Death Penalty And Christianity

Thoth, be honest and cite your sources
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Devil's Advocate
Directed by: Taylor Hackford
1997

JOHN MILTON (Al Pacino) : "Let me give you a little inside information about God. God likes to watch. He's a prankster. Think about it. He gives man INSTINCTS! He gives you this extraordinary gift, and then what does He do, I swear for His own amusment, his own private, cosmic gag reel, He sets the rules in opposition. It's the goof of all time. Look but don't touch. Touch, but don't taste! Taste, don't swallow. Ahaha! And when you're jumpin' from one foot to the next, what is he doing? He's laughin' His sick, ***in' ass off. He's a tight-ass! He's a sadist! He's an absentee landlord. Worship THAT? NEVER!"

Edited by ArmenSarg, 24 August 2004 - 01:53 PM.

Sasun,

You have no idea what you're talking about. Here's a passage for you:

Rom 12:2:

"And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. "

Your mind is mush, like mine used to be, from all this false religion that you have embraced. But God's Word can renew your mind, the truth can renew your mind.

lol - yes I do recall this now...I hate to say it - but it seems more likely then what is commonly portrayed (by the do-good Christian types) - at least form empiricle evidence...and by onnigs admissions....I'm not really so worried though - at least not abotu divine punishment of any sort...I'm more worried about the kooks and religious nuts who are running around everywhere....they are downright dangerous (and possesing of no real [earthbound] morality...)....onward Christian soldiers...as it were...

Onnig, don't try to avoid the qustion with an irrelevan quote. I remind you, you are claiming that hell is eternal, and I challenge you to prove that Jesus said so.

Hmm.........( while eating a cheese sandwich)



(thinking out loud) didn't I read this in a comic book? Or, maybe its from a video game I played? Ok I give up ! THOTH you get this from a comic book or a video game you played?

I am dying to find out!

I've given you more than adequate evidence, but if you want more, here it goes...

Matt 18:8: (Jesus speaking)

"If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.

and,

Matt 25:41: (Jesus speaking)

"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;"

and,

Matt 25:46: (Jesus speaking)

"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

and,

2 Thess 1:9: (Paul writes)

"These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,"

and,

Rev 14:11: (John writes)

"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

and,

Rev 20:10: (John writes)

"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Edited by onnig, 24 August 2004 - 03:17 PM.

Death penalty is a somewhat strange concept ... suppose the person you sentence to death was actually innocent. But suppose this person was going to commit some sins (as most do) before his actual death. Isn't it ironic that this person will end up in heaven in this case due to this "punishment" while he would have ended up in hell if he were to lead his normal life till it's natural end?

Makes you think doesn't it

I would suggest first starting by reading Joseph Campbell - "hero with a thousand faces" and his "The masks of God" series...as well as just educating yourself a bit in comparative religion. I woudl also suggest reading the Sumerian/Akadian/Babylonian "Epic of Gilgamesh" and the Egyptian "Book of the Dead" (Budgie). I find it amusing how so sure of yourself but how equally ignorant you and other bible thuumpers like you are...about nearly everything seemingly - but mostly concerning religion...


Let's not get too personal - nairi

Edited by nairi, 24 August 2004 - 03:59 PM.

BTW thanks Nairi !!

Hmm.......considering I have studied comparitive religions for about 14 years (give or take a year) maybe just maybe, I have read these stories too and have grown pass that stage (takes another bite from his cheese sandwich). If you promise to be nice I will share my sandwich with you.


Edited quote according to Thoth's post - nairi

Edited by nairi, 24 August 2004 - 04:20 PM.

THOTH,

Again, and of course getting off the topic, those mythical stories you mentioned can easily be explained. The historical facts of Adam and Eve, the great Flood, etc, etc were passed down from generations into other cultures, peoples, kindreds, and tribes.

Which came first, the Bible or these very similar mythical fictitious stories? Do we carbon date the original manuscripts and go by that? Does the date matter because some stories could have been carried on for centuries before actually writing them down?

So what is to be done here. Well, the biblical account I believe preceeds the mythical ones because of the continual storyline it represents, which is the account of creation, to the fall of man, to God's dealing with man, appointing a Savior, prophesy that has historically come to pass, and Messianic fullfillment of prophesy in Christ Jesus, and also an account for the end of the world.

Other stories and timelines from other cultures mimics the whole account.

That's my take on it.

