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Do you believe in God?


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Poll: Do you believe in God?

Believe/disbelief ratio

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#81 Ashot

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Posted 04 April 2008 - 03:01 PM

Many of us the "Believers" use as much, if not more, logic, reasoning and the use of scientific methods. You being a insufficiently obsequious to religion, religious beliefs and religious believers, not to forget your significant number of the attacks, which makes you intolerant. Rather than learning and sticking to your place in the social pecking order, you are getting uppity by not only demanding full equality, but also saying what you think about the reasonableness or truthfulness of religion.

Naturally, you focus your peevishness not on Muslim extremists (who advertise their hatred and violent intentions) but on the old-time Christian religion. ("Wisdom dwells with prudence," the Good Book teaches.) You can always haul out the abortion-clinic bomber if you need a boogeyman; and you can always argue as if all faiths are interchangeable: Persuade Armenian Christians to give up their infantile attachment to God and maybe Muslims will too.

What is new about you? It's not your arguments. Anyone can spend as much time as they like with a pile of the recent anti-religion books, but they won't encounter a single point they didn't hear in their freshman dormitory. It's your tone that is novel. Belief, in your eyes, is not just misguided but contemptible...

There is no sympathy in you... Twenty-first century hasn't found its H.G. Wells or its George Bernard Shaw, men who flattered their audiences, excited them and persuaded them by making them feel intelligent. You think you are intelligent, you haven't came across anyone that has put you in your own place...

You argue that my belief is unreasonable or irrational, you are being intolerant of my beliefs. You argue that religion does more harm than good and/or is irrational and unreasonable, you are being intolerant of religious believers.. You and your kind are Intolerant, militants that are on the rise which is just like violent religious extremism. You claim to reject God & Religion on the grounds that it breeds hatred & oppressive tradition. Then you go and treat us as inferior beings.

You are worthless...

#82 Arvestaked

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Posted 04 April 2008 - 03:26 PM

Well, most of that didn't make much sense. But I will say that:

(1) I hate all religion and superstition equally because they are all equally unfounded and you can bet that Islam would show up many a time right next Christianity, Judaism, and all other religions in a discussion of corrupted morality.

(2) I don't know what you mean by intolerant. I tolerate religion all day long because people who think like me are only 5% - 10% of the population. Most of my friends have some sort of religious belief. And I will fight for their right to believe it. But they are wrong.

(3) Rhetorically relegating positions to a "freshman dormitory" has no epistomological merit.

(4) The purpose of my position is not to come across as novel. I don't even know what you're trying to suggest with such comments.

(5) Opinions on contributions in literary fiction in the last seven years are completely irrelevant to the nature of the universe.

(6) If one takes his or her time to study the topic and read and understand the multitude of arguments posed by proponents of non-theism one will see that it is unavoidable for any religious or superstitious belief to be considered unscientific, unfounded, unreasonable and illogical. All arguments supporting faith have been completely and successfully addressed. All of them. It's now only a question of whether people chose to see it.

And now I will let you get the last word. Enjoy.


#83 Ashot

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Posted 04 April 2008 - 03:27 PM

I'll let you guess

#84 Anoushik

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Posted 04 April 2008 - 05:31 PM

QUOTE (Arvestaked @ Apr 4 2008, 09:43 AM)
I would like to know whether people who believe this are speaking purely from natural skepticism of religion or whether they have also supplemented their beliefs through the reading of literature by Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett, Christopher Hitchens, Michael Shermer and the like.

I haven't read specifically atheist literature except maybe Bertrand Russell. My thoughts on religion and God have been mostly formed through the years from a moral perspective, namely the problem of evil. However, since you've asked about reading of literature, then I have to mention that Dostoevsky's "Brothers Karamazov" had a great impact on me. My beliefs on God mirror that of Ivan Karamazov.

#85 Arvestaked

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Posted 04 April 2008 - 06:32 PM

QUOTE (Anoushik @ Apr 4 2008, 03:31 PM)
I haven't read specifically atheist literature except maybe Bertrand Russell. My thoughts on religion and God have been mostly formed through the years from a moral perspective, namely the problem of evil. However, since you've asked about reading of literature, then I have to mention that Dostoevsky's "Brothers Karamazov" had a great impact on me. My beliefs on God mirror that of Ivan Karamazov.


