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The Current State Of Ani


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#21 phantom22

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 08:17 PM

OK Gams,

If we should not act European then what?

Like our Iranian buddies? I could understand this under the Shah who was pushing the Persians toward the West. An alliance with Iran is all well and good for geo-political purposes unless Bush and his neo-con crazies invade Iran. If they reinstitute the regime of the Shah perhaps our cultures can cross-fertilate. I am fine with the alliance but I don't want to see Armenia become a proto-Islamic state. How about our Arab neighbors? Should we give lessons in Yerevan in advanced suicide bombing? How about geting some Palestinians to give lessons in culinary arts so that the whole of Armenia can get tomaine poisoning?

Pakistan? Talibanians? How about beheading Armenian Loosavorchagan women who become engaged to Hye Catholics or Pochcagans, al la the Saudi Princess who was executed for getting engaged to a commoner?

Far East Asia? Perhaps. The Japanese have come a long way since they were isolated from the world in the 18th century. Shanghai is becoming a world class city.

Perhaps you will be comfortable if we all became Sufis and joined the Islamic world. Don't think that the Turks would welcome us with open arms. The Kurds are Moslem and that doesn't mean that there is a lovefest between them and the Turks.

OK Gams, if not Europe what? A country that is Islamic in every way but the nominal religion?

Edited by phantom22, 23 August 2005 - 08:19 PM.


#22 Dave

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 08:32 PM

Ethiopia is Christian and it's doing fine in the middle of Islamic countries such as Sudan.

#23 phantom22

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 08:47 PM

Dave,

Ethiopia considers itself part of the African family of nations as opposed to a part of the Islamic world.

Armenia can develop ties with the West while keeping alliances with Russia as insurance (do you remember how many times the Europeans have abandoned us after getting our assistance? - it started with the Crusades).

Edited by phantom22, 23 August 2005 - 10:16 PM.


#24 Dave

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 09:20 PM

The Crusades shows you that Europeans don't care much about Oriental christians. Armenian communities near (but outside) Giligia have often suffered alongside Muslim Arabs at the hands of Crusaders. The Crusades had quite a few ''side effects'' for Giligia...

Do you remember how Germany assisted Ottoman Turkey and did nothing to stop the Armenian Genocide?

Do you remember how the French gave parts of historic Cilicia to Kemalist Turkey, even after Armenians returned there to find their homes?

etc...

Edited by Dave, 23 August 2005 - 09:21 PM.


#25 gamavor

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 10:51 PM

QUOTE
OK Gams,

If we should not act European then what?

Like our Iranian buddies? I could understand this under the Shah who was pushing the Persians toward the West. An alliance with Iran is all well and good for geo-political purposes unless Bush and his neo-con crazies invade Iran. If they reinstitute the regime of the Shah perhaps our cultures can cross-fertilate. I am fine with the alliance but I don't want to see Armenia become a proto-Islamic state. How about our Arab neighbors? Should we give lessons in Yerevan in advanced suicide bombing? How about geting some Palestinians to give lessons in culinary arts so that the whole of Armenia can get tomaine poisoning?


Unlike you I don't see things black and white. You think that if you don't act as "European" than that means that you are "Pro-Muslim". Wrong!

Bosnians, Albanians, Turks are also Europeans or at least soon to be. Are you feeling OK being in such company?

Armenia should aim at being neutral country when it comes to taking sides in global conflicts. The conflict between East and West, South and North won't fade away anytime soon. Neither Europeans nor Islamic countries, not to speak about the axis of evil - USA, Turkey, Israel are (or have ever been) on our side when it comes to defending our own Armenian national interest and don't expect anybody to do so, not now, not tomorrow and not the day after tomorrow. And that is absolutely justified. Everyone should first take care of his own interests before acting on behalf of somebody else.

Europeans will betray your "Christian" ass at the first sight of threat to their interests. Moslems will declare immediately jihad against you as a perennial looser. Russians will bury you once they set foot again in Trabzon, etc..

#26 Arpa

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Posted 24 August 2005 - 01:43 AM

QUOTE (Arvestaked @ Aug 23 2005, 07:22 PM)
This crap pisses me off to no end.


