56 replies to this topic

[Z'areh]

I was reading these "back and forth" posts in "Diapora" segment of Hyeforum, I found them quite amusing to read. Many different forms of thoughts seem to exist among us when it comes to Turks and Turkey. A question popped up in my mind and I was wondering what the answer would be.

How long should a territory or a land be settled, occupied, inhabitted, ruled, owned by force or otherwise...[and whtever other words one can find to describe an existing country], by a people so that legitimacy in that land would be established or legitimately would be concidered to be theirs?

Armenians ruled Cilicia officially from 1080 to 1375, late in the 10th century Armenians moved towards Cilicia to scape Seljuk attacks and in 1080 the Armenian kingdom of Cilicia was founded. Now I wonder if there is a single Armenian that would even contemplate Cilicia as being anything BUT Armenian.

So any answers to my question?

[Zartonk]

I honestly think it is not chronological thing, but a matter of overall contributions and advancement to the region as a civilization and a grouping of people, applying ONLY what is of the distinct originality and character of your people as a whole. If you as a nation give rise to prosperity in whatever realm , be it culture or be it wealth, in relation with the mobile standard of the time and therfore end up with any form of a Zenith, I think it's only than that you're justified to claim anyplace as being anyones.

Edited by Zartonk, 26 July 2005 - 02:10 PM.

[gamavor]

Well said!

[phantom22]

Giligia was ruled by a bunch of Armenian "muts" like my father's family. They were part French and German and predominantly Catholic. This kingdom was as much European as Armenian. The last king, Levon, is buried in St. Denis in Paris, the land of part of his heritage.

[Zartonk]

a bunch of Armenian "muts"

lavn er..

Just for curiousity's sake, the population and peasenthood also become that Europeanized, when compared to the Armenians that didnt immigrate from Greeat Armenia? I mean not concidering royalty and all.

[Z'areh]

If you as a nation give rise to prosperity in whatever realm , be it culture or be it wealth, in relation with the mobile standard of the time and therfore end up with any form of a Zenith, I think it's only than that you're  justified to claim anyplace as being anyones.

Does that mean that the Arabs have legitimate aspirations towards reconquering or claiming their Andalousian cililization and territory back from modern Spain?

[Zartonk]

Good question. The Arab control over the majority of the peninsula was indeed long and remarkable, but, was it not in a later, independent era free of Arab/Moorish yoke where Spain became truly what one can consider as the world first colonial super power?

As influencial (culturaly and ethnically) as the Arabic rule was in Spain, it looks as if they fared much better as their own, therfore no.

[gamavor]

Giligia was ruled by a bunch of Armenian "muts" like my father's family. They were part French and German and predominantly Catholic. This kingdom was as much European as Armenian. The last king, Levon, is buried in St. Denis in Paris, the land of part of his heritage.

And what is your BIG point here Mr. Phantom?

[gamavor]

Does that mean that the Arabs have legitimate aspirations towards  reconquering  or claiming their Andalousian cililization and territory back from modern Spain?

Of course NOT! Neither Arab Chalifs nor Ottoman Sultans or their stock have built anything memorable. Those were the Empires of expansion rather than building a viable and sustainable societies.

Acctually the greatness of Arab culture dates few centuries back before the conquest of Mediteranean.

[Zartonk]

Of course NOT! Neither Arab Chalifs nor Ottoman Sultans or their stock have built anything memorable. Those were the Empires of expansion rather than building a viable and sustainable societies.

Acctually the greatness of Arab culture dates few centuries back before the conquest of Mediteranean.

Some might argue to point at certain aristic and architectural instances, especially on the European portion, of the Arab empire, but just as you mentioned, the majority of it comes to light only after the fatefull conquest of Iran in 642.
Most of the cultural highpoints of the "Arabic" civilization (as western historians tend to call it) are acquiered from Persia and beyond.

Edited by Zartonk, 26 July 2005 - 04:29 PM.

[gamavor]

Nonetheless those were Empires "on the move". For them expansion defined existence. Some may draw accidental parallels with contemporary instances of expansion.

[Z'areh]

Of course NOT! Neither Arab Chalifs nor Ottoman Sultans or their stock have built anything memorable. Those were the Empires of expansion rather than building a viable and sustainable societies.

Acctually the greatness of Arab culture dates few centuries back before the conquest of Mediteranean.

Ooooo, Gamavor, be careful, history would suggest otherwise. The Arabic dominion over that territory, and the entire territory they reigned upon was brought to the height of scientific, cultural, architectural and educational zenith. When Andalusia was flourishing the rest of Europe was in the depths of dark ages, the European nobility would send their sons and daughters to the "land of light" which was Andalusia.

In fact, it is argued that it is due to the knowledge acquired by the Crusaders through their invasions of Arab territories that European renaissance took hold and flourished to what Europe is now.

And Turks (including the constituent ethnic minorities) themselves contributed to many crossroads information exchanges with Europe which again helped Europe to become what it is today. The contributions of Suleiman the Magnificent should not be overlooked. What you say about the Turkish Sultans' destructive attitudes is true, let's just say the Ottomans were not that interested in spreading scientific and architectural legacy in the conquered territories.

<<<Nonetheless those were Empires "on the move". For them expansion defined existence. Some may draw accidental parallels with contemporary instances of expansion>>>.

