All my life, I've wanted to be able to speak Armenian. Now that I have a son I want us both to speak it. Here's my problem:
-My wife is odar and thus doesn't speak it
-My mom only speaks the Dikranegertsi dialect
-My grandma speaks Dikranegertsi, Western and "Church" Armenian
-I live in Glendale where Eastern/Russian Armenian prevails. It's so different that my grandmother cannot follow the language on the Armenian Channel.
Ugh! It's either communicate within my family and no one else in Glendale, or vice versa.
Maybe we should all just learn Spanish!!
[This message has been edited by Pilafhead (edited October 07, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Pilafhead (edited October 07, 2000).]
Western? Eastern? Whatta I Do??
Started by
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, Oct 07 2000 10:41 PM
27 replies to this topic
#2
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Posted 08 October 2000 - 03:06 AM
Dear friend!
The fact that you do want to speak Armenian, is everything.
follow to another topic "Armenian identity. who is Armenian?"
rgrds
Ararat
The fact that you do want to speak Armenian, is everything.
follow to another topic "Armenian identity. who is Armenian?"
rgrds
Ararat
#3
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Posted 08 October 2000 - 07:50 AM
Dear Pilafhead, I would just learn the dialect that you are surrounded with, in your case the Eastern dialect. Thus you will be able to practice with people. The problem is that most of the books and cassettes out there for learning Armenian are geared toward the Western Dialect. Good Luck!
#4
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Posted 08 October 2000 - 07:53 AM
Dear Pilafhead,
First of all congratulations on your nickname.
Very funny indeed. I don´t think it matters much if you learn Eastern or Western, my view is that they are reasonably interchangeable, unless spoken by very young strongly Russian influenced recent immigrants. Good luck in whatever path you choose.
First of all congratulations on your nickname.
Very funny indeed. I don´t think it matters much if you learn Eastern or Western, my view is that they are reasonably interchangeable, unless spoken by very young strongly Russian influenced recent immigrants. Good luck in whatever path you choose.
#5
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Posted 08 October 2000 - 08:54 AM
Guys,
I can speak and understand without problems both Eastern and Western Armenian, and think the differences, when spoken on both sides by people respecting our language, are not really too significant. I think anybody who is really proficient with the Western Armenian, can completely understand those who speak educated Eastern Armenian.
As much as I feel pain for the contamination of the Eastern Armenian by our young people, I don't think it is resulted from the Russian influence. I know perfect Russian, but never mix the two languages.
When I hear some of our young Eastern Armenians speak that so-called contemporary Armenian, even occasionally in this forum, I feel like someone is stabbing a knife in my heart. Eastern Armenian is perfectly clean, beautiful and self-sufficient language. Its contamination I think is not due to the Russian influence, but is rather a social and class phenomenon.
I can assure you that if the same people would've spoken Russian, you would've liked to close your ears, equally.
[This message has been edited by MJ (edited October 08, 2000).]
I can speak and understand without problems both Eastern and Western Armenian, and think the differences, when spoken on both sides by people respecting our language, are not really too significant. I think anybody who is really proficient with the Western Armenian, can completely understand those who speak educated Eastern Armenian.
As much as I feel pain for the contamination of the Eastern Armenian by our young people, I don't think it is resulted from the Russian influence. I know perfect Russian, but never mix the two languages.
When I hear some of our young Eastern Armenians speak that so-called contemporary Armenian, even occasionally in this forum, I feel like someone is stabbing a knife in my heart. Eastern Armenian is perfectly clean, beautiful and self-sufficient language. Its contamination I think is not due to the Russian influence, but is rather a social and class phenomenon.
I can assure you that if the same people would've spoken Russian, you would've liked to close your ears, equally.
[This message has been edited by MJ (edited October 08, 2000).]
#6
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Posted 08 October 2000 - 02:16 PM
Hello
Pilafhead! HA HA HA HA!!! I havent laughed so much in ages! I'm cracking up and my side hurts
Do whatever you feel is right for you. I take it you are Hye, right? Then It is great to learn.
