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How about the Oscars?


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#21 MJ

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Posted 04 April 2003 - 08:11 AM

No, not better. What I expected, though.

First of all, most of these "facts" tell no story to the reader and some are simply false.

Additionally, so that to provide some credibility to the presumed argument, I think you should also reference such lines as what in the last several decades the foreign policies of Soviet Union/Russia, Germany, UK, France, China, North Korea, Iraq, Iran, Israel, Pakistan, India, etc, have done. Perhaps, then, in that large picture of things, we can really understand what the US foreign policy has done.

P.S. I can guarantee you that I have no interest to go on and on, on the topic, either. I always force myself to speak out - when I feel enough is enough.

Btw, I appreciate the work that you are doing for Armenia. Therefore, would not like to "cross my sword with you," as disagreeable as I find your conceptual world on broader issues.

[ April 04, 2003, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: MJ ]

#22 River

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Posted 05 April 2003 - 08:24 AM

The Oscars
Hi there, this is my first time on this forum which i find very interesting and interactive, to say the least.
I could not help to reply to this topic. I refused to watch the Oscars. It was out of place and insensitive to carry on something as glamorous (less pizazz this year) and celebratory . So many people were being bombarded , so many people's lives were endangered - both sides- civilians, invaders, tyrants etc. Or may be some people wanted us to watch this event rather than that event- is life so superficial and does Hollywood condition our tastes and attitudes ?
Another bone of contention is Roman Polanski - a sociopath or a psychopath- being credited for a topic which will some day run out of resources and steam. From the very onset, the stage was played to oust any hope for Egoyan's ARARAT to 'be there'. No effort was spared to push away Egoyan. Surely, a new topic, another nationality and its grief could find a place there..... Sometimes provisions are made to comply to such situations.
As for Michael Moore, perhaps he was too 'loud' but somebody has to voice what a lot of people think and feel but do not express themselves out of fear .

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Posted 05 April 2003 - 09:30 AM

quote:
Originally posted by River:
The Oscars
Hi there, this is my first time on this forum which i find very interesting and interactive, to say the least.
I could not help to reply to this topic. I refused to watch the Oscars. It was out of place and insensitive to carry on something as glamorous (less pizazz this year) and celebratory . So many people were being bombarded , so many people's lives were endangered - both sides- civilians, invaders, tyrants etc. Or may be some people wanted us to watch this event rather than that event- is life so superficial and does Hollywood condition our tastes and attitudes ?
Another bone of contention is Roman Polanski - a sociopath or a psychopath- being credited for a topic which will some day run out of resources and steam. From the very onset, the stage was played to oust any hope for Egoyan's ARARAT to 'be there'. No effort was spared to push away Egoyan. Surely, a new topic, another nationality and its grief could find a place there..... Sometimes provisions are made to comply to such situations.
As for Michael Moore, perhaps he was too 'loud' but somebody has to voice what a lot of people think and feel but do not express themselves out of fear .

I agree with you River, I watched Roman Polanski's movie, and it was not extraordinary to the sens that it was nothing new, the same old fashion movie about someone during the Holocaust, while Ararat was inovator, both intellectually and artistically, it was of no match. It appears to me that every movie concerning the Holocaust will win Oscars, no matter of if they worth the prize or not. More then this, "The Pianist"is an adaptation of a book, and the production is not as near difficult as the way Ararat has been directed and all those scenes that sound irrelevent and disconnected with each others are put together. Thats the kind of movie, that should recieve prizes. The Music of Ararat was even not selected, a Music no worst then those that in the past worthed Oscars.

[ April 05, 2003, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: Domino ]

#24 River

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Posted 05 April 2003 - 01:19 PM

I'm in total agreement with you. Egoyan has always been praised in the Canadian media, at least consistently, except for ARARAT - where one critic went as far as calling Egoyan's 'brilliant failure'...sure, sure . Even at the Genie Awards (sp.), which i watched on STAR TV there was an implication , by the female interviewer, that what's inside the envelope was already pre-arranged. Hah ! like nothing of the sort happens anywhere else...The audacity of it all. And of course the best director award went to Kronenberg and not to Atom. I remember, a few years back, here in the Canadian media, Atom had a nomination for ? film, i don't remember, they were commenting that the director of the TITANIC should sweep the floor and Egoyan should pull back his nomination. I'm sure there are many artists who deserve to receive the Oscars but do not meet the criteria.
Egoyan was awarded on a tribute night dedicated to him last thursday, in Montreal- by his own community. What a talented couple they are. We should not forget Arsine, his wife.
Cheers !

