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Four London Blasts Kill 40, Injure 700


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#41 Sip

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Posted 11 July 2005 - 03:50 AM

QUOTE (theguywhosavedtheuniverse @ Jul 11 2005, 02:31 AM)
They would look like an Arab or a Paki.


Or an Armenian, or a Turk, or a Lebanese, or a Jew, or an Italian, or an Egyptian, or a Greek, or a Persian, or an Afghani, or an Iraqi, (should I keep going?)

If you really think you can distinguish one of "them" by looks from say a typical Armenian from Iran, then I say I hope you're not in charge of any kind of security because you'll fail miserably.

#42 vava

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Posted 11 July 2005 - 05:31 AM

QUOTE (theguywhosavedtheuniverse @ Jul 11 2005, 03:31 AM)
Wow... that is the dumbest thing I've heard. They would look like an Arab or a Paki.  Of all places you'd notice them in a clountry ike England, where most of the indegenous people are whiter than snowflakes.


Obviously someone has never been to London.

#43 Sip

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Posted 11 July 2005 - 01:28 PM

QUOTE (vava @ Jul 11 2005, 05:31 AM)
Obviously someone has never been to London.


... or anywhere else in Europe biggrin.gif

#44 theguywhosavedtheuniverse

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Posted 11 July 2005 - 06:19 PM

QUOTE (Sip @ Jul 11 2005, 01:50 AM)
Or an Armenian, or a Turk, or a Lebanese, or a Jew, or an Italian, or an Egyptian, or a Greek, or a Persian, or an Afghani, or an Iraqi, (should I keep going?)

If you really think you can distinguish one of "them" by looks from say a typical Armenian from Iran, then I say I hope you're not in charge of any kind of security because you'll fail miserably.



I said "Arab". Smart idea making your list longer by naming all the sub groups.

And that was not what the original message was about. He said that the enemy "had no country" or did not look a certain way. All of these terrorists come from Islamic countries and most of them have certain distinguishable features that seperate them from the rest of the First World.

#45 theguywhosavedtheuniverse

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Posted 11 July 2005 - 06:20 PM

QUOTE (vava @ Jul 11 2005, 03:31 AM)
Obviously someone has never been to London.


Do you know what the word "indigenous" means?

#46 theguywhosavedtheuniverse

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Posted 11 July 2005 - 06:22 PM

QUOTE (Sip @ Jul 11 2005, 11:28 AM)
... or anywhere else in Europe  biggrin.gif


I was born in France. biggrin.gif

#47 vava

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Posted 11 July 2005 - 08:56 PM

Well in that case I'll spell it out for you:

If you've been to large cities (such as london, or paris etc.) you'll surely have noticed the large number of 'arab' or 'islamist' looking people that make up a significant group of it's citizens. (The fact that the 'indigenous' population looks a certain way is largely irrelevant.)

The vast majority of those who look like their 'islamists', may not even be muslims, much less, islamic fundamentalists. "An enemy we can't see" is exactly right - terrorists may be anybody, and as soon as you start screening potential criminals by their racial backgrounds and what they look like, it will become a slippery slope.

Ultimately, with racial profiling, we're going to suffer - like it or not, most Armenians are part of visible minority.

#48 vava

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Posted 11 July 2005 - 08:57 PM

and welcome to HF smile.gif

#49 armjan

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Posted 11 July 2005 - 08:59 PM

how did theguywhosavedtheuniverse indeed save the universe?

more importantly, from who?

Did you see something worth saving?

Edited by armjan, 11 July 2005 - 09:47 PM.


#50 theguywhosavedtheuniverse

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Posted 11 July 2005 - 09:48 PM

QUOTE (vava @ Jul 11 2005, 06:56 PM)
Well in that case I'll spell it out for you:

If you've been to large cities (such as london, or paris etc.) you'll surely have noticed the large number of 'arab' or 'islamist' looking people that make up a significant group of it's citizens. (The fact that the 'indigenous' population looks a certain way is largely irrelevant.)

The vast majority of those who look like their 'islamists', may not even be muslims, much less, islamic fundamentalists. "An enemy we can't see" is exactly right - terrorists may be anybody, and as soon as you start screening potential criminals by their racial backgrounds and what they look like, it will become a slippery slope.

