Posted 24 August 2005 - 09:21 AM
Kumkap please use capitalization. Reading your post was very frustrating in its state.
[quote=kumkap,Aug 23 2005, 04:37 PM]
i hesitate to write this artaxias because i know you blow me out of the water in terms of knowledge of history, etc., but saying that we are european, does this mean we have more in common with say the english, the french, the swedes, than we do with a persian, a lebanese arab, or even a kurd? [/quote]
[quote]does this mean we can't jump, suck at basketball, play a boring, dull style of soccer that the brazilians run rings around, can't dance, play music based on nice, neat tempered scales in 4/4 time, [/quote]
What kind of degenerate nonsense is this?
[quote]copy other people's music (mainly blacks), [/quote]
What's black music? Blues ? lol
The instruments were invented by us and so was the music. Earliest forms of such music came from Celtic lands.
[quote]and eat bland, tasteless food. [/quote]
No food on earth can compete with European cuisine. None.
[quote]greeks, bulgarians, serbs is about as far into europe as i care to liken armenians to. [/quote]
Fine. What do I care?
[quote]europe is a well-defined geographical area but "european" is too vague a concept to be meaningful. [/quote]
It's not well defined.
[quote]does it mean way of thinking, food, music, approach to family life, language? [/quote]
All of the above, including race and religion. Race comes first, followed by culture. Both are required. IE: Albanians, Turks, Azeris and Bosniaks are not European neither are Saamis for the most part. On the other hand, the Maltese who speak a guttural filthy semitic tongue are perfectly European as far as i'm concerned as they are loyal and have preserved all their values, in their case the language is irrelevant.
[quote]i see the arguments that armenians are european, [/quote]
Only fools argue about facts.
[quote]but the reality is that historically armenians have born very little resemblence culturally to the people living in the territorial area known as europe. [/quote]
Which "Armenians" are those? The ones from the 5th dimension?
[quote]this is true today too - i do not think armenians living in syria, iran, turkey, iraq, egypt, view themselves as european either. [/quote]
I couldn't care less. If all of them were erased today I wouldn't lose any sleep. Products of rape, I treat them the same way I treat the turkified population of Anatolia.
Luckily this doesn't aplly to all of them. I'd say 1 out 5 can be salvaged.
[quote]they are not cultural hermits in their countries, living in a bubble, they are fully a part of the cultural fabric of the societies they live in.[/quote]
Therefore not Armenian.
[quote]is this all because armenians in those countries have lost their european culture and become islamized? maybe. [/quote]
[quote]but at the same time we don't ask to what extent 70 years of soviet rule changed armenian culture. [/quote]
I was expecting this.
It didn't change it. It upgraded it, while the rest of you remained in the past centuries.
[quote]did soviet armenia preserve the anatolian armenian culture that the victims of the genocide belonged to? [/quote]
[quote] i find the european armenian convention declaration very bizarre. how far do you have to go back to arrive at a time when armenians were european? [/quote]
When Cilicia fell. First Republic and Soviet reforms were good but more needs to be done to erase several centuries of filth. It's not easy to raise a Phoenix from its ashes. Perhaps a civil war or two...
[quote]armenians living in the u.s., europe, and the russian empire is a recent phenomenon. for the bulk of their history, when not independent armenians lived under roman, persian, byzantine, arab, and turkish empires, all empires of the ancient and modern near eastern world. [/quote]
Did Greeks cease to be European under barbarian occupation?
Were the Spaniards dune coons in the dark ages?
[quote]was king artaxias, living in the second century b.c., a european? [/quote]
[quote]what about tigran the great, was he a white european from the north conquering the middle east? [/quote]
Sure he was.
[quote]well, certainly they were indo-europeans, but mesopotamian sources say that the babylonians, sumerians, traded with a "people of ararat".[/quote]
They do not say that/ They say Aratta, Aratta is NOT Ararat. We don't know where is Ararat. Currents best guess is either Bahrain or the territory of Elam, Jiroft.
[quote]so did the "people of ararat" have more in common with the ancestors of anglo-saxons let's say, with whom they had no contact at all, than they did with the mesopotamians (ancestors of today's iraqis), who they traded with? [/quote]
I will go ahead and assume you're talking about Biainili now.
1)The ancestors of Angles and Saxons settled in Europe after the retreat of the glaciers, at the end of the last ice age. We call them Upper Paleolithic, or UP peoples. Divived by Borreby and Brünn types. After IE settlements brought other types like Hallstatt the blend is what we have now( Trønder, Fälish etc.) in Northern Europe, well Eurasia back then.
2) Our ancestors are IE's and pre-IE's. Just like those of Greeks, Romans, Celts etc. It's just that our pre-IE's were civilized Minoans, Pelasgians, Hurrians, Etruscans, Iberians (not the Ibero-Celts) etc. All of whom showed both racial and cultural continuity.
3) Mesopotamians influenced us, true but they were influenced by the same pre-IE's such as Sumerians, Hurrians, Elamites etc. And we influenced them again, Phillistines (Achaeans), Luwians etc. A large number of IE words in old semitic tongues attest this.
[quote]so how far do you have to go back? probably by the time you get past all the periods of foreign rule you're at a time when there was nothing going on in europe![/quote]
There is no such time.