Well onnig - you believe wrong (and Ludwig - I just don't believe you - sorry - and I'll pass on that sandwhich).

Onnig - ever hear of the babylonian exile? And you question whose stories came first...lol. If you were at all familiar with the epic of Gilgamesh - of which the book of genesis is only a pale twisted shadow - you would not claim what you do...and I suspect eve biblical scholars would agree with me here - since there is clear evidence of the Summerian myths far proceeding those of the bible - and if you are familiar with each it is also quite clear who plagerized from who....

and so very convinient how your bible just brings everything together so perfectly (not really) - but for arguments sake...I mean wouldnt it - cosidering how crafted it has been over the centuries (to enslave you...)

THOTH,

Would you just speak plainly instead of shooting off your condescending tone. I answered your question politely, do the same.

Let's start a new thread on this, not here. Yes or No?

Hah - you accuse me of being condescending - and what have you been here? ANd why shouldn't I be such considering how you have blazed into our forum condemning everyone to hell (if they don't accept your answers...) etc

And this seems as good a place as any for this sort of discussion..

Now here is a god worthy of praise - eh?

http://www.crystalinks.com/thoth.html

Edited by THOTH, 24 August 2004 - 04:54 PM.

so I guess the answer is no, ok

Another god that I quite like...note here it claims that THOTH was his son... (bold added by me)..oh I voted i don't care in the death penalty poll BTW...

ENKI OR EA

Ea stands in his watery home the Apsu.



Enki walks out of the water to the land.
Enki is attended by a god with two faces called Usmu (Isimud).



Enki with the Gods and the Initiate.
The Water of Life flowing into the aboratory glassware
indicates alchemical circulations.

Within his sacred precinct 'Mound of Creation' in Eridu, Enki unraveled the secrets of life and death.

His emblem was two serpents entwined on a staff - the basis for the winged caduceus symbol used by modern Western medicine.

Enki was the god who created the first humans: In those days, in those years, The Wise One of Eridu, Ea, created him as a model of men. His name was Adapa, Adam in the Old Testament: Elohim created the Adam in His image - in the image of Elohim created He him.

Enki is a god of water, creation, and fertility (semem). He was once known as En-kur, lord of the underworld, which either contained or was contained in the Abzu. He struggled with Kur as mentioned in the prelude to "Gilgamesh, Enkidu, and the Underworld", and presumably was victorious and thereby able to claim the title "Lord of Kur" The Realm.

Enki had a fun loving and mischievous nature. His sacred number is 40.

He also holds dominion over the land. He is the keeper of the 'me' - the Divine Laws - the Rules of the Universe. The 'me' were assembled by Enlil in Ekur and given to Enki to guard and impart to the world, beginning with Eridu, his center of worship. From there, he guards the me and imparts them on the people. He directs the 'me' towards Ur and Meluhha and Dilmun, organizing the world with his decrees.

Later, Inanna comes to Enki and complains at having been given too little power from his decrees. In a different text, she gets Enki drunk and he grants her more powers, arts, crafts, and attributes - a total of ninety-four 'me'. Inanna parts company with Enki to deliver the 'me' to her cult center at Erech. Enki recovers his wits and tries to recover the 'me' from her, but she arrives safely in Erech with them.

Enki was the leader of the first sons of Anu that came down to Earth. He played the pivotal role in saving humanity from the global Deluge. He defied the Anunnaki ruling council and told Ziusudra (the Sumerian Noah) how to build a ship on which to save humanity from the killing flood. Ea would have been over 120 sars old at that time, yet his activity with humanity continued to be actively reported for thousands of years thereafter.



Creation of first man by Anunnaki.
Laboratory vessels and Tree of Life.

Anu sent Enki and his followers to Earth to live.

The sons of the gods fell in love with the daughters of men married them and had children by them. Then not wanting their lovers to die they taught them the secrets of immortality that Ea had discovered. Those secrets were the secrets of alchemy.

Enki' youngest son was Ningizzida, Lord of the Tree of Truth, in Mesopotamia. He was revered as Thoth in Egypt and Hermes in the West. Thoth is the ancient Egyptian Scribe. As Hermes who is the Magician - the Alchemist. The ancient Mystery School Teachings of Thoth were past down to his Initiates who became the priests. They hid the secret knowledge of creation - and passed it down through the ages. This knowledge of creation is now called Sacred Geometry. It shows reality as a grid program - not unlike the movie matrix - in which we project our consciousness in rder to experperience 2 things - emotions and linear time- for in truth there is no time.

