62 replies to this topic

[Garo]

The posts below have been moved here from the Culture Forum.


aurguplu
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raffi,
would you please be so kind as to tell me what these phrases mean in armenian:

zartnir laow mernim kezi

and

a bolshaye

just curious. i keep seeing them all over the forum and don't know what they mean.

thanx a million in advance.

regards,
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ali suat

[Garo]

raffiaharonian
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Ali,
'Zartnir...." in free translation would mean

"Wake up Nation/people, I'll die (sucrifice) for you..."
It is actually a song which says about the massacres conducted by bloodthirsty sultan abdul hamid, and requests from the people to stand for their nation.
( Houjan asker, zorke hanel ,
Yegel Msho pertn e badel.......
Sultan gouzi, chnchi m@zi
Zartnir lao, mernim k@zi...)

BTW , Ali , have you visited a site called (I think) www.otomans.tr (or something like that) ? It is quite interesting to see the heroes of the Ottoman empire, and the glorification of one of the most bloodthirsty , sick man , bloody Sultan, abdul hamid!

Bolsahay means an Armenian from Constantinopole (Istambul).
Bolis from the Greek polis (city) and Hay, i guess you know that by now!

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I used to complain when I didn't have shoes, UNTIL I saw somebody that didn't have legs!.........

[Garo]

aurguplu
---------------------------------------------
raffi thanks
i tried all combinations, and the only one is ottoman.com tr, which is the web site of osmanlı bankası.

i wouldn't mind that much that sultan abdulhamid is revered as one of the greatest sultans. after all, he did not treat the turks noticeably better and did his best to extinguish turkish nationalism at any price (and it was high, the price). perhaps the extremism of the ittihad ve terakki against the non-turks can be partly explained by the fact that turkish nationalist awakening was dealt a very severe and long-term blow under abdulhamid ii.

the day he was deposed, muslims, christians and jews of istanbul kissed one another and danced in the streets arm to arm.

this guy had a p.r. problem, to say the least.

the fact that we are still revering (or at least have not officially disowned them) some of the "malum" figures (sorry i couldn't come up with a fitting english word) of the ittihad ve terakki and the war of independence it far more worrying as far as i am concerned, because they set an example to the turkish youngsters, who, at a very impressionable age, are exposed to the exploits of these people through the grey wolves.

abdulhamid ii is history, whether good or bad. attitudes derived from ittihad ve terakki still aren't. if we are gonna worry about one thing, this is it and not abdulhamid.

regards,

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ali suat

[Garo]

aurguplu
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raffi,
this is just being curious. i have no armenian, but venture to guess the meanings of the following words:

laow: people

mernim: ?our (some declension)

qezi: you, thou (accusative case)

did i record any hits? would be glad if you could let me know.

regards,

--------------------

ali suat

[Garo]

aurguplu
---------------------------------------------
raffi,
are you out there or did i say something wrong?

regards,

--------------------

ali suat

[Garo]

raffiaharonian
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Hi Ali,
sorry but was away for a few days on a business trip.
Indeed the threat of the Grey Wolves in Turkey is of grave consern! They abuse the misery of the masses and they abuse Islam as well.
Abdul Hamid is a big figure in our modern history, that's why we cannot forget him or let him go.
Just like (nothing comparable to the vast scale ), Osama Bin Ladin will be presented in the history books or the States!

As for the translation:

You've got most of them right except for,
Mernim = I'll die.

Mernim kezi = I'll die for you.

The poet is asking his people to 'wake up, please , i'll die for you '. (something of this sort).

I guess the word 'lao' is not armenian. In greek it means people, and I guess it is adopted as such!

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I used to complain when I didn't have shoes, UNTIL I saw somebody that didn't have legs!.........

[Garo]

aurguplu
---------------------------------------------thanks raffi,
so i scored some. i thought "mernim" would have to do with "mer", i guess this must mean "our" like in mer hayr "our father" (i hope i remember correctly) it didn't occur to me in the heat of the moment that it could come from the root "mer-". o.k. will be more careful next time.

as for "laow" it may come from greek "laos", but reflexes of it exist in other indo-european languages, so it might indeed be an armenian word. in phrygian, there was a word "rawaqetha" which meant "army commander", and was the same word as mycenean greek "lawaqeta".

thanks,

[ October 22, 2001: Message edited by: aurguplu ]

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ali suat

[Garo]

Twilight Bark
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quote:
---------------------------------------------Originally posted by raffiaharonian:

I guess the word 'lao' is not armenian. In greek it means people, and I guess it is adopted as such!
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Dear Raffi,
I am not sure that "lao" is not Armenian, at least not present from a very early stage. "Lu" means "man" in Sumerian. The word "lao" exists in some folkloric songs from the provinces of ancient Armenia. I believe some Kurdish dialects may also have it, although I am not entirely sure of that. I am not an expert in any of this, but I feel that we should not be hasty in deciding who borrowed from who.