But personally if I were you learn any dialect you can possibly get your hands on first, then you can learn em ALL later
OR ask around for advice which dialect is recommended to learn fist so that you can learn all other dialects easier. I shoudlnt worry too much about using the one from your origins first, (unless you can find it easily of course)
Pilafhead! HA HA HA HA!!! I havent laughed so much in ages! I'm cracking up and my side hurts
Do whatever you feel is right for you. I take it you are Hye, right? Then It is great to learn.
But personally if I were you learn any dialect you can possibly get your hands on first, then you can learn em ALL later
OR ask around for advice which dialect is recommended to learn fist so that you can learn all other dialects easier. I shoudlnt worry too much about using the one from your origins first, (unless you can find it easily of course)
#7
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Posted 08 October 2000 - 06:52 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Kazza:
[B]Hello
Pilafhead! HA HA HA HA!!! I havent laughed so much in ages! I'm cracking up and my side hurts
Do whatever you feel is right for you. I take it you are Hye, right? Then It is great to learn.
B]
Originally posted by Kazza:
[B]Hello
Pilafhead! HA HA HA HA!!! I havent laughed so much in ages! I'm cracking up and my side hurts
Do whatever you feel is right for you. I take it you are Hye, right? Then It is great to learn.
B]
Thanks for the complement! Actually my dad is Italian, but I was COMPLETELY raised by my Armenian side. Therefore, all my life I have considered myself a proud Armenian with a capital "A". The most ironic thing is that I care about Hye culture more than 99% of my full-blooded relatives.
My grandparents taught my mom and her brothers Dikranegertsi, but the next generation of us weren't completely taught. Funny thing is, the main reason my grandmother can read and write "proper" Armenian is because she went to school for it! She was born in New Jersey in 1920 and her parents only spoke Dikranegertsi and turkish in the house.
I agree with MJ that Eastern Armenian, when spoken properly, is a beautiful language. Western Armenian does not fully accentuate the differences in some of the similar-sounding letters.
Mike (Pilafhead)
#8
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Posted 09 October 2000 - 09:36 AM
In my view each of the major dialects - Eastern and Western have two beautiful representatives - Bolsahay and Yerevanian. I admire both of them, and I think both of them are developed to a level of perfection.
However, there are dozens of provincial dialects filling the space between these two, and beyond them. Each regional dialect has had different influences, and it is natural. But the mentioned two are the ones, which have been the carriers of Armenian written language, and to me are the standards.
When I hear the subcategories of the western category of Armenian language, in most of the cases they generate resentment similar to those in the eastern category.
In the past, I have tried to open a dialog on Armenian language, trying to support the arguments using samples of Armenian poetry as evidences of the beauty of both Bolsahay and Yerevanian versions, but the subject has not been much supported.
As it pertains to the question which version to study, I think this question is similar to the one which version of English to study - Oxford or American. To me the answer is Colloquial English.
To me both are fine. But we don't make such decisions based on the Tennesseeian English or worse, Jamaican English. In either case, I think the criterion might be something like Shakespearian English or Hemingwaian, for example.
[This message has been edited by MJ (edited October 09, 2000).]
However, there are dozens of provincial dialects filling the space between these two, and beyond them. Each regional dialect has had different influences, and it is natural. But the mentioned two are the ones, which have been the carriers of Armenian written language, and to me are the standards.
When I hear the subcategories of the western category of Armenian language, in most of the cases they generate resentment similar to those in the eastern category.
In the past, I have tried to open a dialog on Armenian language, trying to support the arguments using samples of Armenian poetry as evidences of the beauty of both Bolsahay and Yerevanian versions, but the subject has not been much supported.
As it pertains to the question which version to study, I think this question is similar to the one which version of English to study - Oxford or American. To me the answer is Colloquial English.
To me both are fine. But we don't make such decisions based on the Tennesseeian English or worse, Jamaican English. In either case, I think the criterion might be something like Shakespearian English or Hemingwaian, for example.
[This message has been edited by MJ (edited October 09, 2000).]
#9
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Posted 09 October 2000 - 01:29 PM
That is SO cool.