There is no clear and uncontradictory indication that some of us will go to hell and stay there eternally.

Now regarding the quotes you brougth.



This quote comes from a passage where Jesus speaks against temptations, particularly people who will tempt innocent children, etc. The fire is eternal, yes, but will a human soul stay in the fire eternally? This quote does not answer that question.




These quotes come from Mathew's "Final Judgement" passage. First of all, out of 4 gospels only Matthew has this passage, this makes one wonder if the final judgement is such an important concept that Jesus has taught then why it is not found in the other Gospels. There are also other gloomy, contradictory passages in Mathew that are not found in the other Gospels.
Secondly, if you read the whole passage, something is not clear. It is said that the fire is prepared for the devil and angels, not human souls. Then it may follow that whoever is sent there is either the devil or the angels. The final judgement may be very well for the evils spirits, not human souls. The reference to sheep and goats maybe a reference to good and evil, not human souls. It is not clear.

In general, there are many minor and not so minor contradictions in the Bible, including the Gospels. Therefore, one concludes that if there are 2 conflicting accounts one of them must be wrong, it is not possible that something is both white and black.
The overwhelming message of Jesus is that we shall be forgiven, that if we ask something from our Heavenly Father He will give. If one believes in eternal punishment that means that a human soul which is nothing else than God's child will ask for salvation from eternal hell but God will not give. This is clearly a contradiction.

Therefore, I personally do not accept the concept of final judgement where some souls will go to eternal punishment, and some souls will go to eternal life. I do not force my view upon anyone, but I will point out the contradiction.
To believe in a cruel God one must reject some of the fundamental messages of Christ that show the inherent holiness of human souls. (e.g. Jesus says that Kingdom of Heaven is inside ourselves. This seems like a contradiction if we consider that the Kingdom of Heaven will spend eternity in hell. Even a limited time in hell seems like a contradiction, which makes one wonder what hell is. Another example would be Jesus addressing the crowd and calling them the "light of the world". Obviously, to send the light of the world to eternal hell is a contradiction)
I believe all souls will in time go to eternal life. In the meantime, there will be many lives for each soul, and many times the soul will spend limited times in heaven and hell, depending on how one lives the preceding life. This is the case of soul reincarnation. Jesus has hinted of reincarnation. He may have said more about reincarnation that has not been recorded. If necessary I will post the appropriate quote.

Onnig, I understand your stance, you are quoting some gloomy passages. You are right, those passages do exist. In questioning you I had neglected the Mathew contradictions that often Old Testament believers like to quote. However, the gloomy passages contradict to the majority of passages in the Gospels. When the minority of accounts contradict to the majority it is safer to follow the majority.

As to John's Revelation, it is better not to even discuss, as it is not an account of what Jesus has said per se, it is a vision that is not so easy to interpret. My questions are concernting the Gospels anyway.

And finally, there maybe many ways to understand and interpret Jesus. However, they should not be taken with hostility, which was the mistake the apostles did before Jesus taught them the right thing, which is "whoever is not against us is for us" Mark 9:41. This statement alone should eliminate all sectarian fights between various Christian paths and churches. Unfortunately that is not the case. If one believes in Jesus s/he cannot be considered wrong or somehow un-Christian. That's how I understand, and I strongly object anyone who will call me un-Christian or God-hater ...

If you want I can bring all the necessary quotes to support my position, but I believe you should be familiar already.

If you take temporary heaven and hell inbetween lives, as well as punishment and rewards in lifetimes too then there is no contradiction. But what are the chances that a person has not committed any sins in his life (in other words he was perfect) and would at some point commit a sin. Usually it is the opposite, going from less perfect to more perfect.

Sasun,



James 2:19

"You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. "

This passage does not require further explanation. Believing on Jesus means to accept Him as your only Lord and Savior, which you do not, therefore you do not 'believe' on Jesus.

Onnig, same old same old, you just contradicted Jesus quoting from someone else. Again, Jesus said "whoever is not against us is for us". I am not only not against Jesus, but also a believer in Jesus. Now who are you to tell me the I don't believe in Jesus...
you will never learn, I give up on you...

Actually, I take it back. That quote has nothing to do with what I am saying, but you nevertheless would like to contradict Jesus.

Edited by Sasun, 24 August 2004 - 05:44 PM.

I think we can all agree that there was a flood. Other cultures have a similar stories about the flood.