92 replies to this topic

[gamavor]

We can actually lose our border with Turkey if this happens. But anyways...

That won't be that great of a loss. De facto, Armenia borders with Kurdistan. Turkish east (Western Armenia, North-Western Kurdistan) is bare like a desert. There is no economic incentive to open useless border. The backbone of Turkish economy is concentrated on the European and utmost western part of the country. The rest are just watching the commercials and salivating. The population on the other side of the border has no running water and light. They are poor like Punjabis. Opening of the border would not facilitate the transportation issues that Armenia has in order for her goods to reach desirable markets.

The only way Turkish east could be of any interest to us is if Europeans and Americans start pouring their tax money to improve the region, but even so it would take decades for this to happen. Armenia's best bet is to put the emphasis on air-transportation and intensification of the economic relations with Iran and Georgia, and why not in the future with Azerbaidjan.

[Shahan Araradian]

The only way Turkish east could be of any interest to us is if Europeans and Americans start pouring their tax money to improve the region, but even so it would take decades for this to happen. Armenia's best bet is to put the emphasis on air-transportation and intensification of the economic relations with Iran and Georgia, and why not in the future with Azerbaidjan.

I don't get it. When was the last time American tax dollars was used to develop another nation?

The American tactic (really it is the tactic of the Ruling Elite of the world) is:
1. give out loans to "developing nations" such as Armenia
2. make sure that the country taking on the debt (e.g. Armenia) can NOT repay its debt.
3. the creditor (Ruling Elite of the world) bargains with the debtor (e.g. Armenia) so that the debtor country changes its foreign and economic policies to allow the global corporations (90% owned by the ruling elite via direct private equity ownership or via hedge funds; the rest by the masses via pension funds and mutual funds) to come into the debtor country and make use of the available human capital (labor) and incorporate the debtor country's people and economy into the global economy.

Edited by Shahan Araradian, 06 August 2007 - 10:27 PM.

[Aratta-Kingdom]

[quote name='DeLaLa' date='Aug 5 2007, 05:27 AM' post='208419']

1.
"this is what you said in the previous post: http://hyeforum.com/...opic=16579&st=0

Delala :
"but there is armenians in turkey and you cant erase them , turkey wont get rid of armenians in turkey ! thats what turkey wants , but no chance . armenians in turkey would be cowards to leave them all the armenian institutions . armenians are present , and turkey will not just erase us . they WILL stay confronted with the armenian genocide until armenians do live even as a minority in the turkish state . we need to show presency . we are not a dead askh ! " "

Aratta:
armenians are AZG, the turks are not. even the assassination of Hrant Dink did not force the armenians out of turkey.


Delala
"did you listen to the words of Rakel Dinks speech ever ? Her love letter ?"




i said even the fear can't drive the armenians out of turkey. why did you have to mention her name? what does a sobbing woman got to do with the point your tried to make?







2.
"what does "repsect" mean ?"



I'm not your father or you teacher. Do your homework before you come to an armenian forum.






3.
http://hyeforum.com/...opic=16579&st=0

Delala :
"i dont understand the moral of armenian kaxakagans anyway ... i mean where is the moral? if you want to boykott opening the border of turkey because of the denial of the armenian genocide"



Aratta:
are you again blaming the others for your mistakes? how many times did the armenian side has offered to open the borders without preconditions? where is the moral of your government?




Delala :
"thats exactly what i tried to explain , but you and some others in this thread did not get it into your heads ."



you again contradict yourself. you first put the blame on the armenians for not having an open border with turkey. when proven wrong, you claim you been trying to explain that it is the turks who don't wanna open the border!?! you see how sptupid you look?






4.
Delala
"some posters claimed that they only want open borders under the ONLY condition that turkey recognizes armnian genocide ."