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Posted 05 April 2003 - 05:12 PM

Cronenberg was given the award of best direction, because his film was of no match with Ararat, and that Telefilm Canada should have found the justification for having pied the millions for his "Spider" and ending up that the film would not have any nomination at all, all that was predicted from the start, everyone knew at Telefilm Canada that Cronenberg was to have the best direction, because of the last time, Egoyan got it, and that they are in a competition for many years, and Spider was not the film expected. So they just gave the best direction to Cronenberg, and everyone has happy, that is done here in Canada for many, many and many years. Our film industry is very small compared with the US, and we should support as much people as possible with the limited telefilm Canada grants for as much production as possible.

Just take a look at the number of nominations Ararat had, it had 9 nominations, how do you explain that a film that got most of the nominations, it had no nomination for the best direction, when the direction is about putting all those pieces together ? They just took off Egoyan from the list of nominations for the best director, because there should not have been any competition again between Cronenberg and Egoyan.

#26 River

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Posted 06 April 2003 - 12:19 PM

Cronenberg was given the award of best direction, because his film was of no match with Ararat, and that Telefilm Canada should have found the justification for having pied the millions for his "Spider" and ending up that the film would not have any nomination at all, all that was predicted from the start, everyone knew at Telefilm Canada that Cronenberg was to have the best direction, because of the last time, Egoyan got it, and that they are in a competition for many years, and Spider was not the film expected. So they just gave the best direction to Cronenberg, and everyone has happy, that is done here in Canada for many, many and many years. Our film industry is very small compared with the US, and we should support as much people as possible with the limited telefilm Canada grants for as much production as possible.

Just take a look at the number of nominations Ararat had, it had 9 nominations, how do you explain that a film that got most of the nominations, it had no nomination for the best direction, when the direction is about putting all those pieces together ? They just took off Egoyan from the list of nominations for the best director, because there should not have been any competition again between Cronenberg and Egoyan.

Ararat......how do you explain that a film that got most of the nominations...had no nomination for the best direction, when the direction is about putting all those pieces together? .........there should not have been any competition between Cronenberg and Egoyan.....
Voila. Hasn't there been any situations, irrespective of previous Oscars/Genie awards where one particular director 'sweeps the floor' ? And they come back again and again and 'carry home' the best directorship ?
Yes, Telefilm Canada had to justify its grant to Cronenberg. Probably, Egoyan was left out , this time, because the issue was turned into politics- before the awards. Who knows what goes on behind closed doors ?

#27 Cilician

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Posted 07 April 2003 - 08:03 AM

...would not like to "cross my sword with you," as disagreeable as I find your conceptual world on broader issues.

Oftentimes it's best to agree to disagree. :-)

#28 Cilician

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Posted 07 April 2003 - 08:19 AM

I'm in total agreement with you. Egoyan has always been praised in the Canadian media, at least consistently, except for ARARAT - where one critic went as far as calling Egoyan's 'brilliant failure'...sure, sure .

I agree too, I think that many of the reviews were embarassingly (to their writers) ignorant. I think that a big reason that this movie did not get great reviews across the board is precisely because the Armenian Genocide is so obscure today, unlike the Holocaust. If you understand what happened during the genocide, and you understand who Gorky was, then the movie is not at all confusing or hard to follow. So for example a movie about Ann Frank would start off with a huge advantage. There is no need to explain the holocaust, or Ann Frank, or holocaust denial or assimilation/life in America so many years later. That gives anything having to do with the holocaust a major advantage, but as was said, only makes Egoyan's feat much more impressive. People go in with too many preconceptions about what the movie is about and too little background. One Armenian wrote on imdb.com that he thought it was a "horrible documentary". Who the hell told him it was a documentary??!?!

Eh, anyway, one day the very easy to grasp 40 days of Musa Dagh will be made in the style of Braveheart for all the simple minded folks who will finally be happy. :-)

#29 River

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Posted 07 April 2003 - 10:32 AM

The reason that the Armenian Genocide 'is obscure...unlike the Holocaust' is because of several forces working against us- namely, the Turkish policy of denial, the Jewish / Israeli lobby etc. We have not infiltrated everywhere to make sure nobody utters a word against the Armenian Genocide, have we ? I live in Montreal where the Armenian lobby is quite strong- thanks to the Frech/Quebecois empathy. But on a higher level, like the Federal government we still have resistance from certain quarters and reluctance to recognize it nationally. Throughout the year whether it be on radio, TV, film industry we are constantly and consistently reminded of the Holocaust. No breather. As for the Armenians to produce something about our tragedy takes one or two dedicated, gifted members to accomplish it. The gap between productions is too wide; by the time the next work is ready to be presented to the public we've lost the touch and the communication has disappeared into the ether....It takes a monumental effort for a project to transpire and it's usually through the persistence of the person with that goal/vision in his mind.