As the conventional wisdom says;
If you want it done right then do it yourself.
We did.
Look at the church in Shushi, the before and the after, look at it now and when it was in disrepair and was being used as an ammunition dump, not to mention a cattle barn.

http://nkr.am/eng/history/shushi.htm

#27 Artaxias

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Posted 24 August 2005 - 09:21 AM

Kumkap please use capitalization. Reading your post was very frustrating in its state.

[quote=kumkap,Aug 23 2005, 04:37 PM]
i hesitate to write this artaxias because i know you blow me out of the water in terms of knowledge of history, etc., but saying that we are european, does this mean we have more in common with say the english, the french, the swedes, than we do with a persian, a lebanese arab, or even a kurd? [/quote]

Yes.

[quote]does this mean we can't jump, suck at basketball, play a boring, dull style of soccer that the brazilians run rings around, can't dance, play music based on nice, neat tempered scales in 4/4 time, [/quote]

What kind of degenerate nonsense is this?

[quote]copy other people's music (mainly blacks), [/quote]

What's black music? Blues ? lol
The instruments were invented by us and so was the music. Earliest forms of such music came from Celtic lands.

[quote]and eat bland, tasteless food. [/quote]

No food on earth can compete with European cuisine. None.

[quote]greeks, bulgarians, serbs is about as far into europe as i care to liken armenians to. [/quote]

Fine. What do I care?

[quote]europe is a well-defined geographical area but "european" is too vague a concept to be meaningful. [/quote]

It's not well defined.

[quote]does it mean way of thinking, food, music, approach to family life, language? [/quote]

All of the above, including race and religion. Race comes first, followed by culture. Both are required. IE: Albanians, Turks, Azeris and Bosniaks are not European neither are Saamis for the most part. On the other hand, the Maltese who speak a guttural filthy semitic tongue are perfectly European as far as i'm concerned as they are loyal and have preserved all their values, in their case the language is irrelevant.

[quote]i see the arguments that armenians are european, [/quote]

Only fools argue about facts.

[quote]but the reality is that historically armenians have born very little resemblence culturally to the people living in the territorial area known as europe. [/quote]

Which "Armenians" are those? The ones from the 5th dimension?

[quote]this is true today too - i do not think armenians living in syria, iran, turkey, iraq, egypt, view themselves as european either. [/quote]

I couldn't care less. If all of them were erased today I wouldn't lose any sleep. Products of rape, I treat them the same way I treat the turkified population of Anatolia.
Luckily this doesn't aplly to all of them. I'd say 1 out 5 can be salvaged.


[quote]they are not cultural hermits in their countries, living in a bubble, they are fully a part of the cultural fabric of the societies they live in.[/quote]

Therefore not Armenian.

[quote]is this all because armenians in those countries have lost their european culture and become islamized? maybe. [/quote]

Yes.

[quote]but at the same time we don't ask to what extent 70 years of soviet rule changed armenian culture. [/quote]

I was expecting this.
It didn't change it. It upgraded it, while the rest of you remained in the past centuries.

[quote]did soviet armenia preserve the anatolian armenian culture that the victims of the genocide belonged to? [/quote]

Yes.

[quote] i find the european armenian convention declaration very bizarre. how far do you have to go back to arrive at a time when armenians were european? [/quote]

When Cilicia fell. First Republic and Soviet reforms were good but more needs to be done to erase several centuries of filth. It's not easy to raise a Phoenix from its ashes. Perhaps a civil war or two...

[quote]armenians living in the u.s., europe, and the russian empire is a recent phenomenon. for the bulk of their history, when not independent armenians lived under roman, persian, byzantine, arab, and turkish empires, all empires of the ancient and modern near eastern world. [/quote]

Did Greeks cease to be European under barbarian occupation?
Were the Spaniards dune coons in the dark ages?

[quote]was king artaxias, living in the second century b.c., a european? [/quote]

Absolutely.

[quote]what about tigran the great, was he a white european from the north conquering the middle east? [/quote]

Sure he was.

[quote]well, certainly they were indo-europeans, but mesopotamian sources say that the babylonians, sumerians, traded with a "people of ararat".[/quote]

They do not say that/ They say Aratta, Aratta is NOT Ararat. We don't know where is Ararat. Currents best guess is either Bahrain or the territory of Elam, Jiroft.