The funny thing actually is is thatI have met a lot of BIOLOGICALLY 100 percent armenians. But in mind and heart, the might as be 0 percent! Then you meet SOME, that say, oh well, mixed people are odars, mixed people dont know their culture and heritage if they dont live in armenia/go to armenian/schools/marry armenians/hang around only with armenians, etc,etc. That is so untrue. What actually matters, as you say, is whether you care about your Hye people.
Learn Spanish or Armenian? East or west? the answer, my friend, is both! But Armenian first
I am wondering; you say your grandmother went to proper school, is thee any schools local to you also, but part time (say, weekends) for you and your kids to go to?
The funny thing actually is is thatI have met a lot of BIOLOGICALLY 100 percent armenians. But in mind and heart, the might as be 0 percent! Then you meet SOME, that say, oh well, mixed people are odars, mixed people dont know their culture and heritage if they dont live in armenia/go to armenian/schools/marry armenians/hang around only with armenians, etc,etc. That is so untrue. What actually matters, as you say, is whether you care about your Hye people.
Learn Spanish or Armenian? East or west? the answer, my friend, is both! But Armenian first
I am wondering; you say your grandmother went to proper school, is thee any schools local to you also, but part time (say, weekends) for you and your kids to go to?
#10
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Posted 09 October 2000 - 06:39 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Kazza:
I am wondering; you say your grandmother went to proper school, is thee any schools local to you also, but part time (say, weekends) for you and your kids to go to?
Originally posted by Kazza:
I am wondering; you say your grandmother went to proper school, is thee any schools local to you also, but part time (say, weekends) for you and your kids to go to?
Yes, I am fortunate enough to live in Glendale where there are a zillion schools for children, but not sure about adults. A couple of the local community colleges offer Armenian, but one BIG problem is Armenian-speaking freshmen who enrole simply for an easy pass. As a senior in university, I enrolled in an Armenian class but I ended up dropping it exactly for that reason--the teacher couldn't control a class full of immature kids who probably knew the language better than her!
Ideally I'd like to go to class with my son (who's now 4 1/2), but I don't think they'd allow me into a children's Saturday Armenian school. Maybe if I slouch and wear a Limp Bizkit shirt, I could fool 'em.
#11
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Posted 09 October 2000 - 07:45 PM
OOh!
That sounds like the greek, turkish and spanish GCSE and A Level classes at school!
Oh, I dunno. Perhaps you can fool them. Remeber your Pokemon cards or they wont sit with you!
That sounds like the greek, turkish and spanish GCSE and A Level classes at school!
Oh, I dunno. Perhaps you can fool them. Remeber your Pokemon cards or they wont sit with you!
#12
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Posted 10 October 2000 - 03:35 PM
MJ, methinks Shakespearean English to be a bit passe! LOL!
As for the introductory level courses at Community Colleges, it isn't much better with graduate level courses at a university, with adults!
Pilafhead, just learn Armenian from whoever, even if you come up with a Hybrid dialect of your, that's ok. I speak a weird Hybrid of Barskahay with a smattering of Thachkahay phrases (pan mega?). This is because my maternal grandmother's side are Thachkahay originally, so they still use a lot of that dialect. For instance we use "akra" instead of "atam" for tooth. Plus, when I lived in Montebello in the 80s, it was primarily composed of Lipanahays, now it is almost exclusively Hayastansi and Rusahays.
Whatever, we need to speak Armenian!
As for the introductory level courses at Community Colleges, it isn't much better with graduate level courses at a university, with adults!
Pilafhead, just learn Armenian from whoever, even if you come up with a Hybrid dialect of your, that's ok. I speak a weird Hybrid of Barskahay with a smattering of Thachkahay phrases (pan mega?). This is because my maternal grandmother's side are Thachkahay originally, so they still use a lot of that dialect. For instance we use "akra" instead of "atam" for tooth. Plus, when I lived in Montebello in the 80s, it was primarily composed of Lipanahays, now it is almost exclusively Hayastansi and Rusahays.
Whatever, we need to speak Armenian!
#13
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Posted 10 October 2000 - 03:47 PM
Hi FasriSteve!
LOOOOLL! I think you'd mean "english Literature" and yes, that is PRETTY passe as passe goes.
As for the dialects u speak: I fdidnt even undertand a word of that!
