reasons. As Bassam had implied in many of his posts: The enemy of my enemy CAN be my friend.

[America-Hye]

The Armenians existed as a distinct peple BEFORE their conversion to Christianity. Despite the inbreeding of numerous other gene pools (not different from many European nations) this uniqueness has continued to the present. This differs from the other part of my heritage. However, given the treatment that they get from Turkey/Iraq a state for this group remains a positive move.

[DominO]

I would want to talk about that, but since there is no web-site about it, I would have to quote from some works I have digitized, and write long on it. I don't have much energy to do that now and don't know if I will for soon.


Many things that Hagarag brings are true.

Assyrians in the Ottoman Empire, for long used Armenian alphabet, managed to go to Armenian churches, and the intermarriage rate between the two communities was very high. Some Ottoman officials even considered Assyrians as some sort of Armenians.

Many Assyrian communities assimilated into the Armenian one in the last century of the Ottoman.


As for the population of Assyrians in the region, there is NO any datas, even Ottoman one, that could ever give us any clues, there is some clues that in some Armenian communities, there were record keepen of estimate of Assyrians... but all those records have been destroyed with the rest during the genocide.

I got interested to that topic, because of some problems with population record from the Ottoman for the eastern zone, which entirly ignored other Christian populations.

McCarthy tries to give any numbers, but they are all absolutes, no supports at all, he brings them up his a.ss, and they don't do any sense at all, because the numbers he brings, if they were true, we would end up in the "minus" sign before any numbers, if we were to do a return in the past and include an assimilation level. That would be the worst underestimation, since even multiplying that estimation by five, we may underevaluate the population of those ignored Christian populations(they were the only ignored in Ottoman datas).

Edited by Fadix, 18 August 2003 - 06:40 PM.

[America-Hye]

Domino,

There ARE web-sites about this. I will list them when I find the time.

[DominO]

Domino,

There ARE web-sites about this. I will list them when I find the time.

Hagarag, when I said web-sites, I meant sites which would bring the points I want to discuss about.

[gamavor]

While viewing those Assyrian maps I came to the conclusion that we are very modest nation. Every normal Greek, Armenian, Kurd, Georgian, Ethrusian, Lezgy etc. might suffer from heart attack after viewing them.
Besides, Kurds also have used the Armenian alphabet although for short period of time, but they didn't become Armenians. Poor Mesrop Mashtotz couldn't menage to write alphabets for everyone in the region.

[MJ]

Is it possible that the Armenian maps are received seen in the same spirit by the rest of the people?

[addai]

I was happy to hear your background Arpa. I was part of an east syrian church group for a few years, and still have an interest in Aramaic (but never learned it, only studied Aramaic to English Bible translations and other helpful texts).

I think for the most part the assyrians missed their shot. (Not getting their own nation when Britain gave up the middle eastern territories in World War II). I think the most to hope for is for them to get perhaps some small territories in reconstructed Iraq. Also I think Assyrians (East Syrians aka Nestorian descendants), and the more Western Syrians (Syrian Church of Antioch) might try to lobby more affectively Washington and the Western nations, concerning civil rights, freedom etc. in Turkey and the middle east.

[Hayeforlife]

you know back in the time Armenia and Assyria was neighbours.
the Assyrians had a princes caled Chamiramis and she was nearly to married a Armenian king(i don´t know his name) but the Assyrians killed her because they think that she wold give Assyria to the Armenians.

[Teutonic Knight]

Those maps were of the Assyrian Empire not Assyria.
It's like if you post the map of the Armenian Empire say under Tigranes the Great and say that all those lands are Armenian.
Armenian territory in the South ends in Mesopotamia, Taurus Mountains/Med Sea in the South West and Black Sea shores in the North West, Lake Urmia in the South East and Caspian Sea/Caucasian Albania in the North East.

[Armo77]

Shlama leechon khon ati souraya oo armenaya la? raba spi! I have many close Assyrian friends. it was Assyrians that helped my family out of Iran in the 1970's. There must be 15 Assyrian/Armenian mixed people that I know. The Assyrians treat me really good even though I am Nikharaya. God bless the Armenian and Assyrian people.. We both have been through a lot.

As for wanting Assyrians to have land.. LONG live Ator.. I am all for it! However, the region in the M.E. is 95% controlled and owned by Arabs. It really is not up to us or G.W. Bush for that matter. Only non-Arabs that own land in that region are the Jews. and they are having a hard time keeping it. But I really hope Assyrians can have a country of thier own one day.. Us Armenians could use more christian neighbors in the region.

