Jump to content


Photo

The Turmoil of The Armenian Apostolic Church!


  • Please log in to reply
11 replies to this topic

#1 man

man

    Member

  • Banned
  • PipPipPip
  • 846 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 17 October 2013 - 08:06 AM

Is Antichrist Attacking, besides the Catholic Church, The Armenian Apostolic Church Also?

And the Lord Jesus said to Peter, “Simon, Simon! Behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat." Luke 22:31 KJV. Currently we see the Armenian Apostolic Church in the same situation where Satan is sifting it mercilessly.

In the next verse, Luke 22:32, we see Jesus saying to Peter: but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again (after being sifted), strengthen your brothers.”

In the same way we see currently the Armenian Apostolic Church under attack by satan, and without a bridge over troubled waters; will it survive or sink below waters? Will it turn back and serve the Armenians with all their heart after being sifted? Personally I do not see any wrong of the Armenian clergy engaging in business as long as with the profits they help or give their profits to the poor of Armenia where currently one from 10 families pass the day hungry.


Here is a recent article:

TURBULENT PERIOD FOR THE CHURCH IN ARMENIA
by Armen Karapetian,

The author is a freelance journalist in Armenia. Institute for War & Peace Reporting
October 17, 2013, Stephane © armenews.com

Translated from French.
http://www.armenews....d_article=93767

The Armenian Apostolic Church held its first General Synod for nearly six centuries, but the event was rocked by a scandal.

The council, which was held from September 24 to 27 was the first since 1441. It brought together religious leaders of the Holy See of Etchmiadzin in Armenia, the seat of Cilicia in Lebanon, and the patriarchs of Jerusalem and Constantinople, which together have ten million followers.

The Synod adopted a measure paving the way for the collective canonization of all those killed in Ottoman Turkey in 1915 in the so-called Armenian genocide, and also discussed issues such as the liturgy, education and social mission of the Church.

Observers suspected that behind closed doors, bishops and archbishops together have spent more time on the scandal and controversy sowed divisions in Armenia and the Diaspora. The Armenian Apostolic Church is the oldest in the world, and survived the persecution and massacres during its many centuries of existence, remains an essential element of national identity. The current turmoil, however, are considered unprecedented. At the end of May, the newspaper Hetq Yerevan published an article accusing a senior cleric, the Archbishop Navasard Kchoyan [ksoyan], to be associated with Prime Minister Tigran Sargsyan and a businessman Ashot Sukiasyan for create an offshore company that has received several million dollars of misappropriated funds.

After the article came out, Sukiasyan wrote to the newspaper claiming to be responsible for the full responsibility for this situation. Bishop Ksoyan and Prime Minister Sarkisian both denied any wrongdoing.

Prosecutors have opened a criminal case, which means that a lawsuit is a possibility. Sukiasyan left Armenia.

Bishop Ksoyan is a prominent figure of the Armenian Church, and some have seen as a possible successor to the Catholicos of All Armenians Karekin II Armen Badalyan, an analyst at the Centre for Policy Studies in Yerevan, said that the case showed how the church had become closely linked with political and business groups that support Armenia. "In his attempts to find a justification for its existence, ... Government adopted the church as an ally. In return, the senior clerics have seen granted privileges "said Badalyan. "The result is that instead of focusing on society and help him with his problems, the church focuses on the government."

Stepan Danielyan, Head of Cooperation for Democracy Center and editor of the site www.religions.am, said that the establishment of the church has been mired by controversy, some clergy undertake in activities and support of the political authorities.

"The Church continues to lose influence. When Armenia became independent after the collapse of the Soviet Union, much has been expected of the church, but these expectations have not been met "Has he told IWPR. "The Church continues to ignore the face quxquelles things most people are concerned about - the social, economic and political vital and endless corruption scandals."

Another point of contention is the synod the resignation of Archbishop Norvan Zakaryan, the head of the church for the large Armenian community in France. In July, the Archbishop Zakaryan wrote to  Catholicos Karekin accusing Karekin of ill-treating him.

"You gain pleasure in humiliating me and blacken my name. You're probably not even aware that you hit people's feelings, "he wrote. The archbishop continued by offering his resignation, which was duly accepted the Catholicos.

At the beginning of August, Nurhan Manoukian, Patriarch of Jerusalem, entered the fray, criticizing the Catholicos Karekin for allowing Archbishop Zakaryan to resign.

"A healthy generation can not grow in an atmosphere of fear and threats.This will hurt our people and our church, which - more than ever - need priests educated, honest and pure, not toadies "wrote the patriarch.

The Catholicos has not responded publicly to the letter, but his spokesman Vahram Melikian denied that he was authoritarian in style.

"The gathering of bishops at the end of September is strong evidence of how the church is trying to solve its problems by taking all opinions into account," Melikyan said at a press conference. "It is inevitable that there are differences of opinion within the church, but that does not mean that there are different factions in the church or something like that, or there was a battle between them. "
http://www.armenews....d_article=93767

Currently the owner of the blog http://www.keghart.com/ who is not a clergy, neither a servant of Jesus, has been writing against the current Armenian Apostolic Hierarchy.



#2 man

man

    Member

  • Banned
  • PipPipPip
  • 846 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 17 October 2013 - 08:40 AM

In an editorial on 8 Aug. 2013 the website or blog ( http://www.keghart.com ) writes how Satan is directing accusations against the Armenian Apostolic Church: "The accusations leveled are in the many scores: Fraud, moral turpitude, corruption, autocracy, the decline of Echmiadzin clergy’s morals and morale, malaise among the clergy…the litany goes on…inclusive of the Seven Deadly Sins and some."