I suppose I can assume, as a result of you mentioning Ivan Karamazov, that "the problem of evil" is what keeps you from accepting any specific religious dogma while still not drawing conclusions on the truth value of a god belief. Right?

#86 Anoushik

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Posted 04 April 2008 - 06:47 PM

QUOTE (Arvestaked @ Apr 4 2008, 04:32 PM)
I suppose I can assume, as a result of you mentioning Ivan Karamazov, that "the problem of evil" is what keeps you from accepting any specific religious dogma while still not drawing conclusions on the truth value of a god belief. Right?

That's correct.

#87 aSoldier

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Posted 04 April 2008 - 11:56 PM

QUOTE (Arvestaked @ Apr 5 2008, 05:52 AM)
And the fact that it cracks you up demonstrates beyond doubt that you have not educated yourself on the subject whatsoever. You only decide that what you have been told by other "believers" qualifies as knowledge is enough. Consequently, this deludes you to believing you are educated.


You've never sought God out for yourself, have you?

#88 Arvestaked

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 11:47 AM

QUOTE (aSoldier @ Apr 4 2008, 09:56 PM)
You've never sought God out for yourself, have you?


I have sought reasons for one to be convinced that supernatural entities exist and there are no such reasons. All reasons given fail whether people chose to see that or not.

Anyway, I am sure none of you have sought a god either. Chances are that god was handed to you at birth along with all of your stuffed toys and you just took it because you had no choice. And because humans are programed by evolution to trust their parents for survival reasons, it has become truth to you without due skepticism.

The act if seeking god is meaningless and ridiculous. One can "find" a god anywhere as long as one wants to.

Knowledge is not acquired through surrendering to ones fears and sentiments or to the rhetoric of others: it is acquired through logic, reason and the scientific method. Thus is the best way in which the narrow scope of human perception and understanding can draw truthful conclusions on the nature of the universe.

#89 Arvestaked

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 12:00 PM

QUOTE (Anoushik @ Apr 4 2008, 04:47 PM)
That's correct.


That's fine. Such a position is equivalent to walking half way to the finish line. You stop their because you have no personal interest in going further. All I can tell you is that it is possible to go further. It is possible to have a deeper understanding of how people should and do acquire real knowledge. And that, although one has every right to choose to not educate themselves to that degree on this particular subject, I feel obligated to at least convey that they are not at the finish line; that it is not the terminus of an logical attempt to understand the universe.

#90 LK82

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 09:46 PM

Religion is what: A human perception of historical events which require one to "believe" in something rather then understand it.

I do believe that there is a greater being. I understand that religion is a sensitive topic for many, but I donít understand how one can have a discussion or debate about religion. Religion cannot be proven or debated with an ultimate product/outcome of either side being right or wrong. So why do people waist their time and effort in trying to do this.

Religious people should have the right to defend themselves; all people should have the right to believe in what ever they choose to without fearing persecution by any government or social structure.

I use to be a devout Armenian Orthodox-Christian. But, I have (not because of any professor or education) lost my will to believe. For reasons I don't care to explain.
This doesnít mean that I now live based on an Atheistic agenda or thrive to rid Christianity from society.

Also, if I ever had to side with one religion in a conflict, my decision would be based on intellect, that which is more humane and understanding to the needs of a human-being.

Edited by LK82, 06 April 2008 - 09:59 PM.


#91 Anoushik

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 11:20 PM

QUOTE (Arvestaked @ Apr 6 2008, 10:00 AM)
That's fine. Such a position is equivalent to walking half way to the finish line. You stop their because you have no personal interest in going further. All I can tell you is that it is possible to go further. It is possible to have a deeper understanding of how people should and do acquire real knowledge. And that, although one has every right to choose to not educate themselves to that degree on this particular subject, I feel obligated to at least convey that they are not at the finish line; that it is not the terminus of an logical attempt to understand the universe.

Well, I stop there not because I have no personal interest in going further but because I have no means to go further. It's funny how predictable life is. I read "Sophie's World" when a teenager and I didn't believe it when one of the characters said that as human beings become adults they lose the pursuit of knowledge of our world, mostly due to living our daily life with its numerous problems. I haven't lost the pursuit of knowledge, yet, but I don't have the time to invest in it like before. How do you do it?