[quote]so did the "people of ararat" have more in common with the ancestors of anglo-saxons let's say, with whom they had no contact at all, than they did with the mesopotamians (ancestors of today's iraqis), who they traded with? [/quote]

I will go ahead and assume you're talking about Biainili now.
1)The ancestors of Angles and Saxons settled in Europe after the retreat of the glaciers, at the end of the last ice age. We call them Upper Paleolithic, or UP peoples. Divived by Borreby and Brünn types. After IE settlements brought other types like Hallstatt the blend is what we have now( Trønder, Fälish etc.) in Northern Europe, well Eurasia back then.

2) Our ancestors are IE's and pre-IE's. Just like those of Greeks, Romans, Celts etc. It's just that our pre-IE's were civilized Minoans, Pelasgians, Hurrians, Etruscans, Iberians (not the Ibero-Celts) etc. All of whom showed both racial and cultural continuity.

3) Mesopotamians influenced us, true but they were influenced by the same pre-IE's such as Sumerians, Hurrians, Elamites etc. And we influenced them again, Phillistines (Achaeans), Luwians etc. A large number of IE words in old semitic tongues attest this.

[quote]so how far do you have to go back? probably by the time you get past all the periods of foreign rule you're at a time when there was nothing going on in europe![/quote]

There is no such time.

[quote]frequently it's pointed out that armenian is an indo-european language. well, so are persian, pashtun, urdu, hindi, and sanskrit. nobody is going around claiming those people are european.[/quote]

Nope. But Ossetians who are also Indo-Aryan are perfectly European.

[quote] armenians are christian? well, christianity is not a european religion. [/quote]

Irrelevant. European Christendom.
Again, a pagan or atheists fingernail means more than all of Ethiopia or Columbia.

[quote]to me, that christianity is identified with europeans is an indication that an act of cultural theft has taken place. [/quote]

Wrong again. European Christendom has been IE and European from day uno.
Christianity in essence is the evolution of our ancient beliefs (trinity).

[quote] read the bible from cover to cover and you will not encounter a single white european in the entire narrative.[/quote]

The old testament is irrelevant.

[quote]not a single event related in the bible takes place in europe. instead the events take place in what is now egypt, iraq, syria, jordan, israel, iran, turkey, etc. [/quote]

All those lands where essentialy ours before the cave dwelling arabs invaded.

[quote]the existence of armenians is a reminder to the world of the true origins of christianity. it was middle eastern civilization that gave rise to the spread of christianity. [/quote]

Wrong. Hellenistic civilization gave rise to Christianity!

[quote]but starting with the crusades and right up to today, western europeans (which includes americans) have shown they have a racialized understanding of christianity. otherwise they would not have slaughtered all those eastern christians. this turns christianity into something like judaism - salvation and sharing in the kingdom of god only for one ethnic or racial group. [/quote]

That's great. Religion must serve race and nation, not the other way around.

[quote]specialists of indo-european linguists who are proponents of the anatolian-farming hypothesis of indo-european origins tell us that all the european languages (with a few exceptions) descend from a single language that was spoken in anatolia thousands of years ago. this means that the languages of the people who were living in what is western europe today were gradually replaced by languages spoken by people originating from anatolia who migrated into europe. it is also thought that these anatolian migrants introduced agriculture into europe, which means that europeans were hunter-gatherers until people from the middle east introduced farming to them. to me, anatolia has much stronger historical and cultural links with mesopotamia, persia, the levant, north africa, etc. than it does with western europe. thus middle easterners in a sense gave europeans their language, agriculture, and their religion. [/quote]

1)Anatolia is not in the middle east.
2)Anatolians had connection with South Western and Eastern Europe but none with so called Middle Easterners.
Middle Easterners never gave anything to anyone. The pre-IE peoples were essentialy of the same stock both in Europe and Eurasia. The semitic savages chnaged that, turkic savages chnaged it even more.

[quote]i think that by convincing ourselves and others that we are european we are abetting this act of cultural appropriation. [/quote]

Who are these ourselves? We don't want you if you need convincing.

[quote] instead we have to reassert the early foundations of christianity and remind the "western world" of the cultural debt they owe to middle-eastern people. [/quote]

They owe everything to us, since they stole it from us.

[quote]teach them some respect. what western europeans have done over the last 600 years, conquering and exterminating other peoples (native americans, africans, australians, the list goes on) [/quote]

I suppose your savage semitic and turkic brethren weren't exterminating us before that. What goes aorund comes around. Evrything you have around you you owe it to us.