Aratta
it was you who blamed the armenian side for not having an open border, remember?


http://hyeforum.com/...opic=16579&st=0

Delala :
"i dont understand the moral of armenian kaxakagans anyway ... i mean where is the moral? if you want to boykott opening the border of turkey because of the denial of the armenian genocide"





5.
Delala
"you talk as if ARMENIA was the first who closed the border of turkey because supposedly armenians want closed border because of protest o the genocide-denial of turkey . NO! it IS the other way around ! TURKEY CLOSED THEIR BORDER TO ARMENIA ! so its absolutely ilogical your arguments .


http://hyeforum.com/...opic=16579&st=0

Delala :
"i dont understand the moral of armenian kaxakagans anyway ... i mean where is the moral? if you want to boykott opening the border of turkey because of the denial of the armenian genocide"


Aratta:
LOL this is too good to be true









6.

"yes its getting there . and every year more and more hayastanzis move to turkey , the number will keep rising in future."


where are you getting this information from?





7
"Aliev ? lol , you are probably getting mixed up with names here . it was ERDOGAN , not aliev who stated that . how can aliev kick out armenians from turkey? lol ."


that's my point. that's the card the azeri turks have been trying to play, and they have failed.







8.
" besides that by you saying " promised to deport all the armenian citizens from turkey " you just admitted you believe that armenian citizens do live in turkey . or who should to your oppinion get "kicked out"? "




this is what i said:

"when aliev the bitchoglu, promised to deport all the armenian citizens from turkey, he was hoping to gain a ground against the armenians from the negotiating process. didn't you learn the tactics of intimidation don't work with the armenians? can't you see you have failed?"

when aliyev makes a promise, he either tries to make his stupid people happy, or he tries to intimidate the armenians.






9.
"besides that armenian citizens live and work illegally in turkey , so why shouldnt erdogan kick them back to armenia ? "


didn't you just say "it was ERDOGAN , not aliev who stated that". i honestly think there is something wrong with your brain.





10.
"by armenian press writings . by international press writings . "

you read the armenian press? fine! show me an article from an armenian press that would support your claim.






11.
"why should armenians travel 30 hours to reach trabzon instead of 5-10 ? why should armenians each time pay baxshish at the giorgian border ?"


you first said "why are the busses through giorgia to trabzone packed with armenians (30 hours drive) ?"...then you claimed "why are the planes full of armenians?". so they travel by planes or by buses? even you can't make up your mind [in the process of designing a lie]











12.
"why shouldnt armenia for example stop exporting armenian cognac to khars ? "


LOL you got 80,000 armenians in turkey(as you claim ). why shouldn't they?







13.
"tz tz tz ... whats on a mans mind... believe it or not there are also armenians who dont go as sex tourists to sochi but spend a vacation with their family in ANTALYA . the planes yerevan/antalya is always packed with armenian tourists . "



WOW you make it sound as if turkey is a disneyland for the adults




14.
"there are many ways armenians come to turkey . flights from yerevan to istanbul and antalya is one. some fly yerevan to sofia and then continue with busses to istanbul . some drive through the giorgian border to turkey . "


are you sure the Pope is not among them?





15.
"sexual frustration Aratta ? "


BING ! It's time for me to join the other armenians and come to visit over 8 million illiterate turkish women who think only about food and sex. otherwise, i'm stuck in hotel with senior citizens who go to bed at 9...and wake up 4 in the morning...by the time i get to the buffet, i get to eat the leftovers (: it's sad. the hell with business and money. i must chase my turkish dream and come party with turkish woman.






16.
"NOPEEE .. wrong again Aratta . armenian citizens are NOT DIASPORA ! "



what the hell are you talking about?





17.
"armenian citizens left mostly their country because of bad economical reasons and to make a better life outside of hayastan . nobody kicked these people out of their own country grounds . armenian citizens left their own country on their own wish ."



they go to turkey to chase their turkish dream while the turks by millions run away from turkey in fear of their lives. over 4 million turks already live in Germany? close to 10 million are in all over the europe. how stupid these turks got to be. how can they not see what the armenians see? how can they just pack their bags and leave turkey?