I have got an idea. You understand loads of it dont you? Well, I say your sysnonyms bit which was really good. Mabye you can post us little mini lessons, like how to say elementary sentences and words (and Pilaf head and i will actually understand the stuff flinging between forum members
LOOOOLL! I think you'd mean "english Literature" and yes, that is PRETTY passe as passe goes.
As for the dialects u speak: I fdidnt even undertand a word of that!
I have got an idea. You understand loads of it dont you? Well, I say your sysnonyms bit which was really good. Mabye you can post us little mini lessons, like how to say elementary sentences and words (and Pilaf head and i will actually understand the stuff flinging between forum members
#14
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Posted 10 October 2000 - 03:53 PM
OOps! Sorry. I thought you meant Shakespearean English at MY old school being passe which it is,(instead of pilafheads) and then I said "i think you mean English Literature", Thats why i said it like that! Sorry....
#15
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Posted 10 October 2000 - 04:04 PM
Pilafhead I had to think about it, but in my opinion, cultural herritage is very important.
Language has primarily the function of communication instrument, but in the USA it is English. Another thing is cultural herritage, your cultural herritage is West-Armenian, so in this respect preserving the West-Armenian language helps to keep your West-Armenian cultural herritage.
Language has primarily the function of communication instrument, but in the USA it is English. Another thing is cultural herritage, your cultural herritage is West-Armenian, so in this respect preserving the West-Armenian language helps to keep your West-Armenian cultural herritage.
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Posted 10 October 2000 - 04:06 PM
Steve,
Perhaps you are right But I am sure you know what I meant.
Perhaps you are right But I am sure you know what I meant.
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Posted 10 October 2000 - 05:54 PM
Kazza jan,
"Barskahay" means Iranian Armenian. The Armenian we speak is heavily coated with Farsi words. For instance we think nothing of say "Lav bas" (bas is enough in Farsi), and constantly use words like "masalan" "taghriban" which might really be Arabic with a Persian accent.
Thachkahayeren is what we in my family(I think wrongly)call the Western Dialect. Literally Thachkastan means "Turkey." Basically anyone from Turkey, Greece, the Arab World and Bulgaria seem to speak this dialect.
As for me teaching you guys Armenians, Ill try, that's very sweet of you, but poor things! My Armenian is more like "Farmenian"( Farsi-Armenian, ha!) I actually speak Farsi much better than Armenian, and find it to be much easier, it just rolls off the tongue better than Armenian.
"Barskahay" means Iranian Armenian. The Armenian we speak is heavily coated with Farsi words. For instance we think nothing of say "Lav bas" (bas is enough in Farsi), and constantly use words like "masalan" "taghriban" which might really be Arabic with a Persian accent.
Thachkahayeren is what we in my family(I think wrongly)call the Western Dialect. Literally Thachkastan means "Turkey." Basically anyone from Turkey, Greece, the Arab World and Bulgaria seem to speak this dialect.
As for me teaching you guys Armenians, Ill try, that's very sweet of you, but poor things! My Armenian is more like "Farmenian"( Farsi-Armenian, ha!) I actually speak Farsi much better than Armenian, and find it to be much easier, it just rolls off the tongue better than Armenian.
#18
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Posted 10 October 2000 - 06:13 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Iranyar:
Pilafhead I had to think about it, but in my opinion, cultural herritage is very important.
Language has primarily the function of communication instrument, but in the USA it is English. Another thing is cultural herritage, your cultural herritage is West-Armenian, so in this respect preserving the West-Armenian language helps to keep your West-Armenian cultural herritage.
Originally posted by Iranyar:
Pilafhead I had to think about it, but in my opinion, cultural herritage is very important.
Language has primarily the function of communication instrument, but in the USA it is English. Another thing is cultural herritage, your cultural herritage is West-Armenian, so in this respect preserving the West-Armenian language helps to keep your West-Armenian cultural herritage.
Along that train of thought, I'd REALLY like to continue the Dikranegertsi dialect, but it is so archaic that the best I can hope for is to preserve (and eventually perform) songs in the dialect. Plus, I am convinced my family has modified the dialect beyond recognition over the years.