[quote]and even laying waste to countries (iraq) that gave rise to western civilization thousands of years ago, while carrying the banner of christianity, is a disgrace to christianity as a religion.[/quote]

Iraq is an aritfical state that shouldn't even exist. Its people are mongrelized savages worth nothing.

[quote]we have now the u.s., a country of european origins lead by a "born-again christian", having invaded and occupied iraq, the land of ancient mesopotamia, killing tens of thousands of people, and treating their deaths as if they were roadkill.[/quote]

Well they are roadkill.
But that's not the point, America is currently a tool like a fork or an axe, and we're not the ones wielding it for a several decades now.

[quote]americans think they are there to bring "civilization" to iraq, and that they need to teach middle-easterners "western values". [/quote]

America has been hijacked long ago.

[quote]how can they even think that when the earliest signs of a settled human civilization comes from iraq (mesopotamia)? [/quote]

That's hogwash.

[quote] the earliest of examples of writing come from there. the first law code was written there. agriculture is thought to have started there.

Hamurrabi? Fine, I'll give you that. Cuneiform too. But those people have nothing to do modern middle eastern savages.

[quote]abraham was born there. [/quote]

hahhaha

[quote]she's a greek scholar who won a macarthur genius grant recently for studying the cultural interactions between the byzantines and the arabs. this shows you that the borders between rival civilizations are very much blurred. those of us that inhabit those border areas (as armenians do) are the ones that stand the most to lose from ensconcing ourselves on one side or the other. we should do whatever we need to do to guarantee our security, but be very careful not to surrender our cultural sovereignty to something we are tricked into thinking we belong to. [/quote]

Sounds like jewspeak.

[quote]just as an example, integrating into european stuctures means the imposition of stronger freedom of religion laws in armenia. do we want more baptists and jehovas in our country?[/quote]

We are stronger than that, Greeks haven't allowed it neither shall we.

In conclusion, if you're not European you're not Armenian. Likewise if you're a negro lutheran that speaks German you're not a German. Don't be bitter, this is only natural and there is no escape from it. What's happening now in Armenian society should have happened a century ago or even before like with Hellas but alas there was communism, Genocide etc.

#28 DominO

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Posted 24 August 2005 - 09:45 AM

Yawn...

#29 Nakharar

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Posted 24 August 2005 - 09:53 AM

QUOTE (QueBeceR @ Aug 24 2005, 12:15 AM)
And now, they'll destroy Aghtamar.  mad.gif


QUOTE (QueBeceR @ Aug 24 2005, 12:06 AM)
Again, I repeat, you have no clue of what you are talking about. The restoration have entirly destroyed and "deleted" rock carvings, proper to Armenian styles. This is a CLEAR attempt, and IS premedited. This has nothing to do with different colorations, it has all to do with a destruction of handmade carving works, and their replacement by simple unstyled rocks. Armenian letters knifed, and yet we have to see if the replacement will entirly remove Armenian letters from the rock, like it has been done elsewhere in the city.

The destruction of Ani was already planned for decades, and during the first years of the Turkish republic, the Turkish delegation had already threatned the allies to destroy the Armenian monuments at Ani if they do not recieve what they wanted.

Their first job was to destroy entire sections, and leave them destroyed by morons and idiots... and then, when the entire section fall down, they bulldose the rest and then cover entire walls of bullshit.


The bad thing about Ani and Akhtamar is that it deflects all attention from the rest of the Armenian monuments left in Turkey. Not that there are hardly any left now. The irony is that the two most symbolic Armenian architectural treasures have become a farce itself and are used as a ploy to hide the complete destruction of Armenian monuments.

#30 kumkap

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Posted 24 August 2005 - 05:27 PM

QUOTE (Artaxias @ Aug 24 2005, 07:21 AM)
What's black music? Blues ? lol

black music is what britney spears, justin timberlake, christina aguilera and all those other spoiled white kids make their riches off of. they're just very good at copying.
QUOTE
The instruments were invented by us and so was the music. Earliest forms of such music came from Celtic lands.

i suppose the first humans appeared in ireland as well.
QUOTE
No food on earth can compete with European cuisine. None.

