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#81 hagopn

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Posted 26 November 2003 - 05:59 PM

From all reports I have seen (including from the UNDP, which is interesting enough), economic under-development in the east is what has been behind most migration to urban centers. The Armenian "ges-ges" are very much so a great presence in all urban centres to the south-central region as well as the west. Adana is one such center. I have heard this from official and unofficial sources.

#82 bellthecat

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Posted 26 November 2003 - 07:34 PM

They are and have been called Hamsheanhayer due to the disctintly Hamshenite dialect that they speak.

Ho hum... that's a new one! So you are saying that one lot of people called another lot of people by a particular name because they spoke like yet another lot of people. How did the native populations of Abkhazia know what the Hemshin dialect sounded like? Do you know what a Breton dialect sounds like, or a Provence dialect, or a Langedoc dialect. I bet you don't - to you they will all just be French! What makes the Abkhazi any different, what gave them such a skill in linguistics?

I think you are cherry-picking your facts in order to fit then into a pre-existing concept. Until I hear a better explanation I will stick to my asumption that "Hamshenahayer" is used in Abkhazia in the same broad way that "Laz" is used in Turkey.

Also, the Black Sea region of Turkey is the most economically developed in Turkey after of the greater Istanbul region. And it has been like that since the 1930s and the advent of commercial tea production. It is a very wealthy area. For this reason, there has been little out migration except to Istanbul and areas near to Istanbul. The same was true in late Ottoman times - but then it was because population movement was restricted by the state. (The Adapazar Hemshinli are an exception, of course, since those settlements are very old.)

#83 hagopn

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Posted 26 November 2003 - 08:09 PM

Ho hum... that's a new one! So you are saying that one lot of people called another lot of people by a particular name because they spoke like yet another lot of people. How did the native populations of Abkhazia know what the Hemshin dialect sounded like? Do you know what a Breton dialect sounds like, or a Provence dialect, or a Langedoc dialect. I bet you don't - to you they will all just be French! What makes the Abkhazi any different, what gave them such a skill in linguistics?

I think you are cherry-picking your facts in order to fit then into a pre-existing concept. Until I hear a better explanation I will stick to my asumption that "Hamshenahayer" is used in Abkhazia in the same broad way that "Laz" is used in Turkey.

Also, the Black Sea region of Turkey is the most economically developed in Turkey after of the greater Istanbul region. And it has been like that since the 1930s and the advent of commercial tea production. It is a very wealthy area. For this reason, there has been little out migration except to Istanbul and areas near to Istanbul. The same was true in late Ottoman times - but then it was because population movement was restricted by the state. (The Adapazar Hemshinli are an exception, of course, since those settlements are very old.)

1. The question is: Why would I believe you more than I would believe them, especially if they corroborate other non-Turkish sources? Don't be offended, but I don't believe you. The Armenian linguists, Steve, Armenian linguists, and, yes, the Hamshen dialect is spoken by those Armenians all the way to Sochi and beyond, beyond, beyond.... You are pulling straws, Steve, pulling straws... (echo, echo....)

2. The Samsun region perhaps, perhaps, but not the Georgia border region, region...

#84 bellthecat

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Posted 26 November 2003 - 08:20 PM

1. The question is: Why would I believe you more than I would believe them, especially if they corroborate other non-Turkish sources? Don't be offended, but I don't believe you. The Armenian linguists, Steve, Armenian linguists, and, yes, the Hamshen dialect is spoken by those Armenians all the way to Sochi and beyond, beyond, beyond.... You are pulling straws, Steve, pulling straws... (echo, echo....)

2. The Samsun region perhaps, perhaps, but not the Georgia border region, region...

And what makes you assume that all those people, all the way to Sochi and beyond, who all speak the same dialect all came from just two little valleys in north-eastern Turkey? You may be relying on Armenian linguists. I'm relying on common sense. What you are believing doesn't sound realistic.

I don't know what you mean in point 2

#85 hagopn

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Posted 26 November 2003 - 09:14 PM

Their dialect makes me think on those lines. Do you have any other argument?

point 2: Samsun, yes, Trebizond, perhaps, but there is more to "pontus" than the center of the northern coast. Migration to the urban centers of the south and west is a common occurrence from ALL parts of eastern turkey.

Edited by hagopn, 26 November 2003 - 09:28 PM.


#86 Arpa

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Posted 30 January 2004 - 03:05 PM

As promised in another thread.
In that thread we were supposed to talk about Turks reconverting to Christianity, and that many of them may have been Christians(Armenian) at one time.
The following may illustrate the nostalgia some of them may be having. Pleading and begging for a nudge and encouragement.
Periodically I visit that site run by Hamshenites and once in a while something may catch my attention. Today one the correspondents who makes no secret of his Chritian Armenian Hamshenite ancestry had an item about Vardavar. You may go back up to see that one of the very few things they remember about their Armenian heritage is Vardavar.
---------
As much as I can decipher from the Turkish.
" Just as any other year, this year too Vardavar will be celebrated at Sb. Garabed and Sb. Krikor..."
Of course he is talking about churches in and around Istanbul.
He goes on explaining what Vardavar is, as well as he states that Armenians don't eat apples before the feast just as they don't eat grapes before the Feast of Astvatsatsin.
So far so good. This is what I found extremely curious. Where as we know that Vardavar is a pre-Christian feast dedicated to Anahit where during her feast the congregation would gather at the sacred river, have all kinds of fun and games, present the goddess with flowers and sacrifices, the highlight of the day would be water games, dousing each other.