At to Etchmiadzin's recent Episcopal Synod (Sept. 24 to 27, 2013) "When only 8% of Apostolic Armenians attend church with any regularity," writes the editorial of the same blog on 5 Oct. 2013, "the bishops dwelled on the wording of sacraments, confirmation, baptism, Chrismation and other top-of-mind rituals".

 

The same editorial is asserting that cults like Jehova Witness and Mormons are flourishing in Armenia, and stealing souls, because of this same malaise in the Apostolic Church in Armenia when Apostolic Armenians are being disappointed and losing their hope and faith on their Apostolic Church.



#3 onjig

onjig

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 948 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ranch in Sierra Nevada Mountains, California, Ranch in Nevada
  • Interests:Family, Armenia, Armenians,skiing, crop, too much to list.

Posted 18 October 2013 - 11:23 AM

This keghart ugly faceing us from the side. Sounds like a fraud guilty of moral turpitude himself. What wonderful things has he done for the Armenian people or their Church. Does he have a love for ether? Doesn't sound like it.



#4 man

man

    Member

  • Banned
  • PipPipPip
  • 846 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 19 October 2013 - 08:59 AM

I do not know "onjig" who they are and where they are located, in Armenia or in France! Are they leftists or rightists? Are they Christians or pagans? I did not want to waste more time to look-out. What was important to me that satan can use anyone to attack another or an institution and that is why I brought this to attention in the forum. I would pray both for the Apostolic Church and the people of the blog Keghart.


Edited by man, 19 October 2013 - 09:01 AM.


#5 Yervant1

Yervant1

    The True North!

  • Super Moderator
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,086 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 19 October 2013 - 10:33 AM

Who knows? Maybe they are telling the ugly truth. Are you guys naïve to believe that there is no corruption in the Armenian church? Enough said already!

#6 Yervant1

Yervant1

    The True North!

  • Super Moderator
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,086 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 21 October 2013 - 10:27 AM

Criticize, but decently

October 19 2013


Our high-rank clergymen need to get used to current situation, when
they are not beyond criticism, and when we, the ordinary believers,
express our dissatisfaction regarding their, to say the least,
intemperate behavior. However, the criticism is beautiful within its
reasonable limits; there is nothing sound in rude and arrogant attacks
of the Catholicos and the Holy See. Calling my church leader a `devil'
is sacrilege, obscenity and injustice. Apart from everything, it is
offensive, first of all, to me as a representative of given faith. (To
the point, despite knowing that ardent opponents `are going to
attack', I must say that I support the harshest critics of present or
former presidents, but insulting, humiliating qualification are
unpleasant to me, they offend my dignity as a citizen). Karekin II is
not a devil at all, he is a ordinary Armenian high-ranking official
with the mercenaries typical to given environment, with intellectual
level and with completely lack of `spiritual fire'. The current
Patriarch is neither the first nor the last Catholicos of our history,
who does not have the qualities of being a spiritual leader. Bishop at
Shirak Diocese of the Armenian Apostolic Church Michael Ajapahyan, to
confirm that `who is not an Apostolic, he is not an Armenian', in my
opinion, a wrong and splitting thesis, says that to understand the
music of Komitas you definitely need to be a man of our faith. Let's
leave aside the circumstance that in this case to understand Bach's
music you should be a Catholic, and thus we admit by default that Bach
belong only to Catholics, and Komitas is only ours. I just wanted to
remind how the relations of our prominent musician and `bosses' of the
Holy See are arranged after the death of Catholicos Khrimian Hayrik.
They were relations between the talented individual and average,
spiritually self-contained leaders. Thus, `shining' among the priests
are as rare as in other specialties. ... As a response to my criticism
to the high clergymen, the following `murderous' counterargument is
usually brought: `and are you perfect to write such things, first,
consider the beam of timber that is in your own eye.' Of course, there
are thousands logical answers to it, but I will try to find the
shortest. No, I am not perfect, I am too far from being perfect. We
all have a long way to go. His Holiness, too.


Aram Abrahamyan
Read more at: http://en.aravot.am/2013/10/19/162092/

 



#7 man

man

    Member

  • Banned
  • PipPipPip
  • 846 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 22 October 2013 - 10:20 AM

Press Release from: THE DIOCESE OF THE ARMENIAN CHURCH OF FRANCE

Translated from French

L’Assemblée des Délégués du Diocèse de France de l’Eglise Apostolique Arménienne (ADD), The Assembly of the Delegates of the Diocese of France of the Armenian Apostolic Church, the Delegates met in special session Saturday, October 19, 2013 in the parish hall of the Church of Saint Gregory the Illuminator in Marseille Beaumont.

When this Assembly, delegates discussed the conditions and consequences of the resignation of Bishop Norvan ZAKARIAN its function Primate of the Diocese as of 1 November 2013. The following resolutions were adopted:

--ADD, wishes to express its rejection of the resignation of the Primate, Archbishop Norvan ZAKARIAN and deep sadness of not being able to see that the finality of it.

--ADD deeply regrets the circumstances that led to the resignation of Bishop Norvan ZAKARIAN. Referring to the Christian spirit, ADD invites SS Karekin II and Archbishop Norvan ZAKARIAN to start a dialogue in order to achieve a short term reconciliation desired by all, and for which the Diocese of France wants to contribute with all his strength .

--ADD expresses the wish that the faithful continue to benefit from the presence of Bishop Norvan ZAKARIAN within the community in France and is committed to making him the honors he deserves for the quality of his priesthood and his dedication the service of our Holy Church and the Holy See of Etchmiadzin.

--ADD, takes note of the election by the Diocesan Council (pursuant to art. 17 B) 8) of the statutes) of Father Mesrob Parsamyan, Vicar of the southern region, as Locum Tenens of the Diocese from November 1, 2013, until the inauguration of the new Primate. ADD, informed of the procedure for the election of the new Primate, asked the Diocesan Council to organize meetings between the three candidates who will be selected in accordance with art. 18 a) 2)) of the statutes and the members of the ADD, and as far as possible with the faithful, in order to enable them to develop their opinion and vote of conscience.