sure. that's why there's an indian restaurant on every corner in britain. you enjoy your hamburgers and hot dogs and i'll stick to the food my anatolian grandmother makes.
QUOTE
All of the above, including race and religion. Race comes first, followed by culture. Both are required. IE: Albanians, Turks, Azeris and Bosniaks are not European neither are Saamis for the most part. On the other hand, the Maltese who speak a guttural filthy semitic tongue are perfectly European as far as i'm concerned as they are loyal and have preserved all their values, in their case the language is irrelevant.

the maltese language is filthy because it's semitic or because it's guttural? armenian sounds guttural to most english speakers. i've heard some people say it sounds like arabic or persian.
QUOTE
Which "Armenians" are those? The ones from the 5th dimension?

the ones that still speak armenian unlike their distant cousins here in america who have rejoined their long lost european brothers.
QUOTE
I couldn't care less. If all of them [armenians living in the middle east] were erased today I wouldn't lose any sleep. Products of rape, I treat them the same way I treat the turkified population of Anatolia.  Luckily this doesn't aplly to all of them. I'd say 1 out 5 can be salvaged.  Therefore not Armenian.

so what you're really saying is that the genocide was actually a good thing! it got rid of all the impurities in the nordic gene pool of armenians.
QUOTE
It didn't change it. It upgraded it, while the rest of you remained in the past centuries.

now that's a good one. it upgraded it to such an extent that everyone who could leave after '91 became credit card fraudsters, gangbangers driving their fancy cars around their ghetto neighborhoods, and arms smugglers boasting of ties to al qaeda who made neat work destroying the excellent reputation armenian genocide survivors (mostly western armenians) and their progeny built up for all of us in places like boston, detroit, wisconsin, fresno, in the 90 or so years since they first came here.
QUOTE
When Cilicia fell. First Republic and Soviet reforms were good but more needs to be done to erase several centuries of filth. It's not easy to raise a Phoenix from its ashes. Perhaps a civil war or two...

cilician armenians during this period were far closer culturally to greeks, syriacs, copts, etc. (all of whom lived in or contiguous to the islamic world) than they were to western europeans. otherwise why would the crusaders have slaughtered so many eastern christians? it's a serious question, why would christians speaking an indo-european language in constantinople be slaughtered by christians from western europe along their journey to liberate the holy land from the muslims?
QUOTE
Did Greeks cease to be European under barbarian occupation?
Were the Spaniards dune coons in the dark ages?

the barbarian occupation you are talking about was a central asian one, not a middle eastern one. the dark ages in spain was the period before the muslims arrived. spain's most enlightened period intellectually and culturally was under the moors. it was never the same after the christians reconquered it.
QUOTE
They do not say that/ They say Aratta, Aratta is NOT Ararat. We don't know where is Ararat. Currents best guess is either Bahrain or the territory of Elam, Jiroft.

the evidence suggests that the people living around mt. ararat traded with the mesopotamians. for example the mesopotamians traded with them for wine.

Edited by kumkap, 24 August 2005 - 05:47 PM.


#31 kumkap

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Posted 24 August 2005 - 05:28 PM

QUOTE (Artaxias @ Aug 24 2005, 07:21 AM)
I will go ahead and assume you're talking about Biainili now.
1)The ancestors of Angles and Saxons settled in Europe after the retreat of the glaciers, at the end of the last ice age. We call them Upper Paleolithic, or UP peoples. Divived by Borreby and Brünn types. After IE settlements brought other types like Hallstatt the blend is what we have now( Trønder, Fälish etc.) in Northern Europe, well Eurasia back then.

2) Our ancestors are IE's and pre-IE's.  Just like those of Greeks, Romans, Celts etc. It's just that our pre-IE's were civilized Minoans, Pelasgians, Hurrians, Etruscans, Iberians (not the Ibero-Celts) etc. All of whom showed both racial and cultural continuity.

