102 replies to this topic

[Paul bunyan]

Rich, will you post those "verses"
soon I believe that the book "The Cross and Crescent" contains the koranic words used by the turks to justify
their abominable genocide.

[Hakob]

Friends,

Please read Surah (chapter) Muhammad, Ayyah (verse) #4 in the Qur'an. (ch.47)

Bismillah-ir-Rahman-ir-Raheem

In the name of Allah, the beneficent, the merciful.

(Ch.47, verse 4)---(English translation from the original Arabic).

Whenever you encounter the infidels, seize them and strike their necks until they have been subdued, then tie them up as prisoners, either in order to release them later on or also to ask for ransom, until war lays down her burdens. Thus shall you do-; yet if Allah so wished. He might defend Himself from them-in order that some of you may be tested by means of one another. The ones who have been killed in Allah's way will never find their actions have been in vain. He will guide them and improve their attitude and admit them to the Garden He has acquainted them with.

"NOBLE QUR'AN"---English translation by Thomas Irving.

[Hakob]

Ottoman Turks during Genocide as well as current Arab suicide bombers in Palestine often quote from this chapter and verse.

[Mayja]

it is unfair to use Koran's english translation.Arabic language is very unprecise and contextual. As ulamas always stress that there can be translation of Koran , only interpretation.
Hakob, where from did u get that information about Muslims' wifes?? As far as i know they can marry only Christian and Judaist women, no Hindi women, cos it is considered Paganism

[Mayja]

If u dont mind Hakob, let me correct some lines:

Whenever you encounter the infidels(in fight Jihad in Allah Cause), strike their necks until they have been subdued, then tie them up as captives, either in order to release them later on or also to ask for ransom, until war lays down its burdens. Thus (muslimsare orderedby Allah to continue in carrying out Jihad against the disbelievers till they embrace Islam and are saved from the punishment in the Hell fire or at least come under Allah's protection) shall you do-; yet if Allah so wished. He might defend Himself from them-in order that some of you may be tested by means of one another. The ones who have been killed in Allah's way will never find their actions have been in vain. He will guide them and improve their attitude and admit them to the Garden He has acquainted them with.

[MJ]

It is a shameful practice to to present unfounded allegations in sensitive issues. It is equally shamefull to take things out of their context, and to delibirately misinform people. Moreover, important passages have been dropped.

The tranlation of the Chapter 47, by ABDULLAH YUSUF ALI, one of the well recognised translators of Quran is below.

The translation of the verse 4 shows that the previous translation communicated to our forum has been shamefully and deliberately taken out of the context.

CHAPTER 47

Muhammad, Al Qitaal سورة محمد
( The Prophet Muhammad, The Fighting )


47.1- الذين كفروا وصدوا عن سبيل الله اضل اعمالهم
Those who reject God and hinder (men) from the Path of God,- their deeds will God render astray (from their mark).

47.2- والذين امنوا وعملوا الصالحات وامنوا بمانزل على محمد وهو الحق من ربهم كفر عنهم سيئاتهم واصلح بالهم
But those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, and believe in the (Revelation) sent down to Muhammad - for it is the Truth from their Lord,- He will remove from them their ills and improve their condition.

47.3- ذلك بان الذين كفروا اتبعوا الباطل وان الذين امنوا اتبعوا الحق من ربهم كذلك يضرب الله للناس امثالهم
This because those who reject God follow vanities, while those who believe follow the Truth from their Lord: Thus does God set forth for men their lessons by similitudes.

47.4- فاذا لقيتم الذين كفروا فضرب الرقاب حتى اذا اثخنتموهم فشدوا الوثاق فاما منا بعد واما فداء حتى تضع الحرب اوزارها ذلك ولو يشاء الله لانتصر منهم ولكن ليبلو بعضكم ببعض والذين قتلوا في سبيل الله فلن يضل اعمالهم
Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been God's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of God,- He will never let their deeds be lost.

47.5- سيهديهم ويصلح بالهم
Soon will He guide them and improve their condition,

47.6- ويدخلهم الجنة عرفها لهم
And admit them to the Garden which He has announced for them.