Ultimately, with racial profiling, we're going to suffer - like it or not, most Armenians are part of visible minority.


You are going in a more PC direction than I am. The point is that modern day international terrorists are almost all Arab, South Asian, North African. So of course if Terrorists hijack a plane somewhere in Europe or America you are going to focus the investigation on the people that have links to those parts of world.

The terrorist "can" be anybody, but in all probability it won't be your gay German Barber. It''ll probably be a Muhammed Hassan, or Ahmed Hussien. Of course it'll be a slippery slope to screen them by race, but it is worth it if it saves the lives of scores of innocent people.

#51 skhara

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Posted 11 July 2005 - 11:01 PM

Have you guys heard of recruiting of 'white' Al-Qaeda?

Basically going after Bosnians, Chechens, and Albanians as the recruits?

#52 Sip

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Posted 11 July 2005 - 11:37 PM

QUOTE (theguywhosavedtheuniverse @ Jul 11 2005, 06:19 PM)
I said "Arab". Smart idea making your list longer by naming all the sub groups.


I didn't know "Armenians", "Greeks", "Jews", and "Italians" were Arab subgroups. huh.gif But even those sub groups, have countries of their own which further supports the point that these terrorists don't have a "country" of their own as Edward was saying. An "Arab" or "Paki", the way you are using it doesn't signify a country either so I don't know what your point is.

An article which may be of interest to you is here. Also, I don't know what you consider "paki" and "arab" features but towls on heads can easily be removed and large beards shaved.

An Arab person could shave one day, let it grow for 3 days, wear a shirt with open buttons on the top and a big cross, addidas pants and slippers and I guarantee you won't be able to distinguish him from a "Rabiz" 7 out of 10. biggrin.gif

Edited by Sip, 11 July 2005 - 11:38 PM.


#53 armjan

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Posted 12 July 2005 - 12:08 AM

QUOTE (Sip @ Jul 11 2005, 09:37 PM)
An Arab person could shave one day, let it grow for 3 days, wear a shirt with open buttons on the top and a big cross, addidas pants and slippers and I guarantee you won't be able to distinguish him from a "Rabiz" 7 out of 10.  biggrin.gif

sure you can,
ask a complete stranger to go up to this potential rabiz "guy" and call him A-Z-I-Z.
if all hell breaks loose, then u'll know!

Edited by armjan, 12 July 2005 - 12:08 AM.


#54 armjan

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Posted 12 July 2005 - 12:09 AM

QUOTE (theguywhosavedtheuniverse @ Jul 11 2005, 07:48 PM)
You are going in a more PC direction than I am. The point is that modern day international terrorists are almost all Arab, South Asian, North African.  So of course if Terrorists hijack a plane somewhere in Europe or America you are going to focus the investigation on the people that have links to those parts of world.

The terrorist "can" be anybody, but in all probability it won't be your gay German Barber.  It''ll probably be a Muhammed Hassan, or Ahmed Hussien.  Of course it'll be a slippery slope to screen them by race, but it is worth it if it saves the lives of scores of innocent people.

i share your view on this one.

the consipritors can make up all the hypothesis they want, but one needs to follow the evidence.
it's all about idealogies.
not which one is better in general, but which one is better for you & your interests.
Think very hard about any activity that you do on any day, the end consumer of those thoughts/actions/feelings is YOU.
forget trying to find this peaceful sorry state of existence, there will always be conflict.

will you leave your child hungry to feed someone else?
the answer to most rational ppl not in denail is NO, so leave your peaceful state of affairs to the sixth grade class that taught you tolerance.

choose your side and make sure it wins.
everything else is as already mentioned "intellectual masturbation".

Edited by armjan, 12 July 2005 - 12:24 AM.


#55 Sip

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Posted 12 July 2005 - 12:18 AM

QUOTE (armjan @ Jul 12 2005, 12:08 AM)
call him A-Z-I-Z.


lol.gif

#56 theguywhosavedtheuniverse

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Posted 12 July 2005 - 01:25 AM

QUOTE (Sip @ Jul 11 2005, 09:37 PM)
I didn't know "Armenians", "Greeks", "Jews", and "Italians" were Arab subgroups.  huh.gif But even those sub groups, have countries of their own which further supports the point that these terrorists don't have a "country" of their own as Edward was saying. An "Arab" or "Paki", the way you are using it doesn't signify a country either so I don't know what your point is.