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Posted 07 April 2003 - 11:06 AM

The reason that the Armenian Genocide 'is obscure...unlike the Holocaust' is because of several forces working against us- namely, the Turkish policy of denial, the Jewish / Israeli lobby  etc.  We have not infiltrated everywhere to make sure nobody utters a word against the Armenian Genocide, have we ?  I live in Montreal where the Armenian lobby is quite strong- thanks to the Frech/Quebecois empathy.  But on a higher level, like the Federal government we still have resistance from certain quarters and reluctance to recognize it nationally.  Throughout the year whether it be on radio, TV, film industry we are constantly and consistently reminded of the Holocaust.  No breather.  As for the Armenians to produce something about our tragedy takes one or two dedicated, gifted members to accomplish it.  The gap between productions is too wide; by the time the next work is ready to be presented  to the public we've lost the touch and the communication has disappeared into the ether....It takes a monumental effort for a project to transpire and it's usually through the persistence of the person with that goal/vision in his mind.

You are right, the proof even lies on Egoyans Ararat, Egoyan was first planning to make a movie on the "40 days of Musa Dagh" but he was dealing with a situation that no any director deciding to do a movie about the Holocaust will ever deal. Egoyan had to bring this to two levels, the first one on the history of the genocide, and he second, the present situation, in my opinion Ararat is not more complex then it was possible to make it, its complexity comes from the subject and the problem we face. Egoyan just decided to make a movie about the problem we face, and that is what it brough. I am sure that his other idea about the epic of Musa Dagh would have made the critics more positif, and no, I do not think it was the money that was lacking, the last numbers I look at, tells me that Ararat has not costed all the 15 million that was gatered for its production, it was more like 11 million, and Telefilm Canada with Egoyans production compagny could have found 5 million, it already happened before for other Canadian movies. The found rased for the movie would have been 20 million, about 2 times the 11 million the film costed. But that is not the point, the point is that in our situation, a film about the genocide should touch two levels, not only the genocide but its denial, the film is about the denial, everyone in the film had something to deny, if Egoyan wanted to be honnest with himself, he should have produced a film that would touch every front. And thats what he did.

With the Holocaust, it is different, the only great movie I saw about the Holocaust was "La vita e bella" the rest, including Shindler list for me were nothing more then a typical film about the 40's, nothing special for me. But they worth Oscars, if you wan't an Oscar, just make a film about the Holocaust and pay tens of millions dollars. That would work for the Armenian genocide, of course for the Oscars, but a film that would cost tens of millions dollars, first there is not a chance to find that amount, second, if we could, the film will be a lost for the compagnies that will invest on it. Ararat was a test, and we have seen that will be the cases, we claim we want films about the Armenian genocide, and when we have a film that discuss about the topic, we criticise it and ask for more, the film have even not reached 2 million in North America, there is 1 million Armenians in North America, what is the proportion of Armenians that decided to go see the movie. Before crying that no one want to hear us, maybe we should before crying that we don't even want to hear ourself.

Until then, there will be more films about the Holocaust, and there will be more Oscars for those films, because those Jews support each others, at least they go see their movies. When on the other hand, we can never be satisfied with what we have in our hand to start with.

I won't be surprised that the Juries for the Oscars, had even not the sound track of Ararat movie. If they hated the film, there was no justification that a music that worthed to be selected for an Oscar was not there.

Edited by Fadi, 07 April 2003 - 11:09 AM.


#31 River

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Posted 07 April 2003 - 04:59 PM

You know in Montreal we had buses driving to and fro to help people to have the chance to go and watch ARARAT. For quite a few people it was incomprehensible. Egoyan's art is not for everybody. However, no effort was spared to have full attendance at the 2 theaters.
You are correct not everybody went to watch it for reasons of their own- i'm sure.
Yes, the Jews support one another as they have a major goal. The Armenians , in my humble opinion, have developed an apathy towards their cause, their organisations and the forthcoming youth is influenced by this attitude. On one hand we aspire to achieve recognition and yearn for compensation and on the other hand we do not put the proper effort. Sporadic attempts are made and enormous pressure is dumped on the very few who work. Furthermore, there is a lack of preparedness to go the extra mile. I digress. Sorry.
The Oscars is another matter. Should i go as far as stating that if you do not belong to a particular ethnic group you cannot pass the threshold....Under no circumstances ARARAT is to be mentioned since it would validate what some people would rather be forgotten.

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Posted 07 April 2003 - 05:55 PM

You know in Montreal we had buses driving to and fro to help people to have the chance to go and watch ARARAT. For quite a few people it was incomprehensible. Egoyan's art is not for everybody. However, no effort was spared to have full attendance at the 2 theaters.
You are correct not everybody went to watch it for reasons of their own- i'm sure.
Yes, the Jews support one another as they have a major goal. The Armenians , in my humble opinion, have developed an apathy towards their cause, their organisations and the forthcoming youth is influenced by this attitude. On one hand we aspire to achieve recognition and yearn for compensation and on the other hand we do not put the proper effort. Sporadic attempts are made and enormous pressure is dumped on the very few who work. Furthermore, there is a lack of preparedness to go the extra mile. I digress. Sorry.
The Oscars is another matter. Should i go as far as stating that if you do not belong to a particular ethnic group you cannot pass the threshold....Under no circumstances ARARAT is to be mentioned since it would validate what some people would rather be forgotten.