47.7- ياايها الذين امنوا ان تنصروا الله ينصركم ويثبت اقدامكم
O ye who believe! If ye will aid (the cause of) God, He will aid you, and plant your feet firmly.

47.8- والذين كفروا فتعسا لهم واضل اعمالهم
But those who reject (God),- for them is destruction, and (God) will render their deeds astray (from their mark).

47.9- ذلك بانهم كرهوا ماانزل الله فاحبط اعمالهم
That is because they hate the Revelation of God; so He has made their deeds fruitless.

47.10- افلم يسيروا في الارض فينظروا كيف كان عاقبة الذين من قبلهم دمر الله عليهم وللكافرين امثالها
Do they not travel through the earth, and see what was the End of those before them (who did evil)? God brought utter destruction on them, and similar (fates await) those who reject God.

47.11- ذلك بان الله مولى الذين امنوا وان الكافرين لامولى لهم
That is because God is the Protector of those who believe, but those who reject God have no protector.

47.12- ان الله يدخل الذين امنوا وعملوا الصالحات جنات تجري من تحتها الانهار والذين كفروا يتمتعون وياكلون كما تاكل الانعام والنار مثوى لهم
Verily God will admit those who believe and do righteous deeds, to Gardens beneath which rivers flow; while those who reject God will enjoy (this world) and eat as cattle eat; and the Fire will be their abode.

47.13- وكاين من قرية هي اشد قوة من قريتك التي اخرجتك اهلكناهم فلا ناصر لهم
And how many cities, with more power than thy city which has driven thee out, have We destroyed (for their sins)? and there was none to aid them.

47.14- افمن كان على بينة من ربه كمن زين له سوء عمله واتبعوا اهواءهم
Is then one who is on a clear (Path) from his Lord, no better than one to whom the evil of his conduct seems pleasing, and such as follow their own lusts?

47.15- مثل الجنة التي وعد المتقون فيها انهار من ماء غير اسن وانهار من لبن لم يتغير طعمه وانهار من خمر لذة للشاربين وانهار من عسل مصفى ولهم فيها من كل الثمرات ومغفرة من ربهم كمن هو خالد في النار وسقوا ماء حميما فقطع امعاءهم
(Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?

47.16- ومنهم من يستمع اليك حتى اذا خرجوا من عندك قالوا للذين اوتوا العلم ماذا قال انفا اولئك الذين طبع الله على قلوبهم واتبعوا اهواءهم
And among them are men who listen to thee, but in the end, when they go out from thee, they say to those who have received Knowledge, "What is it he said just then?" Such are men whose hearts God has sealed, and who follow their own lusts.

47.17- والذين اهتدوا زادهم هدى واتاهم تقواهم
But to those who receive Guidance, He increases the (light of) Guidance, and bestows on them their Piety and Restraint (from evil).

47.18- فهل ينظرون الا الساعة ان تاتيهم بغتة فقد جاء اشراطها فانى لهم اذا جاءتهم ذكراهم
Do they then only wait for the Hour,- that it should come on them of a sudden? But already have come some tokens thereof, and when it (actually) is on them, how can they benefit then by their admonition?

47.19- فاعلم انه لااله الاالله واستغفر لذنبك وللمؤمنين والمؤمنات والله يعلم متقلبكم ومثواكم
Know, therefore, that there is no god but God, and ask forgiveness for thy fault, and for the men and women who believe: for God knows how ye move about and how ye dwell in your homes.

47.20- ويقول الذين امنوا لولا نزلت سورة فاذا انزلت سورة محكمة وذكر فيها القتال رايت الذين في قلوبهم مرض ينظرون اليك نظر المغشي عليه من الموت فاولى لهم
Those who believe say, "Why is not a sura sent down (for us)?" But when a sura of basic or categorical meaning is revealed, and fighting is mentioned therein, thou wilt see those in whose hearts is a disease looking at thee with a look of one in swoon at the approach of death. But more fitting for them-

47.21- طاعة وقول معروف فاذا عزم الامر فلو صدقوا الله لكان خيرا لهم
Were it to obey and say what is just, and when a matter is resolved on, it were best for them if they were true to God.