#92 Arvestaked

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 11:20 AM

QUOTE (Anoushik @ Apr 6 2008, 10:20 PM)
Well, I stop there not because I have no personal interest in going further but because I have no means to go further. It's funny how predictable life is. I read "Sophie's World" when a teenager and I didn't believe it when one of the characters said that as human beings become adults they lose the pursuit of knowledge of our world, mostly due to living our daily life with its numerous problems. I haven't lost the pursuit of knowledge, yet, but I don't have the time to invest in it like before. How do you do it?



I had a natural and active interest in science and logic and early on felt quite isolated by my views on the subject of the supernatural since in America only 5-10% of the population in non-theistic. That along with curiosity drove me to seek out things that would keep me from feeling entirely alone. There are two hurdles to overtake: knowing where the info is and getting oneself to pursue it. I take the bus to and from work and I read on the trip. I also read during breaks and lunches. Sometimes I run searches on the internet. I've gotten into debates/discussions with people which alows you to refine your perspective and discover what knowledge you're lacking. And I have been interested for years. If you have a genuine interest and you understand that the knowledge is available to you time will guarantee that you develope a strong understanding.

www.talkorigins.org is a good website with an archive of religious arguments and their responses.

I would say "The God Delusion", "God is Not Great", "The End of Faith" and any of Michael Shermers books on the subject would serve as good introductions. Then you can pursue the biological route further with "The Blind Watchmaker" (very fascinating). And all of these books cite other books and studies thereby illuminating other paths that you can take at your discretion. "The Portable Atheist" is an anthology of exerpts of literature on the subject written throughout history, helping to identify all the key players and thereby -- again -- illuminating other paths that you can take at your discretion.

It'll probably be cool to do YouTube searches on Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, Sam Harris, Michael Shermer etc. giving talks.

Also, someone I met recently at a meeting named Bruce A. Smith wrote a book called "The Path of Reason: a Philosophy of Nonbelief." I have not read it yet but he spoke about it and it also seems like a good step by step philosophical process to go from being very religious (which he was) to very nonreligious (which he is).

#93 Arvestaked

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 11:24 AM

QUOTE (LK82 @ Apr 6 2008, 08:46 PM)
Religion is what: A human perception of historical events which require one to "believe" in something rather then understand it.

I do believe that there is a greater being. I understand that religion is a sensitive topic for many, but I donít understand how one can have a discussion or debate about religion. Religion cannot be proven or debated with an ultimate product/outcome of either side being right or wrong. So why do people waist their time and effort in trying to do this.

Religious people should have the right to defend themselves; all people should have the right to believe in what ever they choose to without fearing persecution by any government or social structure.

I use to be a devout Armenian Orthodox-Christian. But, I have (not because of any professor or education) lost my will to believe. For reasons I don't care to explain.
This doesnít mean that I now live based on an Atheistic agenda or thrive to rid Christianity from society.

Also, if I ever had to side with one religion in a conflict, my decision would be based on intellect, that which is more humane and understanding to the needs of a human-being.



I agree that people have the right to believe what they wish. But I don't think they should believe in the supernatural. These are entirely different things. Religion is not benign though many believe it is.

#94 Arpa

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 12:22 PM

Dear Arvestaket, amenaket, all knowing, omniscient.
Have you not noticed that very few of us, if any are interested in this subject.
After all. Whose business it is if one does, does not believe in Astuats, Allah, Koda, Yehovah, God/god, Gotte, Shiva, Deo, Deus or any other "deyous".
Will everyone, please retereat in their inner chambers, contemplate their navels and discover who or what "god" is?
I have said this on numerous occasions. For the 6 billion + inhabitants of this planet, there are 8 million "gods".
Pick your's.

#95 Arvestaked

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 01:24 PM

QUOTE (Arpa @ Apr 7 2008, 11:22 AM)
Have you not noticed that very few of us, if any are interested in this subject.


I don't care. Some may be and some may not know that they can be.

It is on my personal agenda to promote non-theism. With such an agenda I do not expect to be respected/welcomed/understood/appreciated in every environment.