18.
"lol , you are really amusing me here ... Aratta ? how many millions of turks live in turkey ? and how many millions of armenians live in armenia ? and , how many of these "millions of turks " who leave turkey are kurdish ?"




so you are saying while the armenians go to turkey, the kurds leave the country by millions? is that what you are saying?







19.
"do you like yourself Aratta? "

who cares? you call him daddy and you force the children of turkey to worship him. do you see now which one of us is in denial?






20.
"DUHHHHHHHHHHHH"



well? answer the question.





21.
"maybe no one in the mountain village you come from ? can it be? lol"






yeah, why not but you got to find at least one person who lives in yerevan and who would have a friend or a relative in turkey. for some reason that 80,000 you keep talking about got no friends or relatives among the other armenians. are you sure they are from armenia and not mars or jupiter?

Edited by Aratta-Kingdom, 07 August 2007 - 09:01 PM.

[Aratta-Kingdom]

AVO , so it is justified for you that forum users swear and call me names? so you want to really tell me i deserved these primitive swears? where did some of you get your family education from ? i really start wodering by now ...

why you think you must make it your business to wonder about the family education of the others? who gave you a right to enter their personal space?

how many times have i told you to have respect for the forum members?

either you start to respect the others or stop (...) about them attacking you back.

Edited by Aratta-Kingdom, 07 August 2007 - 08:55 PM.

[hosank]

this has gotten pointless, no armenian should insult another...we have the whole world against us, we don't have to be against ourselves as well, im sure we , who pride ourselves with being one of the oldest civilizations, can find a way to discuss our differences in a civilized way

[Yervant1]

this has gotten pointless, no armenian should insult another...we have the whole world against us, we don't have to be against ourselves as well, im sure we , who pride ourselves with being one of the oldest civilizations, can find a way to discuss our differences in a civilized way

Amen!!!!!!!!

[gamavor]

I don't get it. When was the last time American tax dollars was used to develop another nation?

The leading motivational incentive is not developing another nation, but developing a market. This is how CAPITAL works. It happened at least twice in a large scale in 20th century. The most exemplary example is the Marshal Plan. The second is Japan. Mind you American investment bankers have the best "noses" when it comes to profitability and development. Simply America has developed that way and they have the most expertise on the field. The same happened in a minor scale in Eastern Europe after the fall of the Berlin wall. If there is a potential for development it would be exploited.

We have to do our home work and admit that there is a lot to learn from American experience - a rare and successful combination of innovative business thinking, diplomacy and when needed military "advice".

[hosank]

actually a similar plan happened right after ww1, to revive european markets in order to sell goods...this collapsed with the depression.
and today, isreal and armenia are the worlds largest recepiants of american aid. and all that money comes from american TAXES

[DeLaLa]

and today, isreal and armenia are the worlds largest recepiants of american aid. and all that money comes from american TAXES

hi hosank , where do you have this information from ? can you explain me please ...

[DeLaLa]

http://www.turkishda...p?enewsid=81741 ,August 24, 2007

Increasing demand for Turkish goods in Armenia


ERIVAN - Anatolia news agency

The demand for Turkish goods going to Armenia via the Georgian border has increased because the border between Armenia and Turkey is closed, reported Agence France-Presse yesterday.

Maryam Harutunyan's article in AFP states that Turkish trucks arrive in Erivan, located 25 kilometers from Turkey, by passing a long way via Georgia and then negotiating a long queue that exceeds one kilometer.

Gacik Koçaryan, an Armenian Trade and Economic Development Ministry representative, conceded the existence of a significant amount of Turkish goods in Armenian markets and said that most of them were composed of white goods and clothes. Based on the accounts of the Armenian Ministry, the amount of Turkish goods in the Armenian market has increased by 40 percent compared to last year.