47.22- فهل عسيتم ان توليتم ان تفسدوا في الارض وتقطعوا ارحامكم
Then, is it to be expected of you, if ye were put in authority, that ye will do mischief in the land, and break your ties of kith and kin?

47.23- اولئك الذين لعنهم الله فاصمهم واعمى ابصارهم
Such are the men whom God has cursed for He has made them deaf and blinded their sight.

47.24- افلا يتدبرون القران ام على قلوب اقفالها
Do they not then earnestly seek to understand the Qur'an, or are their hearts locked up by them?

47.25- ان الذين ارتدوا على ادبارهم من بعد ماتبين لهم الهدى الشيطان سول لهم واملى لهم
Those who turn back as apostates after Guidance was clearly shown to them,- the Evil One has instigated them and busied them up with false hopes.

47.26- ذلك بانهم قالوا للذين كرهوا مانزل الله سنطيعكم في بعض الامر والله يعلم اسرارهم
This, because they said to those who hate what God has revealed, "We will obey you in part of (this) matter"; but God knows their (inner) secrets.

47.27- فكيف اذا توفتهم الملائكة يضربون وجوههم وادبارهم
But how (will it be) when the angels take their souls at death, and smite their faces and their backs?

47.28- ذلك بانهم اتبعوا مااسخط الله وكرهوا رضوانه فاحبط اعمالهم
This because they followed that which called forth the Wrath of God, and they hated God's good pleasure; so He made their deeds of no effect.

47.29- ام حسب الذين في قلوبهم مرض ان لن يخرج الله اضغانهم
Or do those in whose hearts is a disease, think that God will not bring to light all their rancour?

47.30- ولو نشاء لاريناكهم فلعرفتهم بسيماهم ولتعرفنهم في لحن القول والله يعلم اعمالكم
Had We so wiled, We could have shown them up to thee, and thou shouldst have known them by their marks: but surely thou wilt know them by the tone of their speech! And God knows all that ye do.

47.31- ولنبلونكم حتى نعلم المجاهدين منكم والصابرين ونبلوا اخباركم
And We shall try you until We test those among you who strive their utmost and persevere in patience; and We shall try your reported (mettle).

47.32- ان الذين كفروا وصدوا عن سبيل الله وشاقوا الرسول من بعد ماتبين لهم الهدى لن يضروا الله شيئا وسيحبط اعمالهم
Those who reject God, hinder (men) from the Path of God, and resist the Apostle, after Guidance has been clearly shown to them, will not injure God in the least, but He will make their deeds of no effect.

47.33- ياايها الذين امنوا اطيعوا الله واطيعوا الرسول ولاتبطلوا اعمالكم
O ye who believe! Obey God, and obey the apostle, and make not vain your deeds!

47.34- ان الذين كفروا وصدوا عن سبيل الله ثم ماتوا وهم كفار فلن يغفر الله لهم
Those who reject God, and hinder (men) from the Path of God, then die rejecting God,- God will not forgive them.

47.35- فلا تهنوا وتدعوا الى السلم وانتم الاعلون والله معكم ولن يتركم اعمالكم
Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost: for God is with you, and will never put you in loss for your (good) deeds.

47.36- انما الحياة الدنيا لعب ولهو وان تؤمنوا وتتقوا يؤتكم اجوركم ولايسألكم اموالكم
The life of this world is but play and amusement: and if ye believe and guard against Evil, He will grant you your recompense, and will not ask you (to give up) your possessions.

47.37- ان يسألكموها فيحفكم تبخلوا ويخرج اضغانكم
If He were to ask you for all of them, and press you, ye would covetously withhold, and He would bring out all your ill-feeling.

47.38- هاانتم هؤلاء تدعون لتنفقوا في سبيل الله فمنكم من يبخل ومن يبخل فانما يبخل عن نفسه والله الغني وانتم الغقراء وان تتولوا يستبدل قوما غيركم ثم لايكونوا امثالكم
Behold, ye are those invited to spend (of your substance) in the Way of God: But among you are some that are niggardly. But any who are niggardly are so at the expense of their own souls. But God is free of all wants, and it is ye that are needy. If ye turn back (from the Path), He will substitute in your stead another people; then they would not be like you!
http://mukhtar.home.mindspring.com/

P.S. I am also waiting to see some evidence that Islam encourages rape.