--ADD decides to meet November 16, 2013 at 10am in Paris and asked the CD to submit a nomination of candidates, a provisional program of meetings with them, and proposed dates for the election of the new Primate.

--ADD, expresses the wish that the new Primate, continue the task initiated by Bishop Norvan ZAKARIAN continues to improve the organization of the diocese in connection with religious and lay delegates, or listening to the faithful of our Church, and unifying for our church today rich in its diversity, continues his work that combines faith and nation, while confirming its place in the ecumenical dialogue in France.
Paris, October 20, 2013  http://www.armenews....d_article=94132



#8 Yervant1

Yervant1

    The True North!

  • Super Moderator
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,086 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 22 October 2013 - 10:40 AM

Catholicos Karekin II Stands Accused

Keghart-Logo-Banner.jpgEditorial, 8 August 2013

Addendum - Publisher's Note, 13 August 2013
Contributors: V. Mekhitarian, M. Kojayan, D. Abrahamian
Compiled and edited by Jirair Tutunjian

Faced with local or national crisis most Armenians go into two modes these days: “Let’s not wash our dirty laundry in public” orcatholicos-karekin-ii-pix.jpg “Exposure is the first step in resolving a crisis.” In the past few months a scandal—immense, terrifying and excoriating—has crashed into our national public arena. It’s no less than the management style and reputation of the Catholicos of All Armenians Karekin II. As catholicos, he is not just the spiritual leader of the Armenian Apostolic Church, but is almost as important to the Armenian Nation as the president of Armenia. A smear on the catholicos is a smear on our Nation—even on those who are members of the Cilicia See, are Catholic, Protestant… atheist.

The critics of Catholicos Karekin II have circulated petitions, published open letters and articles, convened meetings, commented on the electronic media, and some have even demanded the resignation of the catholicos. The accusations leveled are in the many scores: Fraud, moral turpitude, corruption, autocracy, the decline of Echmiadzin clergy’s morals and morale, malaise among the clergy…the litany goes on…inclusive of the Seven Deadly Sins and some. A diatribe orgy? Hidden agendas by his enemies or enemies of the Church? Far-fetched allegations? Poison letters? Here is a compilation of the alleged failings of the catholicos.

1. Catholicos Karekin II was elected (1999) through widespread fraud, thanks to the help of former President Robert Kocharian and Armenia oligarchs. Intimidation and bribes were used to get pro-Karekin votes. The $3-million bribe came from wealthy Diaspora donors, particularly from a famed family of benefactors.

Human rights worker Ara K. Manoogian of Los Angeles has aired graphic data on how the catholicos was fraudulently elected. To summarize Manoogian’s main point, the delegations from Russia and Armenia were illegally allowed a far greater number of votes than their congregation numbers justified. Manoogian, the nephew of the late Patriarch Torkom Manoogian of Jerusalem, also says that his uncle told him about the election fraud and that he had protested to Catholicos Karekin II about the blatant chicanery but to no avail.

As well, a month prior to the election, a number of archbishops released a statement which said that Armenia authorities “at the highest level have come to a consensus in favor of one candidate and are trying to install him on the throne.” The reference was to the future Catholicos Karekin II. 

2. The catholicos has fathered two children. A photo of one of his supposed offspring is on the Internet. There’s also talk that he is too intimate with a female North American donor.

3. He lacks sound knowledge of theology; knows little of the history and traditions of the Armenian Church. Despite his studies in Armenia and in Europe, he has superficial academic grounding. He even stumbles when reciting the Lord’s Prayer. There’s doubt whether he is a believer.

4. He has no spiritual grace or dignity. He is the dictatorial manager of Echmiadzin, an oligarch in royal purple soutane.

5. He has monopolized all authority as supreme judge, as head of the legislative body, as president of the Supreme Spiritual Council and as head of the College of Bishops. Transparency and accountability are foreign concepts to him.

6. He is rude, crude, common, capricious, unjust, uncouth, intemperate, incompetent, vicious, vain, venal, abusive, authoritarian, glory- and money-seeking, lacks spirituality, and is secretive….It’s not even certain whether he was born in 1951 or 1954.

7. Under his management, Holy Echmiadzin has become a cesspool of intrigue, suspicion, fear, jealousy, intimidation, and nepotism. His Stalinist-Berian style has turned Echmiadzin into a snake-pit.

8. Under his watch, senior Armenia clergymen have fathered children and lead extravagant lives. One of them—Archbishop Navasart Kjoyan, head of the Araratian Diocese—owns a Bentley, one of the most expensive cars anywhere. Kjoyan is also accused of involvement in an off-shore financial scam.

9. Homosexuality among Armenia and Diaspora clergy is another failing the catholicos hasn’t addressed.

10. Under his watch, senior Armenia clergymen have become businessmen and owners of companies. In addition to Archbishop Kjoyan, another clergyman-businessman is Bishop Abraham Mkrchyan of Vayots Dzor. He owns several mini-hydro plants.

11. As an oligarch, the catholicos is part owner of a Yerevan minibus company.

12. He has appropriated property belonging to the Church.

13. He has neglected the restoration of crumbling historical monastic buildings while spending $309,000 to purchase seven Toyotas. To avoid VAT payments, he alleged the money was donated by oligarch Samvel Karapetyan, owner of Tashir Corp. The catholicos’ “neglect” of historic church buildings has been described as “cultural genocide against Medieval Armenian churches and monasteries.”

14. His behavior and that of his Armenia clergy have driven thousands of Armenians into the arms of cults such as the Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Mormons.