3) Mesopotamians influenced us, true but they were influenced by the same pre-IE's such as Sumerians, Hurrians, Elamites etc. And we influenced them again, Phillistines (Achaeans), Luwians etc. A large number of IE words in old semitic tongues attest this.
There is no such time.
Nope. But Ossetians who are also Indo-Aryan are perfectly European.

still not sure why ossetians are european but persian and indic peoples are not.
QUOTE
Wrong again. European Christendom has been IE and European from day uno.  Christianity in essence is the evolution of our ancient beliefs (trinity).
The old testament is irrelevant.

yes and i have been myself from day one too. we'll pretend that syriac/aramaic wasn't important to the spread of christianity, especially the armenian kind.
QUOTE
All those lands where essentialy ours before the cave dwelling arabs invaded.

your concept of "ours" is a total figment of your imagination. greek is indo-european, syriac is semitic. was there an enormous civilizational divide between those people at the time of jesus, or even later on when the arabs came on the scene between the byzantines and the arabs? nobody was even aware of the existence of an indo-european language family until early last century, let alone the ancient mediterranean world. back then a foreign language was a foreign language, nobody thought about whether it was indo-european or not. arabs interacted with greeks (who interacted with egyptians who interacted with mesopotamians) who interacted with persians who interacted with indians who interacted with chinese etc. etc.
QUOTE
Wrong. Hellenistic civilization gave rise to Christianity!

and i suppose hellenistic civilization dropped out of the sky. god sent the indo-european man down to earth to bring learning and enlightenment to the world.
QUOTE
That's great.  Religion must serve race and nation, not the other way around.

you don't seem to be able to grasp the most basic principle of christianity: it is a universalist religion, which is why it has spread so widely and why the jews hate christians so much. it destroys their monopoly on chosenness. if it only was meant for one race of people, it would cease to be christianity.
QUOTE
1)Anatolia is not in the middle east.

therefore, it is in europe? ah, so you support turkish entry into the e.u.
QUOTE
2)Anatolians had connection with South Western and Eastern Europe but none with so called Middle Easterners.
Middle Easterners never gave anything to anyone.

never say never. what your post shows is that you seem to know a lot about indo-european origins/history but are completely ignorant about other civilizations. and what you are ignorant about you think does not exist.
QUOTE
The pre-IE peoples were essentialy of the same stock both in Europe and Eurasia.

probably true but that's meaningless today. we're not going to travel back in time by creating a single culture among all of today's i.e. speakers. even the turks couldn't do that with their central asian brethren, as much as they tried, after the fall of the soviet union.
QUOTE
Who are these ourselves? We don't want you if you need convincing.

so who's we? did you appoint yourself spokesperson for the armenian culture police?
QUOTE
I suppose your savage semitic and turkic brethren weren't exterminating us before that. What goes aorund comes around. Evrything you have around you you owe it to us.

no quibble from me on your point about turks. but arabs never did anything to us. if all the genocide survivors ended up in europe and the u.s., no one outside armenia would speak armenian. i can see this in my own family: the ones who grew up in the middle east speak armenian, the ones who didn't don't. are you talking about armenia during the arab conquest. i don't think it was any worse than the other periods of foreign rule.

#32 kumkap

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Posted 24 August 2005 - 05:31 PM

QUOTE (Artaxias @ Aug 24 2005, 07:21 AM)
Iraq is an aritfical state that shouldn't even exist. Its people are mongrelized savages worth nothing.

iraqis are mongrelized but americans and pretty much everyone else in the world is not? you just showed a very disturbing side of yourself. maybe you should sign up for the u.s. military or israeli defense forces. kill 'em all, as they say. maybe you can push the button when they decide to nuke the middle east. but oops, armenia is only a few hundred kilometers from iraq!
QUOTE
But that's not the point, America is currently a tool like a fork or an axe, and we're not the ones wielding it for a several decades now.

yeah, and it's not the arabs wielding it, it's the wannabe semites.
QUOTE
Sounds like jewspeak.

i don't get this one. what's jewspeak about showing that byzantines and arabs culturally interacted with eachother? jewspeak is most of what you've said so far about arabs. you sound like daniel pipes or bernard lewis. do you want them to go after iran and syria too? that would be great for armenia, wouldn't it?
QUOTE
We are stronger than that, Greeks haven't allowed it neither shall we.

i wouldn't be so sure. armenians sure like leaving armenia, and they sure like the new religions from the west that help them get out of doing military service, don't they.

#33 DominO

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Posted 24 August 2005 - 05:43 PM

The Current State Of Ani

#34 skhara

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Posted 24 August 2005 - 07:07 PM

This exchange between Artaxias and kumkamp shows the very real and obvious cultural divide between people who identify themselves as Armenians. I sometimes wonder if it would be better for all these peoples to split in to their own various nationalities to avoid confusion. How much do bunches of these people really have in common with each other?

kumkamp, you described what "Europe" means to you. Well let me tell you what "Middle East" means to me:

It means brown people on camels with rags on their heads waving curved half-moon shaped swords while cutting off heads and yelling Allah-Akbar. I have no self-identity with the Middle East. The Caucasus, sure, not Middle East.