[quote]frequently it's pointed out that armenian is an indo-european language. well, so are persian, pashtun, urdu, hindi, and sanskrit. nobody is going around claiming those people are european.[/quote]
Nope. But Ossetians who are also Indo-Aryan are perfectly European.
[quote] armenians are christian? well, christianity is not a european religion. [/quote]
Irrelevant. European Christendom.
Again, a pagan or atheists fingernail means more than all of Ethiopia or Columbia.
[quote]to me, that christianity is identified with europeans is an indication that an act of cultural theft has taken place. [/quote]
Wrong again. European Christendom has been IE and European from day uno.
Christianity in essence is the evolution of our ancient beliefs (trinity).
[quote] read the bible from cover to cover and you will not encounter a single white european in the entire narrative.[/quote]
The old testament is irrelevant.
[quote]not a single event related in the bible takes place in europe. instead the events take place in what is now egypt, iraq, syria, jordan, israel, iran, turkey, etc. [/quote]
All those lands where essentialy ours before the cave dwelling arabs invaded.
[quote]the existence of armenians is a reminder to the world of the true origins of christianity. it was middle eastern civilization that gave rise to the spread of christianity. [/quote]
Wrong. Hellenistic civilization gave rise to Christianity!
[quote]but starting with the crusades and right up to today, western europeans (which includes americans) have shown they have a racialized understanding of christianity. otherwise they would not have slaughtered all those eastern christians. this turns christianity into something like judaism - salvation and sharing in the kingdom of god only for one ethnic or racial group. [/quote]
That's great. Religion must serve race and nation, not the other way around.
[quote]specialists of indo-european linguists who are proponents of the anatolian-farming hypothesis of indo-european origins tell us that all the european languages (with a few exceptions) descend from a single language that was spoken in anatolia thousands of years ago. this means that the languages of the people who were living in what is western europe today were gradually replaced by languages spoken by people originating from anatolia who migrated into europe. it is also thought that these anatolian migrants introduced agriculture into europe, which means that europeans were hunter-gatherers until people from the middle east introduced farming to them. to me, anatolia has much stronger historical and cultural links with mesopotamia, persia, the levant, north africa, etc. than it does with western europe. thus middle easterners in a sense gave europeans their language, agriculture, and their religion. [/quote]
1)Anatolia is not in the middle east.
2)Anatolians had connection with South Western and Eastern Europe but none with so called Middle Easterners.
Middle Easterners never gave anything to anyone. The pre-IE peoples were essentialy of the same stock both in Europe and Eurasia. The semitic savages chnaged that, turkic savages chnaged it even more.
[quote]i think that by convincing ourselves and others that we are european we are abetting this act of cultural appropriation. [/quote]
Who are these ourselves? We don't want you if you need convincing.
[quote] instead we have to reassert the early foundations of christianity and remind the "western world" of the cultural debt they owe to middle-eastern people. [/quote]
They owe everything to us, since they stole it from us.
[quote]teach them some respect. what western europeans have done over the last 600 years, conquering and exterminating other peoples (native americans, africans, australians, the list goes on) [/quote]
I suppose your savage semitic and turkic brethren weren't exterminating us before that. What goes aorund comes around. Evrything you have around you you owe it to us.
[quote]and even laying waste to countries (iraq) that gave rise to western civilization thousands of years ago, while carrying the banner of christianity, is a disgrace to christianity as a religion.[/quote]
Iraq is an aritfical state that shouldn't even exist. Its people are mongrelized savages worth nothing.
[quote]we have now the u.s., a country of european origins lead by a "born-again christian", having invaded and occupied iraq, the land of ancient mesopotamia, killing tens of thousands of people, and treating their deaths as if they were roadkill.[/quote]
Well they are roadkill.
But that's not the point, America is currently a tool like a fork or an axe, and we're not the ones wielding it for a several decades now.
[quote]americans think they are there to bring "civilization" to iraq, and that they need to teach middle-easterners "western values". [/quote]
America has been hijacked long ago.
[quote]how can they even think that when the earliest signs of a settled human civilization comes from iraq (mesopotamia)? [/quote]
[quote] the earliest of examples of writing come from there. the first law code was written there. agriculture is thought to have started there.
Hamurrabi? Fine, I'll give you that. Cuneiform too. But those people have nothing to do modern middle eastern savages.
[quote]abraham was born there. [/quote]
[quote]she's a greek scholar who won a macarthur genius grant recently for studying the cultural interactions between the byzantines and the arabs. this shows you that the borders between rival civilizations are very much blurred. those of us that inhabit those border areas (as armenians do) are the ones that stand the most to lose from ensconcing ourselves on one side or the other. we should do whatever we need to do to guarantee our security, but be very careful not to surrender our cultural sovereignty to something we are tricked into thinking we belong to. [/quote]
Sounds like jewspeak.
[quote]just as an example, integrating into european stuctures means the imposition of stronger freedom of religion laws in armenia. do we want more baptists and jehovas in our country?[/quote]
We are stronger than that, Greeks haven't allowed it neither shall we.
In conclusion, if you're not European you're not Armenian. Likewise if you're a negro lutheran that speaks German you're not a German. Don't be bitter, this is only natural and there is no escape from it. What's happening now in Armenian society should have happened a century ago or even before like with Hellas but alas there was communism, Genocide etc.