15. He has defrocked at least 160 archbishops, bishops, clergymen, and deacons. Never in the 1,700-year history of the Armenian Church have so many clergymen been dismissed for non-heretical reasons. His mass defrocking has been described as “a reign of terror” and “spiritual massacre of the Armenian Apostolic Church”. As a result of his capricious defrocking binge, he was rebuked by Patriarch Mesrob II Mutafyan of Istanbul. The Patriarch pointed out to him-- when a certain senior clergyman was defrocked peremptorily--that if the accusation is clear and evidential “a review board must be formed, the subject accused must be given the opportunity for self defense.” The patriarch also accused the catholicos of interfering in patriarchate affairs.  

16. When he defrocked Archbishop Tiran Kyoureghyan of the New Nakhichevan Diocese, for alleged disobedience, Catholicos Karekin II installed his own brother—a priest—as primate.

17. To hide his mediocrity and limited intellectual capacity, he has driven his contemporaries from Echmiadzin, according to a group of Canadian-Armenians.

18. He didn’t condemn the recent fraudulent presidential elections. Instead, he extended his blessing at Serge Sarkissian’s inauguration.

19. His crude and immature behavior during his meeting with Catholicos Elia II of Georgia embarrassed the Armenian Church, Armenia, and Georgian Armenians. As such, he is a harmful representative of the Armenian Church and Nation.

20. He blundered, for the nth time, in his ecumenical responsibilities when he treated the Jerusalem and Istanbul Patriarchates as if these august Sees were minor diocesan entities. An irritated Patriarch Nurhan Manougian of Jerusalem announced earlier this month that he would not attend an upcoming meeting of senior churchmen, organized by the catholicos. He like, the patriarch in Istanbul, expressed his displeasure with the catholicos’ inexplicable tactics to precipitate the resignation of Archbishop Norvan Zakarian, the long-time and popular Primate of France.

21.While visiting Jerusalem a few years ago, the catholicos threatened senior clergymen of the Sts. James’ Brotherhood and said: “I will strip all of you of your ranks.”

22. He attempted, in Western Europe (e.g. Switzerland) to centralize the management of the various churches. The French-Armenia community publicly condemned his heavy-handed interference in the internal administrative affairs of the French diocese.

23. He supported convicted criminal clergyman (Fr. Vatche Hayrabedian) against Archbishop Zakaryan. When Hayrabedian was the pastor of the church in Nice, his congregation pleaded with the catholicos to remove the disreputable clergyman. Their pleas were ignored.

In the past 1,700 years at least 15 times Armenian catholicoi have been removed or forced to resign. The first to be deposed was Kristapor II Apahooni in 630; the last Yeprem I of Tsoragegh in 1830. We don’t know if any of the grotesque accusations leveled against Catholicos Karekin II are justified, but if even 10% of the allegations are well-founded, the Catholicos of All Armenians has no option but to resign. The longer this wound festers the worse it would be for the Church and the Nation. And those in the “bien-pensant” corner who say we should not talk (“dzamots tartsank” in Armenian) about these accusations for we would be aiding our enemies, we say the days of covering up the truth are long gone. The cat is out of the bag. How could the Church survive when these accusations hang over the head of its supreme leader? As well, keeping silent would surely help make the Church and clergy irrelevant.

Even at the best of times we can’t afford an undeserving catholicos. Considering that the Armenian Nation is groping through precarious and tumultuous times, we cannot tolerate a catholicos who has lost his moral compass and doesn’t belong on the Echmiadzin throne.  The existential challenges we face leave no room for a catholicos who, according to his accusers, behaves like a modern-day Roderigo Borgia (Pope Alexander VI).

The nation waits for Catholicos Karekin II to reply to the charges.



#9 man

man

    Member

  • Banned
  • PipPipPip
  • 846 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 22 October 2013 - 02:02 PM

The Armenian Church is Held Hostage by Its Hierarchy: Part 2
by Vosgan Mekhitarian  (the author Vasgan: Please do not exploit our devotion and faith in the Armenian Church. If these conditions are not corrected, in all likelihood, they will create further disunity and discord, thus threatening the existence of our nation.) If "Jesus is the Savior of the World" then He is the Savior of Armenia since Armenia is part of the world. Taking our eyes off Jesus is what will be threatening the existence of our nation (and may I add our souls) Mr. Vasgan the author. Pray that Jesus will anoint your eyes for you to see

 

21 Oct. 2013
MORE details at: http://hetq.am/eng/o...chy-part-2.html

Having looked at the various [human] types of law that govern the human condition [except the Law of God of which the author is mostly ignorant], how should one regard the relationship between the Holy See of Etchmiadzin and the Patriarchate of Jerusalem? We maintain the public be the judge.

Before analyzing [the Armenian Patriarchate of Jerusalem] Nourhan Patriarch’s letter of protest, it is important to pay attention to the sentiments and discontent of our readers, i.e., that the relationship between the two patriarchates of Jerusalem and Istanbul is in a state of discord. During the last Jerusalem patriarchal elections, Catholicos Kareken II attempted to interfere and manipulate the situation but was thwarted.

Furthermore, while late Torkom Patriarch was the Locum tenant in Etchmiadzin, he attested to the corruption of the Nersisyan clan and was courageous enough to express his opinions and make recommendations, which were not cordially received by Archbishop Karekin Nersisyan and his clan.

Let’s return to the protest letter dated August 3, 2013, and analyze the impetus for Nourhan Patriarch to officially pen and submit such a letter.

Foremost, the letter was written in a brotherly spirit, a letter addressed to his big brother, Catholicos Karekin the II.

Second was the final decision of the Supreme Religious Council to accept Archbishop Norvan’s resignation from his post as Primate of France. The non-elected and irresponsible members of the Religious Council, did not have the courage and integrity to question His Holiness Karekin the II and under duress and pressure, took the degrading decision to accept the resignation of Archbishop Norvan. What would they think if, instead of Archbishop Norvan, one of them had their own integrity questioned and their spineless “brothers” took such a heartless decision? They would probably curse the day they joined the ranks of the clergy.