Best Regards,
Twilight Bark

[Garo]

raffiaharonian
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quote:
---------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Twilight Bark:

Dear Raffi,
I am not sure that "lao" is not Armenian, at least not present from a very early stage. "Lu" means "man" in Sumerian. The word "lao" exists in some folkloric songs from the provinces of ancient Armenia. I believe some Kurdish dialects may also have it, although I am not entirely sure of that. I am not an expert in any of this, but I feel that we should not be hasty in deciding who borrowed from who.

Best Regards,
Twilight Bark


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Dearest Twilight, if you care to notice , i used to word 'guess'.
I would be more than glad to claim that the word 'lao' is indeed Armenian. I have no preoccupation to denounce anything of Armenian value. However , having a well knowledge of Greek and Armenian, I can say that the greeks use the word 'lao' everyday, while us, have the pleasure of using it in 'kavaraparpar' dialects only!
If indeed it is an Armenian word, I would be more than happy to claim so.

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I used to complain when I didn't have shoes, UNTIL I saw somebody that didn't have legs!.........

[Garo]

aurguplu
---------------------------------------------on lao
as i had pointed out in a previous posting, phrygian had a word possibly containing "lao" (rawa-). if armenian descended from the same cluster of dialects as phrygian (it cannot have descended from phrygian directly for linguistic reasons), then "lao" could perhaps be an armenian word. besides, greek and armenian (together with phrygian) are thought to have belonged to the same dialect group after the breakup of indo-european, and the word can be common to all three.

doesn't anyone have access to an armenian etymological dictionary?

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ali suat

[Garo]

Twilight Bark
---------------------------------------------Dear Raffi,
Of course I noticed your qualifying of what you thought about the subject. Not being sure myself, I also qualified my thoughts by using "not sure ..." a few times. However, if you do not welcome my input I would not want to bother you.
Best,
Twilight Bark
P.S. Why do you think that I would perceive your linguistic opinion as denouncing things Armenian?

[Garo]

raffiaharonian
---------------------------------------------

Twilight, criticism well taken......

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I used to complain when I didn't have shoes, UNTIL I saw somebody that didn't have legs!.........

[SAS]

__________________________________________

Zartir lao, mernim q@zi = Wake up my childe, i'll die for you.

Lao = child... in dialects of Mush, Sasun etc.

There is another song

-Qele lao, qele ertanq m@r ergir = Lets go my child, lets go to our country...
____________________________________________________________________________

SAS

[Harut]

yes, i think "lao" means "child" too.
because the previous line of that song goes like this:
"m@r hous toghets *****(don't rem.) orotskin,
zartnir lao mernim qzi"

meaning:
"he left our hope on child's bed,
wake up child, i'll die for you"

[ThornyRose]

What about the words chemen and byzdyk (çemen and bızdık) that we know in Turkish? I think they are supposed to be Armenian - but can somebody confirm, please?

And any Turkish words in Armenian that might draw my interest? Other Armenian words in Turkish, etc.? I'd also like to hear about any Greek to Armenian or Armenian to Greek exchanges if anyone can remember any off-hand. Thanks in advance.

Çemen is that plant they make the paste for pastırma from, by the way (and I've just had some, after last week's disappointment - came home on Friday to find all of it swallowed up by my two aunts )...

[MJ]

The word "bızdık" stands for small in one of Armenian dialects. As to chaman, I doubt it is an Armenian word.

[ThornyRose]

Yep, we use it for cute li'l kids here...

[ThornyRose]

Actually, I was also curious about the names of metals in Armenian: gold, silver, tin, copper, and iron.
In Turkish, they are altın, gümüş, kalay, bakır, and demir, respectively. Save altın and demir (which I know to be Turkish, originally altun [as in Altun-Orda] and temir [Genghis Khan's original name Timujin is our "temirji" - ironsmith]), I don't know if the others are Turkish or not. Maybe I might not look for the answers to the others (which I don't know anything about) in Armenian, but who knows? Maybe there has been an exchange there, as well.

[MJ]

None of these words sound Armenian to me.

[ThornyRose]

What are the Armenian equivalents, then?