An article which may be of interest to you is here.  Also, I don't know what you consider "paki" and "arab" features but towls on heads can easily be removed and large beards shaved.

An Arab person could shave one day, let it grow for 3 days, wear a shirt with open buttons on the top and a big cross, addidas pants and slippers and I guarantee you won't be able to distinguish him from a "Rabiz" 7 out of 10.  biggrin.gif


Quit being naive. When I said Arab subgroups I meant Lebanon, Egypt, and Iraq. Please tell me your joking when you think Greeks and Italians are similar in appearance to Semites and S. Asians. Anyone with half a brain could tell they are not semites or Southern Asians.

And I said physical features! Not clothing.

#57 Sip

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Posted 12 July 2005 - 02:44 AM

QUOTE (theguywhosavedtheuniverse @ Jul 12 2005, 01:25 AM)
Anyone with half a brain could tell they are not semites or Southern Asians. 


Yes, but most people have full brains. It's thinking like that that gets Armenia classified as a "terrorist" state by mistake. huh.gif

You have to try to be a LOT smarter about this new enemy than just looking for a bunch of arabs. It's the same kind of mentality that had 7-11 attendants being harassed or shot after 9/11 since they looked like those camel riding arabs.

Interestingly enough, I was asked 2 questions when we moved to Germany:

1. Are you turkish?

To which I answered no, I am Armenian from Iran. And then came the inevitable ...

2. Did you own camels.

And of course I had never even seen a camel before in real life. But it is understandable as they simply didn't know. Heck I thought they would be walking around without bending their knees and shouting in stern voices while talking which of course was as far from reality as one could get. But I did grow up watching world war II movies just as they had associated "middle east" with camel riding arabs that all look alike.

#58 vava

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Posted 12 July 2005 - 07:48 AM

QUOTE (theguywhosavedtheuniverse @ Jul 11 2005, 10:48 PM)
You are going in a more PC direction than I am. ....

The terrorist "can" be anybody, but in all probability it won't be your gay German Barber.  It''ll probably be a Muhammed Hassan, or Ahmed Hussien.  Of course it'll be a slippery slope to screen them by race, but it is worth it if it saves the lives of scores of innocent people.


Sorry - I disagree. It has nothing to do with going 'PC'. It has more to do with individual civil liberties. Using your logic, anyone with 'ties' to an arabic, or islamic country becomes a terrorist suspect. That's plain wrong - and besides, there's not enough room at Guantanamo to put them all.

#59 vava

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Posted 12 July 2005 - 07:55 AM

QUOTE (armjan @ Jul 12 2005, 01:09 AM)
i share your view on this one.

....
forget trying to find this peaceful sorry state of existence, there will always be conflict.

will you leave your child hungry to feed someone else?
the answer to most rational ppl not in denail is NO, so leave your peaceful state of affairs to the sixth grade class that taught you tolerance.

choose your side and make sure it wins.
everything else is as already mentioned "intellectual masturbation".


Cynical view IMO - but I don't think we're talking about the same thing.
UniverseSaver is claiming that trampling the individual rights of those who 'may look like' terrorists is ok, as long as you do it to 'prevent' more terrorism. My POV is that repressing and/or antagonising an entire demographic based on looks/religion is going to trigger additional group-oriented defensiveness.

You can't just squash them like bugs. To mitigate the risks of terrorism, we have work to identify and subsequently remove the motives behind the terrorist attacks. Otherwise it will continue in one form or another....

Edited by vava, 13 July 2005 - 06:15 AM.


#60 Sip

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Posted 12 July 2005 - 02:29 PM

Jay Leno made a very interesting joke last night ... he said something about how LA's bus system is the second largest in the nation and authorities are urging people to report any suspicious looking people or activities ...

... then he went on to say ... yah right, LA? suspicious looking people? That's like EVERYONE laugh.gif

And having ridden LA busses for a couple of years about 6 hours a day going back and forth to UCLA, I would have to say he is very right. If I had to pick, I could identify about 17 potential terrorists a day on the buses I took.

Allaho Akbar.




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