However, I know Iraq is not the only land once owned by Assyrians, THE HOLE region was once Assyria. Keleleleleleleleeeee

Edited by Armo77, 20 December 2003 - 07:30 PM.

[Hayeforlife]

Well there is a huge problem for the Assyrians because the Kurdish people have taken their land and call it Kurdistan.
The Kurdish people think that Ararat is theirs to and it´s belong to Kurdistan they think.
let them dream about it, one fine day we will take Ararat back from Turkey because Ararat belongs to Armenia and no body else.
ARARAT FOR LIFE, ARMENIA FOR LIFE

[America-Hye]

I know of SO MANY Armenian/Assyrian mixes that there are too many to count. But the one I am most proud of is the Congresswoman from California Anna Georges Eshoo, born to an Armenian mother and an Assyrian father. I am the other way, born to a half Assyrian/half Armenain mother and an Armenian father. I think the world of California Representative Simitian and Mayor Manoukian. As for former Rep. Howard Kaloogian, now running to unseat the Armenian friend Senator Boxer, and the other Armenian NAZI politicians in California I think they should go directly to hell.

[Arpa]

Those maps were of the Assyrian Empire not Assyria.

Dear Knight, you may have forgotten or overlooked where I said these words a few posts up;

Now, let's see where Assyria is. Was there really a defined land known as Assyria? All references point to the Assyrian Empire. Shall we also point to Tigran's Empire as Armenia. The Assyrian Empire comprised of Babylon, Ninevah, Syria, Palestine, at times Armenia, Egypt and more. After the era of the Empire that land was known as Mesopotamia, omce a again an amorphous stretch which simply means Between (two) Rivers, known as Mijagetq in Armenian (Known in Arabic/Aramaic as Beyn Nahrain. BTW Armenians refer to their land as Mijagetq at times as well, undertandably). This can take longer than I would like so I will come to the point.
When Assyrians talk about founding a country of their own what and where do they have in mind? What will it be called? Chaldea, Ninevah, Babylonia, Mesopotamia, Syria .....Nestoria? And so on.

By the same token if we were to claim Damscus based on Tigran's empire...

[Teutonic Knight]

Dear Knight, you may have forgotten or overlooked where I said these words a few posts up;

Now, let's see where Assyria is. Was there really a defined land known as Assyria? All references point to the Assyrian Empire. Shall we also point to Tigran's Empire as Armenia. The Assyrian Empire comprised of Babylon, Ninevah, Syria, Palestine, at times Armenia, Egypt and more. After the era of the Empire that land was known as Mesopotamia, omce a again an amorphous stretch which simply means Between (two) Rivers, known as Mijagetq in Armenian (Known in Arabic/Aramaic as Beyn Nahrain. BTW Armenians refer to their land as Mijagetq at times as well, undertandably). This can take longer than I would like so I will come to the point.
When Assyrians talk about founding a country of their own what and where do they have in mind? What will it be called? Chaldea, Ninevah, Babylonia, Mesopotamia, Syria .....Nestoria? And so on.

By the same token if we were to claim Damscus based on Tigran's empire...

Good, that's basically what I meant.

I have a question about "Chaldeans".
I have come across many definitions on these people and all of them in conflict with one another.
What's your take on Chaldeans?
Are they a distinct people? Was there really a land south of mijagetk known as Chaldea?
Are Chaldeans just Catholic Assyrians?

[America-Hye]

Chaldeans are JUST Catholic Assyrians. Assyrians are not necessarily Assyrians but followers of Bishop Nestorius of Constantinople. Their membership was gleaned from different ethnic groups, but mostly Christian Persians. It was not until the early 1700's that the Chaldeans were formed out of the "Assyrians." They assumed the name "Chaldeans" to differeniate themselves from the Assyrians.

[Teutonic Knight]

Chaldeans are JUST Catholic Assyrians. Assyrians are not necessarily Assyrians but followers of Bishop Nestorius of Constantinople. Their membership was gleaned from different ethnic groups, but mostly Christian Persians. It was not until the early 1700's that the Chaldeans were formed out of the "Assyrians." They assumed the name "Chaldeans" to differeniate themselves from the Assyrians.

So you're saying that modern Assyrians are not the same Assyrians of ancient times but various people (mostly Persians) with a common religion?