And you brought up the Persians/Iranians. Yes we certainly have ties with them. Ties that were much closer before the Islamisation of Iran. Ties that likely would be of mutual solidarity today if Persia never became Islamisized. And you can bet that even Persia, not to mention Armenia, had more in common with the Greko-Roman world (my defenition of Europe) then with desert dwelling bedoiuns who's defenition of "honor" is looting.

Just to confirm that. Think of the cataphract for a minute. There was the Persian cataphract. There was the Armenian cataphract. And there was the Greek-Byzantine cataphract. All were very similar to each other. And the cataphract was much more similar to the European knight. All were warriors covered in armor (not rags), riding an armoured horse (not camel).

Edited by skhara, 24 August 2005 - 07:08 PM.


#35 gamavor

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Posted 24 August 2005 - 07:11 PM

QUOTE (Dave @ Aug 23 2005, 05:12 PM)
Then why should we associate ourselves with these ''Europeans''?


The idea is not new. During the Cold War, the Soviet Union was in charge of establishing some kind of Christian Orthodox - Moderate Moslems union in the sphere of culture, global politics and economy. That way Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Egypt, Lybia and some other moderate moslem but hardline marxist countries were brought under the Soviet umbrella.

After the collapse of the Soviet Union the need for re-vitalizing such union was felt again as a counter balance of power against Jewish-Protestant alience. The Eastern Orthodox church of Antioch (the most ancient Orthodox church) in the past few years started to revisit the idea and attempts to bring together the 'old friends' were made on several occassions. If cleaned of all ideological crap I think it is a good Idea.

#36 gamavor

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Posted 24 August 2005 - 08:22 PM

QUOTE
And you can bet that even Persia, not to mention Armenia, had more in common with the Greko-Roman world (my defenition of Europe)


Exactly my definition of Europe too!!!

Plus, Evropa (Europa) was a mythological daughter of a Phoenician king, just south east of Mittani and straight line south of Vaspurakan in Western Armenia.

So, how European Europa is???

Cheers Skhara! smile.gif

#37 Dave

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Posted 24 August 2005 - 08:27 PM

QUOTE
It means brown people on camels with rags on their heads waving curved half-moon shaped swords while cutting off heads and yelling Allah-Akbar. I have no self-identity with the Middle East. The Caucasus, sure, not Middle East.


Well that's just a funny anachronistic generalization. smile.gif

http://skyscraperpag...bu_dhabi_01.jpg
http://homepage.mac....bai_skyline.jpg

Does this city come to your mind? Believe it or not, it's Abu Dhabi, a city in the Arabian peninsula.


Only our ennemies would benefit from these disputes. mad.gif

Edited by Dave, 24 August 2005 - 08:28 PM.


#38 skhara

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Posted 24 August 2005 - 08:52 PM

QUOTE (Dave @ Aug 24 2005, 08:27 PM)
Well that's just a funny anachronistic generalization.  smile.gif


Of coarse it is a generalization Dave, but I countered the same kind of generalization by kumkamp of what Europe ment to him.

QUOTE
Only our ennemies would benefit from these disputes.


These disputes would not exist in the first place if historical cirmustances did not create them. We can't snap our fingers, or build a time machine to change history as of yet.

#39 Artaxias

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Posted 24 August 2005 - 10:06 PM

Of course our enemies will and are benefiting from this. That doesn't mean we have to ignore these issues. It's a perfectly natural internal problem that would have never existed were it not for the various unfortunate historical events as shkara said in his wisdom. Sooner we face this the sooner there will be relative unity, which will lead to progress and prosperity.

kumkap, I will respond tomorrow. Very tired now after gym. I do understand where you're coming from and how you ended up believing in the things you do, as false and delusional as they may be.

#40 Nakharar

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Posted 25 August 2005 - 04:30 AM

Europe does not exist. Or a "European" identity. It is an illusion that some Eurocrats are desperate to sell.

Some of us seem to forget that Europe was referred to as Christendom until the 100 Year wars. The only common denominator the continent has is Christianity or the remnants of Christian culture.




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