You are right River, I know, I am from your community as well(Montreal), how many teens you heard that on the theatre they were bored and were nearly sleeping ? They were telling how they were bored, or others were just telling they loved the movie just to be in, when when they were watching it, from their face you knew that what they were waiting was to go out and go to the next theatre where Harry Potter or Lord of the rings was playing. I may be biased of course, but I was eating that film from the start to the end, when I first saw it, it was like a dream, unreal, I was not believing that I was on that theatre waiting that those publicities end and the movie start, a movie that I was waiting for years, starting with the plan of Egoyan to make a movie about Musa Dagh until his changing of subject, the workout etc...

I have nothing against those critics that tell they did not like the movie, what I have against is those that claim to know that Egoyan was not able to tell what he wanted, when in the first place they had no clue of what he tried to tell. You know, I saw everyone of his films, this film in my sense was not more difficult then the difficult puzzle of Exotica that the critics were more in favour then Ararat. The critics are more about what they wanted, they expected as movie, not about the film itself, in order to understand if the film was telling what Egoyan wanted, they should have known first what he tried to tell.

As I type I have the sound track facing me, and I have listened the sound track of all the musics nominated, I am of course biased, but the research done on that music and the product at the very least worthed to be nominated. I took that soundtrack and decided to make it listen to non-Armenians, they found that music just expetional, only from the music they all though the film was tens of millions of dollar production.

As for the ethnicity, yes and no, some subjects are in and some other out, it will be possible with millions to do a very big epic movie, and have Oscars, but it won't generate any profit.

You know, suppose that 500,000 Armenians were to go see the movie in north America, and suppose that each ticket would cost 7 $, it would have generated 3.5 million. Whwn what it did best was less then 2 million.

#33 Azat

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Posted 07 April 2003 - 06:17 PM

Domino, That's because there are only 4 or 5 hundred Armenians in Glendale. Everyone else is here to milk the country.

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Posted 07 April 2003 - 06:45 PM

Domino, That's because there are only 4 or 5 hundred Armenians in Glendale. Everyone else is here to milk the country.

In France it was even worst, there was theatres that were nearly compleatly empty in the first week when the film was released there.

#35 River

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Posted 08 April 2003 - 09:47 AM

May i just bring one point to your attention. For the Jews the Holocaust is supreme ! We have one Jewish friend to whom we asked why do you keep on talking about it so much ? He said so that " we never forget it". Let me tell you that for us the Genocide is a sore point. Many of us want to 'forget it' - not me since i try to remind my kids of what has happened and what my aunt and grandfather have gone through...they talk about it at school to their non-Armenian friends, teachers etc. They plan to go to Ottawa on the 24th ! But, a lot of kids have got this apathy- yes, as you observed they are "bored" with the subject matter. Their priorities are elsewhere.
One non-Armenian friend of mine said to me that for us to be accepted and our cause to be considered as commonplace we have to create a "face"- so that the lay person will be able to recognize or identify that face with the Armenian Genocide. I think Egoyan achieved that to a certain extent, i stand to be corrected, but i've been avoiding to state that the Armenian Cause is always nipped at its bud. The Jews and the Turks DO NOT WISH US TO BE THERE IN THE LIMELIGHT ! Forget it that we did not support it properly- i'm sure a lot of movies that lacked the standard of good subject matter, artistry or whatever DID make it to the Oscars anyway......and took it home.

#36 River

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Posted 08 April 2003 - 07:05 PM

Domino, I don't know what happened to my reply . I just don't want you to think i'm ignoring your comments. I have to remember the exact wording because i did write an answer but it's not going to be my original answer.
Anyways, it looks like a new and more current topic is added now.

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Posted 08 April 2003 - 07:10 PM

Domino, I don't know what happened to my reply . I just don't want you to think i'm ignoring your comments. I have to remember the exact wording because i did write an answer but it's not going to be my original answer.
Anyways, it looks like a new and more current topic is added now.

Rever, it may be that you did like me, you pressed on report that post rather then reply. :) I don't feel ignored, take your time, no worry. :)

#38 River

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 02:55 PM

Hi, i found out today that the post i'm talking about does in fact exist. It's the one preceeding your response.
Anyway, i don't think i have anything to add to the Oscars - it is passe by now- not the Armenian issue though !
Cheers.




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