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#61 bellthecat

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Posted 25 November 2003 - 08:38 AM

2. the Hamsheni do number perhaps 3 million. The "ethnic Turk" is a Kemalist illusion that still holds due to the incredible control on the majority by the organized and supported minority. Most are not so thoroughly "nationalized" as Kemal would have liked, and this is especially true in Cilicia. You still have persecution to the tooth in that region for that precise purpose, but the irony is that the persecution is on behalf of a government supported minority against a majority. Witnesses driving from Syria attest to this constantly.

What on earth do you mean by this? There are no Hemshinli in Cilicia. Nor are there (outside of the major cities) any Hemshinli anywhere else in Turkey except in and around their homeland in north-eastern Turkey, and in certain villages around Sakarya (Adapazar). And I'd think that they number in total a couple of 100,000 at most.

#62 Arpa

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Posted 25 November 2003 - 12:24 PM

All these from that same site in Hamshen.

Enjoy.

Ararat a unique view;
http://arcimaging.or...rarat200001.jpg

Armenian remnants at Agri/Aghori;
http://arcimaging.or...iksuyu20002.jpg

An Armenian monatery in Trabzon; Click on the numbers and see Ararat over Kars
http://www3.telus.ne...ey/turkey3.html

Boyajian; This corresondent writes under the synonym of Sebo. Now it may make sense? Se... Boyajian?
http://www.geocities...s/boyajian.html

And finally. Stormy/Poochik, look! With all due respects to the Poochigian clan.
http://www.geocities...e/6925/1895.htm

#63 Arpa

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Posted 25 November 2003 - 12:44 PM

Scroll down to the last frame and see if you can see me.
Shucks! I guess this photo was taken after I was gone.
The gorge is the Akhurian River and the hill to the right is Armenia from where we viewed the ruins of Ani. Look but no touch? Just like the legend says we were advised not to take pictures, but, don't tell anybody, we did, both still and video.

http://www3.telus.ne...ey/turkey4.html

#64 DominO

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Posted 25 November 2003 - 02:40 PM

What on earth do you mean by this? There are no Hemshinli in Cilicia. Nor are there (outside of the major cities) any Hemshinli anywhere else in Turkey except in and around their homeland in north-eastern Turkey, and in certain villages around Sakarya (Adapazar). And I'd think that they number in total a couple of 100,000 at most.

Do you have any information concerning Christian Hemshin population in the Ottoman prior to WWI?

#65 Arpa

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Posted 25 November 2003 - 03:05 PM


2. the Hamsheni do number perhaps 3 million.  The "ethnic Turk" is a Kemalist illusion that still holds due to the incredible control on the majority by the organized and supported minority.  Most are not so thoroughly "nationalized" as Kemal would have liked, and this is especially true in Cilicia.  You still have persecution to the tooth in that region for that precise purpose, but the irony is that the persecution is on behalf of a government supported minority against a majority.  Witnesses driving from Syria attest to this constantly.

What on earth do you mean by this? There are no Hemshinli in Cilicia. Nor are there (outside of the major cities) any Hemshinli anywhere else in Turkey except in and around their homeland in north-eastern Turkey, and in certain villages around Sakarya (Adapazar). And I'd think that they number in total a couple of 100,000 at most.

Steve,
Am I reading Hagop's quote correctly when I assume he is saying just the contrary. In fact as he states in another post that Hamshenahayeren is closely related to that of Taron. Not only that, it is so close to the Marash Hayeren with which I am somewhet familiar and by extension the Zeitun dialect which is understandably about 90% identical with the Marash one. To attest to that go to my post "Hayeren?" and see how I recognized that "yiyek" actually meant "yirek/three", where I also mention that the Zeituntsi glide their R's to sound like Y. Marashtsis don't, they do enunciate the R, another feature that I am familiar with is the "_dek" pluralizing ending, they would say "aghchindek" to mean aghchikner.
I may post a few sentences of Marash and Zeitun dialects if can locate them.
THere are those who trace the inhabitants of Marash to Taron, (and why not, to Hamshen), and they use the fact that Marashtsis are so fond of the word Vaspurakan that they name their every institutions such, including but not limited to their soccer team.
Is so uch similarity in their respective dialects just an acident? One must also consider, as Bert Vaux indicates, that most of these dialects are in their original sahpe, i.e. going back to Grabar days without being affected by modern Armenian that most of us learned at school rather than at home. If I were to learn Armenian at home I would be speaking in the Masarsh dialect now. Not really, since the link had been lost during the 1915s and all but totally forgotten and superseded with Turkish.