This is what our friend in Hamshen says;
"That Vardavar is in memory of the "prophet" Noah(only moslems call Noah a prophet), that it is in memory of the great flood, hence the water games and dousing".

Very interesting. This is the first time I hear this said about Vardavar.

Note: Once again, please! If we see fit to change this post into a theological and philosphical debate, open a new topic in the appropriate categories.

Edited by Arpa, 30 January 2004 - 03:08 PM.


#87 hemsin basköylü

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Posted 16 February 2004 - 07:25 PM

barev arpa"can
inc pess es?
we miss you at our websites.we have momently very interesting discussions about hamshen, pontius and all the west -armenian.
the turkish people on the turkey can not be ignored hamshen and the ca.5 millions moslemhy now.they read about this themas.
what i said 2-3 months bevor? it is reality now,because they must read about homshetzihy and anotherhys on the west hayastan smile.gif)
you must come and write on our websites smile.gif)

inds petk e gnal smile.gif)

........yes homshetzihy"em yes chem morraona..

hemsin basköylü
tigran hamam hamatunzi kostanian

#88 shaunt

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Posted 28 March 2005 - 10:46 PM

Arpa, have you checked out this site:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hamshen

#89 Yervant1

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Posted 06 December 2006 - 12:18 PM

GENETIC RESEARCH EXCLUDED TURKISH ORIGIN OF HAMSHEN ARMENIANS

PanARMENIAN.Net
06.12.2006 13:20 GMT+04:00

/PanARMENIAN.Net/ The initial results of the genetic research of
Hamshen Armenians launched in 2003 have been received. As reported
by Yerkramas, the newspaper of Armenians of Russia, quoting project
director Levon Yepiskoposyan, the genetic DNA analysis taken from
Hamshen Armenians of Krasnodar and Rostov regions was carried out on
the London university college jointly with British colleagues. The
genetic investigation showed the following:

-Hamshen Armenians represent rather isolated territorial group,
Armenian origin of which make no doubt.

-The hypothesis advanced by Turkish scientists on the so-called
Turkish origin of Armenian-speaking.

Hamshens was completely refuted.

Some clarity was introduced in the problem of Hamshens' homeland. To
receive a final answer to this question the genetic history of Hamshens
is being investigated.

Hamshen Armenians make the majority of the Armenian population of the
Krasnodar region and some regions of Kuban and Adygea. They originate
from the region of Hamshen of Western Armenia, who settled in Kuban
after the Armenian Genocide in the Ottoman Empire. According to the
experts, some 250 thousand Armenians live in Adygea and Abkhazia. The
number of islamized Hamshen Armenians living in Turkey varies from
700 thousand to 1.5.2 million.

#90 kakachik77

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Posted 06 December 2006 - 02:05 PM

I recently read that pretty much all the Hemshens that settled in Southern Russia belong to the Armenian Apostolic Church, it's only the remaining ones in Turkey are Islamisized (actually that was the reason why they were NOT touched during the Genocide).

#91 kakachik77

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Posted 06 December 2006 - 02:14 PM

from Armenopedia

"There are currently 400,000 Hamshen Armenians, half of which are Muslims. Most Christian Hamshen Armenians reside in Abkhazia and the Krasnodar region of Russia."


the question is - how do we convert the other half back into their origins? Is this too late? Is this a violation of freedom of religion? And lastly - what makes one an Armenian (is it the language, religion, traditions, or just the willingness to be one irregardless of the things mentioned above).

#92 kakachik77

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Posted 06 December 2006 - 02:22 PM

rough analysis of Armenianness:


Christian Hamshen living in Russia
religion - Armenian Apostolic - pass
language - Hamshen dialect+Russian - semi-pass
tradition - turko-russian - fail
national consciousness - a type of Armenian - pass

Muslim Hamshen living in Russia
religion - fail
language - semi-pass
tradition - turko-russian - fail
national consciousness - a type of Armenian - pass

Muslim Hamshen living in Turkey
religion - fail
language - fail (mostly turkish these days)
tradition - turkish - fail
national consciousness - proud to be turkish citizens with armenian roots - FAIL

compare to

Jewish Armenian (an Armenian practicing Judeism who was born and grew up in Armenia)
religion - fail
language - only Armenian (fluent in Russian) - pass
tradtion - only Armenian - pass
national consciousness - Armenian - pass

#93 annannimusss

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Posted 06 December 2006 - 04:18 PM

If the Hamshens in Turkey join the Armenian Apostolic Church and want to become Armenian Citizens they should be allowed to become citizens and live in Armenia.