Are there Empires that are not on the move, voluntarily ? The limitations of movement is only hampered by their inability to effectively counter opposing forces. Had the Arabs been successful in keeping Andalusia, today the European map would have been quite different, and no one would have questioned their legitimacy, as no one (except us) questions Turkey's legitimacy.

Edited by Z'areh, 26 July 2005 - 05:11 PM.

[shaunt]

Giligia was ruled by a bunch of Armenian "muts" like my father's family. They were part French and German and predominantly Catholic. This kingdom was as much European as Armenian. The last king, Levon, is buried in St. Denis in Paris, the land of part of his heritage.

Don't remind us. The one respectable and Western orientated political unit we had had to be destroyed, .

[gamavor]

Ooooo, Gamavor, be careful, history would suggest otherwise. The Arabic dominion over that territory, and the entire territory they reigned upon was brought to the height of scientific, cultural, architectural and educational zenith. When Andalusia was flourishing the rest of Europe was in the depths of dark ages, the European nobility would send their sons and daughters to the "land of light" which was Andalusia.

The zenith of Arab culture were the miracle buildings in the Middle East, Avitsena, the translation from Greek into Arabic of the works of Greek philosophers, the modernization of silk production, development of trade and crafts and servicing the trade roads in the East.

All of these occurred much earlier.

Edited by gamavor, 26 July 2005 - 06:10 PM.

[Zartonk]

The zenith of Arab culture were the miracle buildings in the Middle East, Avitsena, the translation from Greek into Arabic of the works of Greek philosophers, the modernization of silk production, development of trade and crafts and servicing the trade roads in the East.

All of these occurred much earlier.

I, for a fact do know that Avitsena (Ibn-Sinna) was an ethnic Samaghandian Pars, much like many of his countrymen whom Europe labels as Arabs because of the state's enforcement of Arabic on all intellectual activities. The next though, I must say, is truley a great gift to the modern world on their part.

as no one (except us) questions Turkey's legitimacy.

I wont consider us ALL alone.

[Z'areh]

I, for a fact do know that Avitsena (Ibn-Sinna) was an ethnic Samaghandian Pars, much like many of his countrymen whom Europe labels as Arabs because of the state's enforcement of Arabic on all intellectual activities. The next  though, I must say, is truley a great gift to the modern world on their part.
I wont consider us ALL alone.

True, Ibn Sinna was a Persian from Bukhara, but he along with many other Arabs such as Al Jaaber Bn' Hayyan (from whom Algebra comes to us) "religiously" devoted themselves to the studies of sciences/medicine/arts and as Gamavor mentions correctly, translated many Greek manuscripts, because there was a thirst for knowledge and devotion to the teachings of those subjects. The society, for that time, was in many ways more open to the "earthly" subjects than contemporary Europe was. And now look at them. What a loss!!

It is a shame that the Islamic Arabic/Persian culture went from the heights of civilization to modern-day backwater, if not altogether backward societies.

Their downfall pretty much starts with the Kaliph Omar's burning and destruction of the huge Alexandria Library, a true depository of world sciences. some say that single act in 640 AD might have thrown our civilization back a thousand years .

....But apparently there is a controversy about how that Library was destroyed. For an interesting article please read:

http://www.ehistory....eView.cfm?AID=9

[phantom22]

Gamavor,

I was responding to Z'areh's comment that no Armenian would consider Giligia anything but an Armenian Kingdom. So my BIG point is that we don't have to be hung up on ethnic purity or "cultural purity" for a nation to be considered Armenian.

[Artaxias]

So my BIG point is that we don't have to be hung up on ethnic purity or "cultural purity" for a nation to be considered Armenian.

Only when it is applied to Cilicia.

[phantom22]

Artaxias,

Do you claim that there is not other ethnic strains among the Armenians? Historical veracity will prove you wrong.

[Zartonk]

True, Ibn Sinna was a Persian from Bukhara, but he along with many other Arabs such as Al Jaaber Bn' Hayyan (from whom Algebra comes to us) "religiously" devoted themselves to the studies of sciences/medicine/arts and as Gamavor mentions correctly, translated many Greek manuscripts, because there was a thirst for knowledge and devotion to the teachings of those subjects. The society, for that time, was in many ways more open to the "earthly" subjects than contemporary Europe was. And now look at them. What a loss!!

It is a shame that the Islamic Arabic/Persian culture went from the heights of civilization to modern-day backwater, if not altogether backward societies.

Their downfall pretty much starts with the Kaliph Omar's burning and destruction of the huge Alexandria Library, a true depository of world sciences. some say that single act in 640 AD might have thrown our civilization back a thousand years .

All of what you said, I can't disagree much with.The Arab empire, as a whole, made a priceless contribution to civilization and today's world. As you said, Europe was not even comparable with the culture that the East possessed, a large portion of which owed thanks to the Arabs. BUT, as mention by yourself, the era of advancement and the highlight spurred only when the direct rule of Islamic ideology was loosened. In a sense, it was only after the first decending caliphs and their favor to the world in Alexandria (...it has to be the saddest day of the life of human intellect...) that the all-conquered Eastern world realized they have some repairng to do.

The disintegration of the once proud Islamic culture (and especially the Persian) backwardness of it's subjects today is ironically nothing but the consequence of applying Islam itself as the social philosophy for the collective mentality. Truley, what a loss.


FMI, was Al-Jaaber a predecessor to Khwarazmi (Al-Khwarazmi)?

ethnic purity

This concept to me does not exist anyway.

Edited by Zartonk, 27 July 2005 - 12:06 PM.