#66 Arpa

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Posted 25 November 2003 - 03:15 PM

Here is that link wher I almost successfully translated it.
Please not that at the time I was not aware that it was already transltade to English in that article by Bert Veaux which I so later as you can tell by my amazement that I had come so close.

http://armenians.com...t=0

Edited by Arpa, 25 November 2003 - 03:16 PM.


#67 Arpa

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Posted 25 November 2003 - 03:16 PM

Oops! Let me try again.

http://armenians.com...t=0

#68 hagopn

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Posted 25 November 2003 - 06:52 PM

What on earth do you mean by this? There are no Hemshinli in Cilicia. Nor are there (outside of the major cities) any Hemshinli anywhere else in Turkey except in and around their homeland in north-eastern Turkey, and in certain villages around Sakarya (Adapazar). And I'd think that they number in total a couple of 100,000 at most.

I should have been more clear:

Altough there are Hamshentsi who live in various urban centers in Cilicia, the "resistance to nationalization" I was referring to was in reference to those in Cilicia who have equally maintained their non-Turkish roots as "ges ges" muslims. This is especially true in Ayntab and vicinity where their "Turkish" dialect is inundated with Armenian words and grammatical structure. I will not even mention the numerous testimonies I have from Syrian Armenians who have found "cryptic" Armenians in the region. It is, by all accounts, as dense or more so than hamshen, but it is treated lightly by the various Armenian political entities and government due to the extremely explosive nature of this situation.

As to the 3 million, I think it is a fair estimate based on data that I have gotten from sources in Armenia (Armenian and non-Armenian.) In 1976 (?) there was a report published in "Garoun" in Yerevan that estimated their number (muslim and christian) to be around 1.5 million within Turkish borders, and I still adhere to that.

Where did you get your numbers?

#69 bellthecat

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Posted 26 November 2003 - 03:19 PM

An Armenian monatery in Trabzon; Click on the numbers and see Ararat over Kars
http://www3.telus.ne...ey/turkey3.html

Not Armenian - it is Georgian: Dortkilise monastery near Yusufeli (near as in a 3.5 hour walk from it).

#70 bellthecat

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Posted 26 November 2003 - 03:36 PM

I should have been more clear:

Altough there are Hamshentsi who live in various urban centers in Cilicia, the "resistance to nationalization" I was referring to was in reference to those in Cilicia who have equally maintained their non-Turkish roots as "ges ges" muslims.  This is especially true in Ayntab and vicinity where their "Turkish" dialect is inundated with Armenian words and grammatical structure.  I will not even mention the numerous testimonies I have from Syrian Armenians who have found "cryptic" Armenians in the region.  It is, by all accounts, as dense or more so than hamshen, but it is treated lightly by the various Armenian political entities and government due to the extremely explosive nature of this situation.

As to the 3 million, I think it is a fair estimate based on data that I have gotten from sources in Armenia (Armenian and non-Armenian.)  In 1976 (?) there was a report published in "Garoun" in Yerevan that estimated their number (muslim and christian) to be around 1.5 million within Turkish borders, and I still adhere to that.

Where did you get your numbers?

You are galloping into the realms of fantasy now! At the most, 15,000 Hemshinli live in their two original valleys and in the neighbouring towns on the Black sea. Probably ten times that number now live in the major towns of Western Turkey.

I'm not sure how many still live in the villages around Adapazar - a few thousand at most, I'd guess. I don't know if anyone has investigated when and why they migrated into the Adapazar region. It must have been with the permission of the Ottoman Empire, anyway - which means that they must have been openly Muslim by that time or they probably wouldn't have been allowed to come. However, they were still acknowledged as being Armenian by the local Armenian population.

#71 bellthecat

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Posted 26 November 2003 - 03:42 PM

Do you have any information concerning Christian Hemshin population in the Ottoman prior to WWI?