#96 LK82

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 01:47 PM

I would say something about your agenda, but I dont think it would be proper. On the other hand, out of curiousity, what are your views on life, like in general.
How do you see things like, adultry, pornoghraphy, hatred, murder. Im curious because ive never had a serious conversation with a non-deist.
the last time i spoke to one I was a firm believer, and now, well, things have changed.

#97 Arvestaked

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 02:09 PM

QUOTE (LK82 @ Apr 7 2008, 12:47 PM)
I would say something about your agenda, but I dont think it would be proper. On the other hand, out of curiousity, what are your views on life, like in general.
How do you see things like, adultry, pornoghraphy, hatred, murder. Im curious because ive never had a serious conversation with a non-deist.
the last time i spoke to one I was a firm believer, and now, well, things have changed.



You are not a firm believer and yet you have improper things to say about my agenda? Strange.

Adultry, is a form of betrayal of trust. The morality of trust, as with other things, is a product of evolution as it relates to human social structure and society. Nothing can preserve untainted the genuine principles of morals in our judgment of human conduct, but the absolute necessity of these principles to the existence of society. -David Hume

Murder is obvious and plays into the same ideas. Human society evolved from pack and familial relationships and killing for anything other than survival and food is immoral out of necessity.

There is nothing wrong with pornography. Sexual freedom and activity are basic animal rights. People can do with their bodies as they wish as long as they do not encroach on the rights of others. Same goes for prostitution. As a matter of fact, there would far less of both if religion did not create sexually repressed societies.

Hatred. I don't really know what you want me to say about hatred. All I can say is that the human mind developed a certain structure that allows for hatred. Beyond that I would consult psychologists, preferably one with an anthropological bend. I'm not afraid to divulge that I have nothing much to say on the subject because I don't believe an infallible argument for the supernatural is somehow hidden within the nooks and crannies of hatred as an idea.

There is a lot of literature out there on the subject of animal behavior and evolution. I have found that in the puruit of self-education in evolutionary biology you learn not only answers to questions you have but many things you could not even have thought of to quetsion. It is beautiful.


#98 LK82

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 02:37 PM

Itís quite simple actually. The believer is one who trusts in his belief and can answer with eternal salvation when asked to why he acts out his belief. A believer takes personally his belief, and has grown into it, as it has become a part of him. Creating an agenda to rob one of his beliefs is the same as creating an agenda to silence those who donít believe.
The problem is that you have an AGENDA, when you speak so lowly against those who have agendas themselves, i.e. Christianity, or Islam, or any other agenda driven entities.

Like I said I question you because Iím curious to how you would answer it, instead youíve chosen to quote people I must read about to better understand what it is youíre saying.

I was expecting something along the lines of; I think adultery is immoral, or the mate should consider why his spouse is no longer happy and work on fixing this problem, or , sex is a pleasure one must experience in life thru consistency, maybe even that one may love another while enjoying different sexual partners. Different people have different views; do you have any personal views outside of your agenda?

If this line of questioning is to personal then feel free to opt out at any time.

As far as prostitution goes: I think commercialized pornography deteriorates the human body, its in our television sets, the internet, and it leaves an effect on a person when he or she is exposed to this content, and considers it a norm. Those who donít understand that sex is in human nature will not begin to understand if society jumps from one extreme to the other, and makes sex available at any time one chooses.


#99 Anoushik

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 02:45 PM

QUOTE (Arvestaked @ Apr 7 2008, 11:24 AM)
It is on my personal agenda to promote non-theism.

Wow, that's pretty interesting. I've never really met atheists such as yourself who actually have a personal agenda to promote non-theism. What motivates you?

#100 Anoushik

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 02:48 PM

QUOTE (LK82 @ Apr 7 2008, 11:47 AM)
How do you see things like, adultry, pornoghraphy, hatred, murder. Im curious because ive never had a serious conversation with a non-deist.

Why do religious people like to ask this question to non-religious people? Religious people and non-religious people alike can lead corrupt, immoral lives. Religion might condemn such behavior as adultery, pornography, murder, etc., nonetheless it hasn't succeeded in abolishing that behavior among its followers.




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