[ July 06, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

[Paul bunyan]

it matters little, this controversy over interpretation. many turks and others muslims have used verses of the koran, to justify with elated glee, the raping, torturing, murdering,of many Christians in Armenia and Greece
and in Europe as well Spain and Croatia, Serbia and Romania, too.
Had they not been stopped very near
the "city of Music" Vienna of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart fame they would certainly have invaded Germany and then on to France and on to England where today instead of Canterbury cathedral there would be today a Mosque and of course many, many, thousands of Christians would have died

[MJ]

The issue here is not the interpretation but rather the integrity of the alleging side.

If Quran doesn’t justify raping, the usage “by many Turks and Muslims of verses of Quran while raping” is of no relevance.

Many Christians from all over the world, including those of Serbia, have raped Muslim women when the opportunity has been given. The rape goes with the armies and military conquests. Men who have been in war for extended period of times become animals. And they take on their victims at the very first opportunity.

The human history is full of atrocities committed by Christians, Taoists, Judaists, pagans, etc. However, no mainstream religion on the earth encourages atrocities, and most of the atrocities are committed by non-religious people, though, frequently in the name of the religion.

[Hakob]

What is the exact meaning of Jihad? Should I ask the modern Muslim scholars educated in the West, or should I find out from hojas in isolated Muslim villages of the Middle East?

I got this article directly from a Tajikistan discussion forum:
http://members.board....com/tajikistan

posted by: "Ayatollah Rock'n'Rollah

Human rights abuses happen in many countries, but never to the proportion and the magnitude of what is happening in Iran and other Islamic countries.
In the last few years, and with no little thanks to the Islamic Revolution of Iran, I noticed that the major human right abuses are perpetrated in the name of religion. I became concerned for the plight of my people in Iran and her neighboring countries and decided to investigate the cause. I asked myself whether all this is because the gentle and peaceful message of Islam is misunderstood and whether there is a way to revive the pure Islam and save my country. It was in this quest that I realized, to my chagrin, that the human right abuses are not deviations from the true Islam but they ARE teachings of Islam.
I realized that in Islam, Man has no rights! All the rights are reserved for Allah. Man has only duties. Among his duties, he has to pray five times a day, believe in the religion of Allah and submit his will, thoughts and intelligence to him. Any independence from Allah, even at the level of thought is punishable by beating, imprisonment and death.

All the Islamic countries have signed the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights; despite that gross violations of human rights happen in almost all of them. The reason is – the laws of Quran and Sharia take precedence over the human rights whenever they are in conflict.

You are in violation of the laws of Quran and Sharia if you apostatize. Apostasy is the biggest sin that Allah cannot forgive. If you decide to turn your back to Islam, you must be killed. The prophet himself killed those who rejected him after they had accepted him and there are many verses in Quran from which the Islamic governments can get their guidelines in killing the apostates. (Q. 2:39,, 3:90-91, 4:89 , 9:66)If you apostatize your marriage with your wife is annulled and your relationship with her is adulterous, which means not only you should be killed for heresy, your wife also should be stoned to death for adultery.

If you are a woman you cannot marry a non-Muslim, or both of you could face death.

If you belong to a religious minority; a Christian or a Jew, you may live but not before paying a penalty tax. This tax that is called Jizyah could be as high as half of your income. This was the amount that the Prophet exacted from the Jews of the Kheibar after he raided that town and killed many of their able men, taking as sex-slaves and maids their young and pretty women.

Torture in Islamic countries is common but it is also inspired by what the Prophet did. Muhammad is reported to have employed torture to force his victims reveal the information that he needed.