There were no "Christian" Hemshinli - there were only Hemshinli who were Muslim in public, but who retained some Christian customs and beliefs in private. Any pre-1915 Christians who lived in the Hemshin valleys (such as in the village of Elevit) were Armenians who called themselves Armenians.

#72 bellthecat

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Posted 26 November 2003 - 03:53 PM

...and the adult population (up in the valleys) would have been about the same size as the present day. Well, maybe that would have been true until 10 or 15 years ago - there has been a lot of recent depopulation due to people moving to the cities. My 15,000 figure came from Turkish books - so that too is probably less now, since population statistics are always out of date. Actually, given the physical size of the settlements, I think maybe 6,000 to 8,000 is a better estimate for those still living in their original homeland.

#73 hagopn

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Posted 26 November 2003 - 04:01 PM

Where did you get your information?

1. There apparently were Christian Hemshinli since they still do exist on the Black Sea Coast and are alive and well. I would assume, since I don't have information, that their migration took place around the 1860's when the first north Caucasian exudos into the Ottoman Empire took place.

2. Russian intelligence sources and Georgian SSR sources claimed that the Laz were aruond 5 million, and the Hamshenli were arond 1.5 million in, I believe, 1976. I have read this in "Garoun" monthly. Perhaps it is exaggerated and perhaps it is fantastically high a number, but those are the only numbers outside of "Turkish sources" (sic) that I have. Where are your sources?

#74 bellthecat

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Posted 26 November 2003 - 05:05 PM

Where did you get your information?

1. There apparently were Christian Hemshinli since they still do exist on the Black Sea Coast and are alive and well. I would assume, since I don't have information, that their migration took place around the 1860's when the first north Caucasian exudos into the Ottoman Empire took place.

2. Russian intelligence sources and Georgian SSR sources claimed that the Laz were aruond 5 million, and the Hamshenli were arond 1.5 million in, I believe, 1976. I have read this in "Garoun" monthly. Perhaps it is exaggerated and perhaps it is fantastically high a number, but those are the only numbers outside of "Turkish sources" (sic) that I have. Where are your sources?

There can't be "Christian Hemshinli" since, by definition, a Hemshinli is a Muslim Armenian. If a Hemshinli was a Christian then he would be an Armenian. (I'm obviously talking about the pre-1915 situation here). Any Christian Hemshinli that exist today would be Christian purely as a result of individual personal conversion - and not as a result of any direct cultural or ethnic influences. Where (in Turkey, I have only ever been talking about Turkey) do the Christian Hemshinli that you speak of live?

If a valley system can only physically support 6000 to 10000 people then not even Soviet propaganda is going to make it support 100 times that amount. Even allowing for a century or more of economic migration, (and those migrants doing a hell of a lot of breeding and all their descendants still retaining a Hemshin ethnic identity) a figure of 1.5 million is more than fantastical - it is laughable. The 5 million figure for the Laz is also crazy. What on earth was the Russian purpose in producing such inflated figures? Modern Turkish population figures are accurate - but I don't think they record minorities like Laz or Hemshinli.

The Hemshinli didn't migrate from Caucasia - they have been living where they are living now for at least 1000 years. The Laz did migrate from the Caucasus, but that was a long time ago (can't remember exactly right now - 800 years ago?). Some Hemshinli from Turkey migrated TO the Caucasus during the end of the 19th century, for economic reasons.

#75 Harut

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Posted 26 November 2003 - 05:15 PM

Steve
Armenians living along black sea (Georgia, Abkhazia, S. Russia) are called hamshenahayer.
i don't know more than that.

#76 hagopn

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Posted 26 November 2003 - 05:42 PM

Steve,

About the Hamshenatsi, I think that you need to study more. You sound like you have no idea what you are talking about. There are indeed Christian Hamshenatsi up the Black Sea coast all the way to Sochi/Adler and beyond. They are even scattered about the Crimea and the rest of the Ukraine. There may well be some in other parts of Russia.