It is pointed out that Turkish and Armenian businessmen have demanded the lifting of the embargo and opening of the borders several times. Suren, an Armenian teenager said, “The quality and the price of the goods are of fundamental importance to me, not the country they come from,” reported AFP

[hosank]

i found this, hopefully it would at least partly answer your question

Breakdown of international trade

When the war came to an end in 1918, all European nations that had been allied with the United States owed large sums of money to American banks, sums much too large to be repaid out of their shattered treasuries. This is one reason why the Allies had insisted (to the consternation of Woodrow Wilson) on demanding reparation payments from Germany and Austria-Hungary. Reparations, they believed, would provide them with a way to pay off their own debts. However, Germany and Austria-Hungary were themselves in deep economic trouble after the war; they were no more able to pay the reparations than the Allies were able to pay their debts.

The debtor nations put strong pressure on the United States in the 1920s to forgive the debts, or at least reduce them. The American government refused. Instead, U.S. banks began making large loans to the nations of Europe. Thus, debts (and reparations) were being paid only by augmenting old debts and piling up new ones. In the late 1920s, and particularly after the American economy began to weaken after 1929, the European nations found it much more difficult to borrow money from the United States. At the same time, high U.S. tariffs were making it much more difficult for them to sell their goods in U.S. markets. Without any source of revenue from foreign exchange with which to repay their loans, they began to default.

Beginning late in the 1920s, European demand for U.S. goods began to decline. That was partly because European industry and agriculture were becoming more productive, and partly because some European nations (most notably Weimar Germany) were suffering serious financial crises and could not afford to buy goods overseas. However, the central issue causing the destabilization of the European economy in the late 1920s was the international debt structure that had emerged in the aftermath of World War I.

The Smoot-Hawley Tariff was especially harmful to agriculture because it caused farmers to default on their loans. This event may have worsened or even caused the ensuing bank runs in the Midwest and West that caused the collapse of the banking system.

Prior to the Great Depression, a petition signed by over 1,000 economists was presented to the U.S. government warning that the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act would bring disastrous economic repercussions; however, this did not stop the act from being signed into law.

The high tariff walls critically impeded the payment of war debts. As a result of high U.S. tariffs, only a sort of cycle kept the reparations and war-debt payments going. During the 1920s, the former allies paid the war-debt installments to the United States chiefly with funds obtained from German reparations payments, and Germany was able to make those payments only because of large private loans from the United States and Britain. Similarly, U.S. investments abroad provided the dollars, which alone made it possible for foreign nations to buy U.S. exports.

In the scramble for liquidity that followed the 1929 stock market crash, funds flowed back from Europe to America, and Europe's fragile economies crumbled.

By 1931, the world was reeling from the worst depression of all time, and the entire structure of reparations and war debts collapsed.

and delala, you are right, but i think we should wait for internal pressure (from your article, we see it as turkish businessmen) in turkey to want to lift the embargo first, not armenia, that will make us look desperate, and thus right away place us in a position of dependency

[hosank]

here is a list of top recipiants of us aid
isreal is at the top of course..
http://images.google...p...ficial&sa=X
and, armenia is 18th..

what is there to explain? the us raises money through taxes, and a percentage of that money goes for foreign developpement

[gamavor]

Hosank, Buddy! Americans have never ever did anything only because of mine or yours blue eyes, filled with sense of sympathy or sheer altruism! Here is how American development help works: USAID decides to fund with yours and mine tax money technology development project in Zanzibar. Then, a number of experts are dispatched on the field to asses the needs and the amount of funding. Then, they pay federal money to Microsoft (who in turn send them in the Congress through political party system funding) to do the job. The Zanzibar government is happy, Microsoft is happy and the US government is happy because they won another ally. Then, on the next year Microsoft decides to upgrade the systems installed in Zanzibar, but this time the expenses are covered by the Zanzibary government.