It is understandable and only just that a brother should be able to advice his older brother to be lenient and considerate of another brother, even though there are some misunderstandings, and that the latter deserves punishment commensurate with his transgression. But in a situation like this, where there is injustice perpetrated, it is unconscionable to stand by and let a brother be sacrificed and become the target of vengeance. After mentioning in his letter that the decision was “unacceptable and unjust”, Patriarch Nourhan [the Armenian Patriarchate of Jerusalem] suggests that his Holiness should act with forgiveness towards his younger brothers.

“ Two years ago you (Karekin II) tried to convince Torkom Patriarch to elect Co-adjutor  and when Archbishop Aris Shirvanian objected saying that there is no such Article in the Jerusalem Patriarchal constitution, you were furious and declared ‘I will defrock all of you’, and furthermore you repeated the same to me and my answer was ‘Is this how you will threaten every one? Don’t you know anything else’?”  [It's said that even he treatened the one of Atrsakh to resign]

It is very likely that this threat has seriously affected all members of the Jerusalem Patriarchate. Indeed it is very sad, but it reflects a reality, a reality that is unlawful, unjust and non-Christian, and unfortunately this kind of behavior is practiced in both Catholicosates--Etchmiadzin and Antelias.

The last piece of advice given by Nourhan Patriarch [the Armenian Patriarchate of Jerusalem], where he says that “it is impossible to bring up and prepare a healthy- minded new generation of clergy under pressure and dictatorship”, is a sad commentary on the state of affairs in the church, which is not only widely expressed in the general newspapers, but is also expressed by members of the clergy, who are currently suffocated and muzzled under the dictatorship of the Catholicos.

The bishops that participated in the conference, especially those who grew up in the Jerusalem Patriarchate, knew all these facts, but did not have the courage to bring this subject up for discussion at the Bishops’ conference. What will the young generation of clergy think? One can only shudder to imagine what the impact of that letter will be on the psyche of the clergy.

2 Comments to Vasgan's article:
1. American Hye 11:03 - 21 October, 2013
Church exists for people to strengthen their relationship with God. Democracy is not required for a church to thrive, democracy may not even be helpful. The idea of an Armenian Church governed "of, by, and for the people" is a clearly American idea - that phrase comes from the U.S. Constitution. Armenian clergy in Armenia are very careful to resist such foreign ideas, and perhaps they should. But outside of the Armenian Liturgy, there is a clear lack of Christian teaching in Armenian churches. The Armenian Liturgy is beautiful in its praise of God. But outside of the Liturgy, there is an excessive and bizarre focus on race, ethnicity, and overall "Armenianness", such as in sermons and during non-liturgical gatherings. This is a danger to Christianity, a disservice to those believers seeking God and Communion with other believers. The canonization of over a million genocide victims continues the strangeness. How about merely canonizing those victims who clearly lived holy lives and devoted themselves to God, people whom we regard as having attained their reward in God's Kingdom? Armenians exterminated by Turks because they were Armenian is lamentable, and we lament the brutality every day of our lives, but are these the kinds of people who have shown us how to love God? I don't think so. If the Bishop's Synod will not even consider discussing these simple questions, then I will have to practice my Christian faith elsewhere. Armenian church is yet another failed Armenian institution, where people mainly seek to show off their clothes and cars, and to bask in their own glory. Such environments are anything but Christian.
2. Not Hye 17:24 - 21 October, 2013
Since his Beatitude Archbishop Nourhan Manougian took his position, he has been showing leadership and has already made positive changes to the Armenian Patriarchate of Jerusalem. I am not surprised to read this article and learn that again he showed that he is the right man to lead, to teach and mentor and be a symbol of good and Christianity.

===========
in part 1 of Oct. 6: The Armenian Church is Held Hostage by Its Hierarchy: Part 1
http://hetq.am/eng/o...chy-part-1.html
Vosgan Mekhitarian wrote:

The most recent Synod conference, which took place in Etchmiadzin from September 24 -27 of this year.....The topics and issues discussed were clearly secondary and non-essential in nature,.....One cannot understand why the Synod did not address the most crucial issues that threaten the stability of the church’s foundation, the threats that are related to the internal life of the church and the collective and private lives of our people.  Why is it that no one from the participating clergy addressed the following issues?

    --The letter of protest of the Patriarch of Jerusalem, His Beatitude Archbishop Nourhan Manougian—addressed to his Holiness Karekin II—and the impact of that letter on the psyche of the clergy.
   

--The resignation letter of the Primate of France, His Eminence Archbishop Norvan Zakarian and the impact of that letter on the psyche of the coming generation of the clergy.
   

--The illegal election of the Supreme Council of the Armenian Church in Holy Etchmiadzin.
   

--The re-evaluation of the spiritual mission of the clergy and the requirement to abstain from involvement in secular businesses.
   

--How to revitalize the spiritual life of the church and reflect it in the daily lives of ordinary people. In other words, the issue of being the guiding light and spiritual compass of the people.
   

--To stay away from all secular wealth and to focus on, and to understand and heal the spiritual wounds of the people.
   

--The church, as a “hospital-in-the-battlefield,” needs to heal the wounds of its soldiers and to reassure the hearts of the faithful and give them hope for the future.
   

--The church has to develop an appropriate standpoint regarding gender issues, specifically as it relates to women and their place in the daily life of the church.  The church cannot subsist without a comprehensive understanding of women and their role in it.
   

--The most crucial issue of celibacy of the clergy (the quasi-married status (legal/non legal) of high-ranking clergy). A solution needs to be found to end this nefarious practice.
   