As to populaton figures: Those in Turkey who have assumed a Turkish identity have populated the various regions of Turkey. The Laz live not only in the north eastern sea-coast or mountain range, but all over Turkey as a result of economic stagnation in the east. "Hamshenli" are in the same situation; i.e. all over Turkey. They were ecountered by Armenians from Syria in Adana, Mersin, and so on. They could very well number above the "valley system sustenance" figures due to the inherent urbanization trends of the Turkish economy in the last 3 decades.

Edited by hagopn, 26 November 2003 - 05:45 PM.


#77 bellthecat

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Posted 26 November 2003 - 05:42 PM

Steve
Armenians living along black sea (Georgia, Abkhazia, S. Russia) are called hamshenahayer.
i don't know more than that.

I also know that (hence my stress that I was refering only to Turkey) - but I also don't know much more. Though I do not think they migrated from the current Hemshin valleys, which were completely Muslim by the 19th century. Perhaps they originated from the separate community of Hemshinli who live in the hills to the east of Borcka.

Nor does the fact that Armenians living along black sea are called hamshenahayer mean that they actually came from Hamshen. In Turkey, in popular language, anyone from the Black sea is called "Laz" but 90 percent are actually not Laz. So maybe "hamshenahayer" simply refers to any Armenian who migrated from north-eastern Turkey to Abkhazia. But I don't know for certain.

#78 hagopn

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Posted 26 November 2003 - 05:47 PM

Steve
Armenians living along black sea (Georgia, Abkhazia, S. Russia) are called hamshenahayer.
i don't know more than that.


I also know that (hence my stress that I was refering only to Turkey) - but I also don't know much more. Though I do not think they migrated from the current Hemshin valleys, which were completely Muslim by the 19th century. Perhaps they originated from the separate community of Hemshinli who live in the hills to the east of Borcka.

Nor does the fact that Armenians living along black sea are called hamshenahayer mean that they actually came from Hamshen. In Turkey, in popular language, anyone from the Black sea is called "Laz" but 90 percent are actually not Laz. So maybe "hamshenahayer" simply refers to any Armenian who migrated from north-eastern Turkey to Abkhazia. But I don't know for certain.

Steve,

I think you are now ni the process of denying existing evidence. That is a dangerous practice. They are and have been called Hamsheanhayer due to the disctintly Hamshenite dialect that they speak. Like I said, go do your studies more thoroughly.

Edited by hagopn, 26 November 2003 - 05:48 PM.


#79 bellthecat

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Posted 26 November 2003 - 05:50 PM

Steve,

About the Hamshenatsi, I think that you need to study more. You sound like you have no idea what you are talking about.

As to populaton figures: Those in Turkey who have assumed a Turkish identity have populated the various regions of Turkey. The Laz live not only in the north eastern sea-coast or mountain range, but all over Turkey as a result of economic stagnation in the east. "Hamshenli" are in the same situation; i.e. all over Turkey. They were ecountered by Armenians from Syria in Adana, Mersin, and so on. They could very well number above the "valley system sustenance" figures due to the inherent urbanization trends of the Turkish economy in the last 3 decades.

No Hagopn - it is you who do not know what you are talking about! Unlike you, I have been to the areas in question, and explored them in depth.

Stop talking nonsence about there being Hemshinli in Adana or Mersin - there may be a few hundred but not more than that. And stop your similar nonsence about "economic stagnation". They are leaving the villages for the same reason that villages throughout Europe get depopulated - life is easier in the cities. They are leaving because there is NOT economic stagnation.

I was fortunate to have spoken to the probably last living Armenian who lived in pre-1915 Adapazar, near to the Hemshinli villages there. He confirmed that they were all Muslim, but were still recognised as Armenian by the local Christian Armenains.

#80 hagopn

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Posted 26 November 2003 - 05:57 PM

Sorry to say, I think that you are denying evidence that has been provided by living communities. The Russia Hamshentsi are indeed Hamshentsi as has been confirmed by linguists. They speak the dialect that the Turkish Hamshentsi speak.

As to the speculations on how many there possibly are in Adana, Mersin, neither you nor the Turkish government (wants to) know the ethnic make-up of its urban centers. All you are armed is with anecdotal "evidence" based on personal experience. That is, sorry to say, limited in scope since you do not represent a team or institution.

Other than that, I will ask for the third time, where did you get your information (and don't give me "anecdotal" travel diaries? You never answered that.




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