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Originally posted by THOTH:
Circassian. I am glad that you agree with my posting/views (in this case). Obviously I hold some views perhaps untypical of Armenians at large - regarding certain aspects of Turkey (and perhaps Turks). Are you able to be equally bold/innovative/independent in regards to the status quo on your “side”? After all – you are claiming to wish a dialogue and are for peace and reconciliation…can this occur without some give and take…without some movement on both sides…admissions….understanding…forgiveness…etc? I certainly think that Armenians need to listen to what various Turks are claiming in regards to the Genocide (though certainly we cannot accept the portions which are obviously poorly veiled propaganda), and we must also adjust our rhetoric to not further corner Turks – but allow them to move toward us.
This is more of a balanced view of how to progress.Yes you are correct that I am seeking a dialog - so far you are the only one who is engaging.
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That being the case I still must insist that you are incorrect regarding your claims of lack of evidence of a Genocide (perpetuated by Turks) against Armenians. This evidence is overwhelming (to disagree is IMO an admission of your lack of knowledge or of your a priori conclusions regardless of facts). The evidence exists from all sides - for instance much damning evidence has been produced by Turkey's (Ottoman's) own allies in WWI - the Germans (and to a lesser extent from the Austrians) and of course from the Turks themselves. Immediately after the war there were trials conducted by the Ottoman government where the majority of the key national and a number of regional Young Turk party members were convicted and (most were) sentenced to death for precisely the crime of genocide against the Armenians (and theft of their property which you also seem to discount). Of course there is mountains of eyewitness testimony as well as the fact that in Anatolia the Armenian nation and Armenians are no more - and every Armenian family, including my own, has its story of (organized) death marches, massacres and the like. And the pattern of such accross Anatolia in 1915 is clear. It was centrally directed and ruthlessly carried out. There can be no doubt whatsoever that the intent was the annihilation/complete destruction of the Armenians (by means of killing through massacre and starvation) and that this plan was pre-meditated and pursued with vigor. All evidence confirms this as clear as the truth of my saying that it is so.
Everything that has happened your family has also happened to mine too.The difference is that I am not going round the world & telling everyone how bad the russians are.
Planned extermination & forced re-location & murders of my people still is carried out by russians. I don't know how some armenians on this forum bypass the suffering of group of people not far from yerivan and still insists that they have the moral upperhand.LOL
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Additionally I should mention that the term "Genocide" was first coined/used to describe the massacre of Armenians and destruction of their "nation" at the hand of the Ottoman Turks during this period. Thus the definition of the word was de facto a description of what was observed to be occurring to the Armenians. Does it not strike you then as odd that one might claim that the organized massacres and complete uprooting of Armenians in Anatolia in WWI are not Genocide? - when the word was invented to describe just these events and their impact on a people? You seem like an educated fellow - perhaps the logic of this is within your grasp. Please think on it a bit...if you really must.
I did thought about this for last 3 days.
I asked myself whether it is the "Right" think to do or not.
If we are going to strive for a better world for all concerned , then can we start calling all the similar events before & after armenians "Genocide". That would be the only pre-condition that I would have before progressing further.
All I am asking you to be not so selective in your approach to human suffering - you are only alienating others like yourselves.
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Concerning your point that Turkey will move foreword regardless of the internal dynamics - I could not disagree more. If internal dynamics do not change Turkey will either stagnate and/or disintegrate (and likely turn fundamentalist). So - with that being the case - it is up to (educated and increasingly aware) Turks such as yourself to initiate change of the type that will allow your nation to take the next step. Obviously EU membership is key to this - if you think not....then I hope you are in good with your Mullah...etc. Even if not EU membership - it is the type of reform called for by EU that must occur to force your nation to modernize - (and that there is so much resistance to this is telling...IMO). Additionally - I think a part of this maturation and advancement as a nation/people is historical honesty...(you figure it out).
I would have to disagree with you on the importance of EU membership for turkey.
If as you say the USA drop's turkey because of national interest then we would find another way to exist , we always do , I believe China has a sizeable turkish minority & they would be very happy to help us out against those who wants to see turks
confined to middle of anatolia & surrounded by armenian & kurdish & greek & russian rebuclic-lets. IMHO that is the biggest dream that has ever been sold to yourselves.
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So two questions (plus some extra credit] for you -
1) Can/will Turkey progress while maintaining Kemalism (unmodified) as its central philosophical/political/social core? (and for extra credit - can Turkey progress with the military's role unchanged (and the continued significant/accepted presence of [your buddies] the MHP/gray wolves?)
As long as the russians are implementing their military policy in relation to turks i.e don't leave them(turks) in peace , always make sure there is some trouble with one of the minorities( usually turks & kurds)
- then I really don't see how this situation is going to change.
If I were you , I would not really believe the myth of Kemalism - no such a thing actually exists in the mind of ordinary turks , it's usually turkey's critics who coins the phrase kemalism - not us.
One more thing ; without the participation of " My Buddies" peace between our countries is not quite achievable. I guess I would be representing the mild non-military side of grey-wolves.
Without the legacy of Ataturk , the reigion would of been even more bloodied IMHO.
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2) Can/will Turkey progress (in the world - as a modern nation and to ever emerge out of its relative backwater status) without coming to terms with the shameful deeds of its past (primarily regarding the wholesale destruction of a nation within its midst - the Armenians (and similar treatment of the other Christian minorities) - whether or not you accept the semantic of "Genocide")? Food for thought on #2 - everyone knows you guys (CUP lead Ottoman Empire) did it, the Armenians will never forget and will never let the world forget (and its all in the archives of the West anyway silly...every necessary fact of documentation...more than enough really), and your nation is not fooling anyone (but only your own people)...think about it....)
I look foreword to your answers....and commentary.
[ May 21, 2001: Message edited by: THOTH ]
as far as the semantics concerned ; I can tell you the turks are not going to recognise the "G" word even if takes an eternity & if any one really thinks that the EU money is going to achieve this - then think again please beacuse your calculations are not correct.
I don't think diasporean armenians really understand the modern turks at all.
As for the documentation of attrocities ; you mainly have newspaper reports that state how evil the Turks were.
Considering that these all of these reports were compiled by christians ;
I guess you can see why they are not "Credible" evidence in the eyes of the muslim world which does not seem to count in armenian court somehow.
What matters is how we are going to go further.
Recognition of what you are asking is not going to happen.
if you are saying that the armenians will never shift their stand in relation this claim ; then you are right there is no hope for peacefull co-existence .