--The covert and surreptitious practice of homosexuality in the church.
   

--The church must have a clear stand regarding abortions and must articulate it unambiguously, as they have direct implications for the survival of our nation.

In the future, we [Vasgan the author] will evaluate and analyze individually issues that are mentioned here and we will suggest reasonable solutions.  
Please do not exploit our [Vasgan the author] devotion and faith in the Armenian Church. If these conditions are not corrected, in all likelihood, they will create further disunity and discord, thus threatening the existence of our nation.   

If "Jesus is the Savior of the World" then He is the Savior of Armenia since Armenia is part of the world. Taking our eyes off Jesus is what will be threatening the existence of our nation (and may I add our souls) Mr. Vasgan the author. Pray that Jesus will anoint your eyes for you to see

 


Edited by man, 22 October 2013 - 02:04 PM.


#10 man

man

    Member

  • Banned
  • PipPipPip
  • 846 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 06 November 2013 - 07:50 AM

Although there are harmony and rapport between the clergy of the Armenian Apostolic Church, there are also much infighting between them and of cursing each others or cursing others who are not clergy; this, despite Jesus saying: Bless and curse not.

 

The negative trends in the church are from their self-righteousness, from their jealousy, from being fleshly (meaning not being sufficiently spiritual), from their stupid pride (knowing full well that God hates it), from their alienation from Jesus whom they claim to worship as their God but in reality are too far from.

 

Jesus told them "to die" to themselves, to their own ID, to their own ego, to their pride, to their self-righteousness --in order to live in Him, by Him and for Him. Naturally this (this dying of their ego-self in order to have life in Christ) proved to be a very hard thing for them to accomplish therefore they have not been established in Christ yet. Add to this the factor of the Holy Spirit (promised by Jesus to give and abides in them to guide, comfort and help them) this factor being missed from their life in favor of being immersed in absurd rituals and formalities (Jesus commanded only one ritual, that of communion of bread&wine) but He gave various commands of loving God and of loving each others.

In this article, written by Vosgan Mekhitarian (who is not from Armenia and hence stranger to Armenia), and it seems to be the part 3 of his series; we see the conflict started between  Archbishop Norvan Zakarian and Catholicos Karekin II over a certain priest, Vatche Hairabedian, whom the writer of the article says is "a known convicted criminal ". And like the Armenian story of "the drop of a honey" it escalated to other matters "of corruption and abuse of power at the Catholicosate level of Etchmiadzin".

In this case, Archbishop Norvan Zakarianis also is a culprit because in his letter he writes that he has been "insulted and his feeling hurt" by Karekin II. May I say how many times Jesus was insulted and His feelings hurt YET HE DID NOT WRITE A LETTER OF PROTEST AND RESIGNATION! Dear Norvam, take your feeling & hurts and put them in a grinder then mortar them to grinder to be no more then you would have what is called "spirituality". After years taking communion did you not realize what it means: to die to yourself by eating and drinking the "blood and body" of Jesus!

 

What would I have done if I were Karekin II? Came to brother-in-Christ Norvan, as a teacher and not as a boss, and explained the Word of Jesus to him. But in the absent of a real Holy Spirit, anything could happen! Are there anyone in the church who wants to be an imitator of Christ? To follow Christ and not their own whims?

 

Part 3

The Armenian Apostolic Church is Held Hostage

By Vosgan Mekhitarian
 05 November 2013

 

The continuing culture of corruption and abuse of power at the Catholicosate level of the Armenian church becomes more than evident when we consider the impact the resignation letter of the Primate of France, His  Eminence Archbishop Norvan Zakarian, has been having on the psyche of the current and future generations of the clergy.

Let us begin our analysis of the present state of affairs of the Armenian Church by introducing Archbishop Norvan Zakarian, in order to provide a context for understanding the unjust victimization and severity of penal threats levied by Catholicos Karekin II against this devoted and humble servant of God.

Archbishop Norvan Zakarian was born in Beirut, Lebanon, in 1940. After graduating from the local parochial elementary school, he attended the seminary of the Armenian Catholicosate of Cilicia. Thereafter, he pursued his higher education at the St. James’ Brotherhood Seminary in Jerusalem. In 1967, he went to France to continue his theological studies. Archbishop Serovpe Manoukian, the former Primate of France, recognized the exceptional character of this young seminarian and ordained him as celibate priest in 1968.

In appreciation of his many years of service in the Church, His Holiness Catholicos Vazken I ordained him a bishop in 1982. Bishop Zakarian has had a long and distinguished track record of selfless and obedient service to his parish and church. Moreover, he played an instrumental role in creating and establishing the Armenian Church Diocese of France. He was the force behind the movement that transformed that dream into reality.

In 2007, by a majority of the votes of the Diocesan Assembly he was elected as the first Primate of the newly-created Diocese of France, followed by his nomination as a member of the Supreme Spiritual Council of the Holy See of Etchmiadzin and appointment as Pontifical Legate to the Armenian communities of Western Europe.

Those who have come to know Archbishop Zakarian have consistently regarded him as a model clergyman, always willing and able to serve the needs of his parishioners, who possesses the intellectual integrity of the highest caliber—predicating any number of important achievements. This is truly a dedicated man of the cloth, who has become the pride of the Church and has won the hearts and minds of the faithful.

Archbishop Norvan Zakarian is currently being targeted for ostracization and vilified by vengeful wrath and subsequent shunning by the Catholicos for not supporting  the priest Vatche Hairabedian, a known convicted criminal. Archbishop Zakarian summarizes his disappointment at Karekin II’s behavior and verbal invectives in his letter, stating, “For a while now, I have come to realize that insulting me and hurting my feelings somehow gives you pleasure. Your accusations addressed to me, indeed, surprise me. You probably do not realize you are squashing the moral integrity of a human being beneath your feet.”