The oldest biography of Muhammad called the “Sirat Rasulallah On page 515, tells of Muhammad’s conquest of Kheibar. He ambushed this city without any provocation, and. “Kinana al-Rabi, who had the custody of the treasure of Banu Nadir, was brought to the apostle who asked him about it. He denied that he knew where it was. A Jew came (Tabari says “was brought” , to the apostle and said that he had seen Kinana going round a certain ruin every morning early. When the apostle said to Kinana, “Do you know that if we find you have it I shall kill you?” He said, “Yes”. The apostle gave orders that the ruin was to be excavated and some of the treasure was found. When he asked him about the rest he refused to produce it, so the apostle gave orders to al-Zubayr Al-Awwam, “Torture him until you extract what he has.” So he kindled a fire with flint and steel on his chest until he was nearly dead. Then the apostle delivered him to Muhammad b. Maslama and he struck off his head, in revenge for his brother Mahmud.” Taken from “The Life of Muhammad”, or Sirat Rasulallah”, translated by A. Guillaume, page 515.

One wonders why the same angle Gabriel who told the Prophet about the plot of the Banu Nadir against his life, a plot that no one heard of except the Prophet, thus giving him the excuse to exterminate that tribe and confiscate all their property, did not come to tell him where the treasure was hidden, forcing the impeccable and compassionate mercy of God amongst men to commit such horrendous act with another human being?

Muhammad himself raped the captured women in his raids. Rayhana and Safiya from the Jewish tribes of Banu Quraiza and Banu Nadir were the shares of the Prophet and were allotted to him before other Muslim warriors could get their share of their sex slaves.

Assassinations is the preferred Method of the Islamic regime of Iran. Hundreds of dissidents, whether inside of Iran or outside, have been eliminated by this way. Not surprisingly it was Muhammad who set the example. More than a dozen of people were assassinated by the followers of Muhammad and at his behest. One of them was a 120-year-old man called Abu Afak whose crime was to mock the Prophet in the street. Another one was Asma Bint Marwan who composed a lyric cursing the Arabs for letting Muhammad get away with his crimes. The Prophet asked: “Who will get me rid of her”?. “Umayr b. Adiy al-Khatmi who was with him heard him, and that very night he went to her house and killed her. In the morning he came to the apostle and told him what he had done and he [Muhammad] said, “You have helped God and His apostle, O Umayr!” When he asked if he would have to bear any evil consequences the apostle said, “Two goats won’t butt their heads about her”.

Asma was the mother of 5 small children. When her assassin came to her, she was asleep and her youngest baby suckling from her breast.

Every torture, every cruelty, every inhumanity perpetrated by Muslims in authority is inspired by the words and the deeds of the Prophet and can be found in Quran and hadith, the two sources of guidance for 1.1 billion Muslims worldwide.

This is a long subject and one could write a book about it.. Human rights violations cannot stop while Islam dominates the minds and the hearts of these people. The violence perpetrated by the Muslims is not limited to the Islamic countries. Although the Muslims are the primary victims of this cult, the West is not immune to Islamic terrorism. With the growth of the Muslim population in European and American countries, the inhabitants of these two continents could expect to see more terrorisms, World Trade Center style, and more loss of innocent lives.

The United States, Canada and all the European countries expend millions and millions of dollars to counter terrorism. But the sad reality is that Islamic terrorism is not the problem but the symptom of the problem. It is Islam that rears terrorists. You fight one terrorist group, ten more emerge from beneath the rock. “Fundamentalism is the poisonous branch of the poisonous tree of Islam” says Taslima Nasrin, the Bangali doctor who’s death is now decreed by the Muslims Ulama, “as long as the tree is standing these poisonous branches will keep shooting out”. To eliminate Islamic terrorism we have no option but to eliminate Islam.

Despite the anger and the threats of violence by the Muslim fundamentalists, Islam is a very vulnerable religion. The majority of Muslims are not aware of the inhumane teachings of Islam. The best part of them will leave Islam once they learn the bitter truth about it.

This is why I have dedicated my energy and life and have embarked on the self imposed mission to introduce the real Islam to the world, stop this insanity, bring common sense, call for unity of human kind, promote equality of the genders and advance science and reason

[Hakob]

If there are any Muslim friends/visitors to this thread and have read what they do not want to read, then I sincerely apologize toward any ill feelings generated from this.

Yet, I don't hold back what I have posted (actually cut and pasted).

The issue is an emotional one for me. My people have dealt with it for more than one thousand years. It was as if we were cursed.