And about there dialect,there are many old Armenian dialects that were wiped out after the Genocide.Since they were not affected they kept that dialect.There is nothing wrong with that.

#94 Zartonk

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Posted 06 December 2006 - 08:50 PM

Kakachick jan, I like the definitiveness and absolute tone in you trail of their "Armenianness"...wink.gif

As far as I am concerned, they are Armenians if they relate to the culture and are willing to contribute to the nation.

#95 kakachik77

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Posted 07 December 2006 - 01:11 AM

I know Zartonk, I was not trying to prove anything scientifically...but if i think about it again Yezidi Kurds living in Armenia are more Armenian to me personally, than these people today unfortunately...we tend to cling to genes which is irrelevant in my opinion.

#96 Arpa

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Posted 07 December 2006 - 11:01 AM

QUOTE(Sako***** @ Dec 6 2006, 10:18 PM) View Post
If the Hamshens in Turkey join the Armenian Apostolic Church and want to become Armenian Citizens they should be allowed to become citizens and live in Armenia.

And about there dialect,there are many old Armenian dialects that were wiped out after the Genocide.Since they were not affected they kept that dialect.There is nothing wrong with that.

Dear Sako,
Can you please elaborate on the above highlighted word of yours?
I may know what you mean, but are you saying that anyone but an "Apostolic" cannot be Armenian?
Yes. We know that during Ottoman times there were three kinds of Armenians. Ermeni Katolik, Ermeni Portestan and Ermeni Ermeni, the latter meaning "Apostolic Armenian".
Do you mean to say that anyone, be they Apostolic (Christian) or not, professing to be Armenian, eve if they worship another deity, who speak Armenian, sing Armenian, eat and breathe Armenian, wish nothing but well for their Armenian Homeland will still be viewed as an enemy and a second class citizen?
There may be very little we can learn from the Turks, but when they consider all of their citizens as Turks, regardless of their ethnic and religious affiliation....!
Maybe some day, when we learn that lesson we may become as big and populous as the Turks.
Dream on!
How many "Apostolic Christians" were there in Armenia during the past 80 years of Soviet regime?
My friendly advice to you- Grow up! And maybe when you do that you may help our nation to grow up as well.

PS. Was it you who was amazed and expressed "ignorance" at the information about the Mekhitarists?
You may learn more searching and learning about famous Armenians who may not fit your narrow definition of an "Apostolic" Armenian.

Edited by Arpa, 07 December 2006 - 11:07 AM.


#97 Zartonk

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Posted 07 December 2006 - 11:21 AM

I agree with your position kakachick. I was only joking about the way you went about expressing it.

One more thing: The HAYASTANyats Church was for a long time the only bonding tie for Armenians, esp. diasporans. But today, we have a state. Let's focus on unification through the Republic and stop holding on to the idea that there is and should be only one creed and breed of Armenian

#98 Arpa

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Posted 07 December 2006 - 12:48 PM

THE ORIGIN OF HAMSHEN ARMENIANS NOT UNDER QUESTION

ArmRadio.am
06.12.2006 13:26

The hypothesis of Turkish scholars about the Turkish origin of "
Armenian-speaking Hamshens" has been refuted. He first results
of the molecular-hereditary expertise of Hamshen Armenians are
already ready. "Yerkramas" newspaper of Russian Armenians reports
that according to Dr. Levon Yepiskoposyan, the coordinator of the
given project, the hereditary examination of DNA samples of Hamshen
Armenians has been carried out in the London University College
together with British colleagues.

According to Levon Yepiskoposyan's data, the examinations allow to
confirm that the Armenian origin of Hamshen Armenians is not under
question.

To note, Hamshen Armenians comprise the majority of the Armenian
population of Krasnodar region and Kuban. They moved to Kuban still
in mid-19th century after the Armenian Genocide in the Ottoman
Empire. According to the data of experts, about 250 thousand Hamshen
Armenians reside in Kuban and Abkhazia,
while according to different
sources, 700,000 - 2 million Islamized Hamshen Armenians reside
in Turkey.

===========
Maybe some day the Armenian “Apostolic” Church will find a way to convince all the above that it is better to be an Armenian than…whatever!
Until then;
http://hyeforum.com/...wtopic=7065&hl=

#99 zurderer

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Posted 07 December 2006 - 02:38 PM

majority of them are not forced to become muslim, they fleed from russians.(Because of their religion)

I should also say, They call themself as Turks. So they are turks. If you want to follow asimilated armenians, You should look at eastern anatolia.

#100 annannimusss

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Posted 07 December 2006 - 02:53 PM

Arpa,are you so blind to see that I was trying to make a point.There is nothing wrong with the Armenian Catholic Church,the Protestants are also find.But my point (I should have been more specific since you are having a hard time understanding) is that they need to be Christian.And to be specific should either join the Armenian Apostolic Church or the Armenian Catholic Church,not the Protestant Church,but we already discussed this in another thread.

Edited by SakoPasha, 07 December 2006 - 02:54 PM.





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