The phrase, “for a while now” leads one to believe that this volley of threats is not singular in nature, but just the latest attempt to humiliate and defrock him by a disgruntled and vindictive head of the church. In fact, the Archbishop iterates in his four-page letter addressed to the members of the Supreme Spiritual Council many other instances of his public chastisement by the Catholicos. We must ask ourselves if this is the just and proper show of appreciation for his 45 years of dutiful service to the Church and nation. Granted, as Christians we can only expect recognition for our good deeds from the Almighty. However, is it not only reasonable to expect not to be persecuted and undermined for such deeds? How can such indefensible behavior by the highest authority of the Church be justified and what message does it send to the new, aspiring generation of seminarians vowed to serve the Church?

A specific incident in a public location, disclosed by Archbishop Norvan Zakarian, attests to the extent of the injury inflicted on him by His Holiness Karekin II, who, upon visiting the Diocese in France, launched into a tirade, declaring, “I will take away your hood…I will take away your cloak…I will make you stand before your parishioners and have them witness your punishment. You will not be able to perform conduct any ceremonies such as baptisms, matrimony or funeral.”

Archbishop Zakarian has expressed his frustrations with the leadership of the Church by reiterating that the Armenian Church has long stood for love, grace, and compassion, whereas the current powers have instilled a culture of fear and intimidation.

Indeed, this is a very sad state of affairs, but these revelations are nothing new. Other high and low ranking priests have been targeted as well, yet the turmoil and abuse of power continues. His Holiness Aram I, of the Catholicosate of Cilicia, suffers from the same megalomaniacal psychopathy, who has declared on several occasions to his young priests, “…anyone who does not listen and obey my orders, I will smash him and cast aside like a dirty rag and will humiliate him, and will make him suffer”. Young priests, the world over, are attesting to this kind of humiliation today. How is it feasible to attract young people to come and serve the Church under such dreadful conditions? Indeed, it is not!

Let us make it clear: our concerns are not so much with particular individuals, --although the actions of the current leadership is at best deplorable,-- but with the lack of brotherly love among all priests and absence of the manifestations of love that was taught to us by Jesus Christ. Concomitantly, we should be distressed by the lawlessness within the hierarchy of Church because at the heart of the matter is a representative institution, for, of, and by the people. Where there is no law, there is infamy and the law of jungle, and hence one loses the ability to listen to public opinion and the ability to conquer conflict or bridge differences, especially among ensuing generations, who are now privy to the turmoil in and moral turpitude of the Church.

The Church can once again become a beacon of moral and constructive behavior, but only when the ranks of the concerned faithful servants of God abide by His Word and begin acting accordingly. Alas, I am not referring the cowards or those who have sold their souls to please the authorities and gain temporal, worldly awards and decorations.

Adding insult to injury, non-elected members of the Supreme Spiritual Council of Etchmiadzin have rendered decisions which exemplify their obsequious nature and servile obedience to the morally bankrupt authority of the Church.

His Holiness Karekin II, in his letter to Archbishop Zakarian, states,  “ We were surprised to read your letter and the accusations that you make. It is your duty to prove to the Supreme Spiritual Council in session that your accusations are founded and that you have evidence to prove your allegations”. At prima facie, it seems utterly ridiculous to demand substantiation for something that occurred at a public location and was witnessed by dozens of officials, but there we are at an absurd point of having to prove that the rant of Catholicos Karekin II at the Orly airport of Paris, France, actually took place. Isn’t this latest demand a clear case of the abuse of power and rule with impunity by the head of the Church?

Who among us is going to have the courage to stand up and declare the truth? For, as the Bible says, “there is nothing hidden that shall not be revealed” (Matt. 10:26). -

 http://www.lragir.am...h.nS9pHzFt.dpuf

 

 


Edited by man, 06 November 2013 - 07:55 AM.


#11 man

man

    Member

  • Banned
  • PipPipPip
  • 846 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 15 November 2013 - 11:46 AM

"young people fighting sects are attacking the [Armenian Apostolic] church today [in Armenia]. I wonder to what extent they are committed to protecting the church.." first the article from where this quote was taken, and then an important very recent MESSAGE from JESUS on the topic of judging another person

 

They Think A Celibate Priest Must Have Lovers

Interview - by Siranuysh Papyan
Thursday, 14 November 2013

http://www.lragir.am...h.qn9lTpap.dpuf

 

Yesterday the chair of the United Youth League Sevan Hovhannisyan stated in an interview that Abba Hakob Grigoryan working at the Mother See is a homosexual and displayed photos in which Abba Hakob is feeding a boy and is hugging him. Later Abba Hakob Grigoryan said it is complete slander and the boy in the photo is his brother, his aunt’s son. He noted that he has requested the catholicos to suspend his clerical activities for a while. We interviewed Abba Hakob Grigoryan (his secular name is Arman).

You insist that the boy you are hugging and feeding is your cousin. Many people say one would not hug and feed one’s cousin that fondly.

If one’s cousin is ten years older than one and one treats him like one’s younger brother, being caring has nothing to do with being in love. Anything can be interpreted in any way. Our society is such. If you post a personal photo on the web, there will be any comment because today it is not important what the reality is, what matters is scandals and likes and clicks.

Does this scandal involve the church or your personality?

This scandal involved both me and the church. I don’t think that I have hurt anyone but I am amazed that young people fighting sects are attacking the church today. I wonder to what extent they are committed to protecting the church, supporting the church because as long as one supports the church, clergymen are part of the church. This is a matter of hatred, meanness, antipathy, something that surprises me, they used to be my close friends.

Do you think a person should not be free in their sex life? If I am not mistaken, you are celibate.