Besides the vowels being long, alot of the words are very different. The only example that comes to mind offhand is "juju" instead of "trchun" for bird.
#19
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Posted 11 October 2000 - 03:32 AM
Dear pilafhead,
very funny that Juju! because in my dialect Juju is chicken, Juje is in good persian, so Juju is neither Georgian nor Turkic, very interesting that also in Anatolia they have the same word. My suggestion is to gather people and help each other to preserve your dialect, it is very valuable. Iranian cultural herritage institute usually offers financial and technical support in this respect of preserving languages.However it was a dialect spoken in Anatolia, maybe they also offer support.
Half-Breed jan, Armenian of Transcaucasia and Armenian of Iran have been nearly the same (as you see that the poems of Sayat Nova sound more Parskahay than Hayastantsi !) but under the soviets they intentionally changed the words. My teacher of Armenian language says that Parskahay Armenian is more archaic than modern Hayastantsi Armenian.
very funny that Juju! because in my dialect Juju is chicken, Juje is in good persian, so Juju is neither Georgian nor Turkic, very interesting that also in Anatolia they have the same word. My suggestion is to gather people and help each other to preserve your dialect, it is very valuable. Iranian cultural herritage institute usually offers financial and technical support in this respect of preserving languages.However it was a dialect spoken in Anatolia, maybe they also offer support.
Half-Breed jan, Armenian of Transcaucasia and Armenian of Iran have been nearly the same (as you see that the poems of Sayat Nova sound more Parskahay than Hayastantsi !) but under the soviets they intentionally changed the words. My teacher of Armenian language says that Parskahay Armenian is more archaic than modern Hayastantsi Armenian.
#20
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Posted 11 October 2000 - 04:56 AM
Iranyar,
I think your teacher of Armenian is not well informed. Under the Soviets the only thing that has been changed has been the phonetics of the written language, and even that in a very slight manner. As far as the Barskahay vs. Hayastantsi Armenians are concerned, there are no differences between them beyond the phonetics, and the intonation of the speech. Barskahay is Eastern Armenian dialect, or more specifically, it is the same as Yerevanian.
No words have been changed under the Soviets, but in fact the language has been cleaned from foreign words. The fact that some Russian words are being used has not been a policy, but just some Hayastantsi didn’t bother about the purity of their language, as much as many Western Armenians behave the same way. In fact the Soviet Armenian academic and some state organizations have been fighting for the purity of the language, at least in the last 30 years.
Juju is not an Armenian word. There are a lot of borrowed words in the current Armenian language. The usage of that and similar words is much similar to the word "builchit" in this forum. It is not because there are no analogs in Armenian, but because of the usage of these words by”grandmothers.” These things have happened in all sides of the fence. I consider them to be manifestations of lack of respect or consciousness towards the Armenian language.
I don’t understand why would someone studying Armenian today want to study a non-mainstream dialect? For the sake of what?
[This message has been edited by MJ (edited October 11, 2000).]
I think your teacher of Armenian is not well informed. Under the Soviets the only thing that has been changed has been the phonetics of the written language, and even that in a very slight manner. As far as the Barskahay vs. Hayastantsi Armenians are concerned, there are no differences between them beyond the phonetics, and the intonation of the speech. Barskahay is Eastern Armenian dialect, or more specifically, it is the same as Yerevanian.
No words have been changed under the Soviets, but in fact the language has been cleaned from foreign words. The fact that some Russian words are being used has not been a policy, but just some Hayastantsi didn’t bother about the purity of their language, as much as many Western Armenians behave the same way. In fact the Soviet Armenian academic and some state organizations have been fighting for the purity of the language, at least in the last 30 years.
Juju is not an Armenian word. There are a lot of borrowed words in the current Armenian language. The usage of that and similar words is much similar to the word "builchit" in this forum. It is not because there are no analogs in Armenian, but because of the usage of these words by”grandmothers.” These things have happened in all sides of the fence. I consider them to be manifestations of lack of respect or consciousness towards the Armenian language.
I don’t understand why would someone studying Armenian today want to study a non-mainstream dialect? For the sake of what?
[This message has been edited by MJ (edited October 11, 2000).]
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