As a priest I share the official opinion of the church. I am sorry that a person may get some photos in a way and manipulate them and disturb my family and my friends. I have taken action against that, I contacted a lawyer, we will go to court and the issue will be settled. Those guilty will be held responsible. As to the fact of being celibate, I am sorry that people perceive clergymen as oligarchs, they think that celibate priests must have lovers or be homosexuals. This is not the problem of the church but the public perception that no moral values and standards exist.

Is celibacy wrong?

I cannot tell what is right and what is wrong. For me what the church says is right.

And what do you think, is it possible that we are seeing more intimate photos of you?

If my personal and family photos were stolen, they may use Photoshop. I will sue them. I will get everything clarified. It is slander and it is a lie.

Do you like women?

Why wouldn’t I like them? What is unusual about it? Liking someone, getting in touch with someone does not make a church crime.

There is a lot of criticism against clergymen, does every clergyman share responsibility for strengthening the church today?

Everyone, clergymen and laymen, must strengthen, empower, support and assist the church. However, one also needs to understand that no matter how hard a clergyman and a decent believer try, the church may also undergo attacks because the church has both friends and enemies.

How did you meet UYL? What caused the lack of understanding between you?

I learned about the United Youth League through Sevan Aghajanyan. Frankly speaking I haven’t understood the reason, we were so close and whenever I needed help, I got that help from them and I am grateful and I always returned their help but I would never think that they would be so mad with me, I tried to help them with advice. Simply they are now focused on their PR, they want to feature on the web, they want people to talk, and God knows who their victims will be.

Do you wish to return to service?

I certainly do.

Recently the gender law has been circulated, and the church expressed concerns over it. Who would expect that any issue would stir up the clergymen that much?

In the 5th century or during the war in Karabakh, a clergyman would pick up arms and fight if there was a need for that. Otherwise, I wouldn’t have talked to Sevak and Sevan about sects. I saw the need and I talked to them.

I believe that it is easy for the church to be beside every family, every individual because of the shortage of priests. 

==========================

MAN commenting:

In Matthew 7:1,2 Jesus is saying: Do not judge so that you will not be judged. For in the way you judge you will be judged; and by your standard of measure [of how you measure someone else], it will be measured to you".

In a recent message, Jesus said that: When someone judges another person WITH HATE & MALICE and with intention to inflict damage on another, IT IS THEN THAT HIS COMMANDMENT OF "DO NOT JUDGE" APPLIES. In the above case, the priest mentioned in the above article was judged by certain Armenian youth organization in order to destroy him, AND THAT WAS WRONG, no human is allowed to judge and bring such charges against another Christian UNLESS FIRST THEY LOVE HIM, THEY LOVE HIS SOUL and any criticism or judgment they bring against him is for the benefit of his soul. In this case the accusations against that priest are false and baseless..only a photo of him hugging his ten year old cousin with affection. HERE IS THE RECENT MESSAGE OF JESUS relation to the topic of judging others:

 

I give no man the authority to judge another, to speak evil of another or to cast aspersions on the spirituality of another soul

Sunday, November 3rd, 2013 @ 19:07

 

My dearly beloved daughter, the way to identify a satanic attack is to look at the way in which souls, who are infested by the evil one, behave. They will never be calm. Instead, with a fierce restlessness, they will scream obscenities, lie and roar with anger at their targets. Satan and his demons are in a terrible rage right now and they will attack everyone and anyone in their path, who proclaims the Word of God, during these times.

 

Souls who are full of the traits, associated with the devil, such as pride, arrogance and an exaggerated respect for their own flawed human intelligence, will be the first in line to attack those who lead My Remnant Army. Every tactic, every deed, and every verbal onslaught will be laced with a deep and abiding hatred for the souls they will attack. Their attacks will always result as if you, the victims, have been kicked in the stomach – a classic satanic attack.

 

When you witness calumny, false accusations and slander against you, My beloved followers, you will know then that this could never come from Me, your Jesus. I give no man the authority to judge another, to speak evil of another or to cast aspersions on the spirituality of another soul, in the Eyes of God. Only I, Jesus Christ, can Judge man for his sins. No one else has been given this right, for this belongs only to Me.

 

When you judge another in My Holy Name, with hatred in your heart, you too will be judged by Me according to your works. When you hurt another child of God and declare them to be evil, then you too will be judged to be evil in My Eyes. An eye for an eye – this will be your punishment. You may think you are justified, when you defame another soul in My Name, but instead you are an enemy in My Eyes. Those who exalt themselves before Me, by claiming that their human knowledge of spiritual matters makes them superior, then they must know that they will become nothing. When you deny Me and declare that My Holy Word comes from the mouth of the evil one, then you have signed your destiny and you will never see My Face. No Mercy can be yours, for you have blasphemed against Me.

 

My warning, to those who betray Me, is this. Fight Me and you will never win. My Power is Almighty. No man will ever defeat Me. Yet many will break My Heart as they try to compete with Me, declare themselves to be greater than Me and say that their knowledge is superior to Mine. Away from Me, you ungrateful men and women – your sins of blasphemy will never be forgotten.

Jesus Christ

Saviour of Humanity


Edited by man, 15 November 2013 - 11:47 AM.


#12 onjig

onjig

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 948 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ranch in Sierra Nevada Mountains, California, Ranch in Nevada
  • Interests:Family, Armenia, Armenians,skiing, crop, too much to list.

Posted 14 December 2013 - 04:42 PM

The Attacks on the Armenian Church and the Armenian people are no different than the attacks on the Polish People, their Church and Solidarity. Just as those attacks were not from supporters of the Polish freedom movement or their fellow religious, the attacks on the Armenian Church or the core of the Armenian people are from suspect area. 

In both the above cases the nashing is done by atheists, sour grapes.

 

Long live the Armenian people, long live the our Holy Church, long live Armenia. 

 

 

Is there such a thing as an odartheist: 






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users