92 replies to this topic

[DeLaLa]

Brussels, 2 August 2007 , source: Radio Public of Armenia ,

http://www.eafjd.org...reve761&lang=en

Serge Sargsyan: Armenia open for talks with Turkey

Armenia’s Prime Minister Serge Sargsyan said in an interview with Al Jazeera that he is ready to negotiate with Turkey’s new Government after more then 90 years of severed ties.

"We can’t stay in a situation without having communication and talks with our neighbor because the easiest way of resolving this issue is dialogue and negotiations."

“A row over the mass killings of Armenians by Ottoman Turks during the First World War is at the heart of the issue. Turkey says they were casualties of war, but the people of Armenia want what happened to be recognized as genocide.The continuing closure of the border has isolated Armenia, which is a landlocked country, hitting the economy hard,” Al Jazeera reported.

Armenia has only two out of four borders open. It has stopped the economy from moving forward hundreds of millions of dollars of trade are lost every year. That is why PM Serge Sargsyan said he wants change.

He had this message for Turkey’s newly elected government: "We didn’t choose the location of where we live and whatever happens we will have to be neighbors for a very long time. I think it would be better if Armenians and Turks come to an understanding."

Radiolur

Edited by DeLaLa, 02 August 2007 - 04:14 AM.

[Anush7]

IS THE TURKISH NATION ABLE TO HAVE ANY DISCUSSION WITHOUT FIGHTS?don't think so

[DeLaLa]

IS THE TURKISH NATION ABLE TO HAVE ANY DISCUSSION WITHOUT FIGHTS?don't think so

Is Armenia able to have any discussion without fights too ? Not until Turkey admits having closed the border because of Azerbayjan i think .

here another article from RIA Novosti :

source : RIA Novosti

01/08/2007

Armenia ready for dialogue with new Turkish government

JEREWAN, 01 August (RIA Novosti). The Armenian Prime Minister Sersch Sarkissjan is ready according to own data for negotiations with the new Turkish government.

“We cannot bear the situation any longer, since there is, said no relations and no dialogue with our neighbour” Sarkissjan on Wednesday in an interview for the Arab television station aluminium Jazeera, how the press agency Nowosti Armenija announced. The relations between both countries had been broken off before 90 years after a genocide at the Armenians in the Osmani realm at that time.

“We cannot change our residence. In each case we will remain still long time neighbour. I think that an agreement would lie both in the interest of the Armenians and the Turks”, said the Armenian head of the government. Armenia and Turkey do not maintain diplomatic relations, the Turkish-Armenian border are closed since 1993 on suggestion of Ankara.

Turkey places some preconditions for the preparation of bilateral relations. Armenia is to give its politics up, which pursue the goal of letting the genocide at the Armenians recognize internationally. Besides Jerewan of concessions is to make Ankara with the settlement of the Karabach conflict, so.

By the Turkish blockade the Armenian economy must accept each year on average 500 million dollar of losses, maintains international experts.

realistically : armenia needs an open border to turkey / turkey doesnt care or doesnt have a loss/profit by opening the border for armenia .

Edited by DeLaLa, 02 August 2007 - 02:59 PM.

[kakachik77]

Is Armenia able to have any discussion without fights too ? Not until Turkey admits having closed the border because of Azerbayjan i think .

here another article from RIA Novosti :
realistically : armenia needs an open border to turkey / turkey doesnt care or doesnt have a loss/profit by opening the border for armenia .

DeLaLa,

that's a typical turkish argument, the issue here not whether that claim is right or wrong but just the mentality that you use to approach this problem.
What is 'YOUR IDEAL' policy solution for Armenia to pursue, I am really curious to know, particularly relating to the genocide and Karabagh settlement?

[DeLaLa]

hello kakachik ,

it is maybe an argument that turkey states , but isnt that also the reality ? in what way should turkey profit from opening the border to armenia ? the only reason which comes in my mind is to enter the EU (turkey has to open the border to enter the EU) . armenian economy would only profit .

i think sarkissyan said a very realistic sentence here : “We cannot change our residence. In each case we will remain still long time neighbour. I think that an agreement would lie both in the interest of the Armenians and the Turks”

about my ideal policy solution ... thats another topic than in this thread . i am talking about the article i posted . opening /not opening the border , economical profit/gain . genocide and arsax we can discuss in other threads .

[ED]

hello kakachik ,

it is maybe an argument that turkey states , but isnt that also the reality ? in what way should turkey profit from opening the border to armenia ? the only reason which comes in my mind is to enter the EU (turkey has to open the border to enter the EU) . armenian economy would only profit .

i think sarkissyan said a very realistic sentence here : “We cannot change our residence. In each case we will remain still long time neighbour. I think that an agreement would lie both in the interest of the Armenians and the Turks”

about my ideal policy solution ... thats another topic than in this thread . i am talking about the article i posted . opening /not opening the border , economical profit/gain . genocide and arsax we can discuss in other threads .

tell me what is reality!
wile at it, tell me if not now, perhaps maybe in few years Armenia might become?! Major regional power and dictate her terms (like turkey is doing now) to the region?

if you fallow financial progression of ROA, it has grown more then anybodies among the former soviet states.

by the way, have you ever been in Armenia?
or you're just another "so-called Armenian from Istanbul" Kostantinapol.

[DeLaLa]

hello edward ,

perhaps maybe in few years Armenia might become?! Major regional power and dictate her terms (like turkey is doing now) to the region?

do you really believe that armenia is going to become the major regional power and dictate her terms ? i think you are dreaming a nationalist dream . it sounds to me that you dont like arguments and prefer to stick to your idealistic dream . what makes you believe that when so many armenians have left their country for mostly economical reasons ?

if you fallow financial progression of ROA, it has grown more then anybodies among the former soviet states.

growing yes Edward , but growing from what point of beginning situation ? i would say armenia is growing from the point of being the poorhouse of the kaukasus in the past , but armenia is still far from an economical stable country . i will quote you from the first article i posted : "By the Turkish blockade the Armenian economy must accept each year on average 500 million dollar of losses, maintains international experts." so if the economical loss is approximately that high , then i think armenian economics would rise and only profit , and in my oppinion only an armenian-hater wouldnt want armenians to profit . i dont understand why you wouldnt want armenians to live more comfortable . a whole lot of armenians is already doing business in armenia by flying back and forth istanbul/yerevan and making money to live , so why shouldnt we also want turkey to open its ground border ? experts say that one reason why turkey wouldnt want to open the border is simply because it would only be in the profit of armenia , so turkey is thinking why should we open it.
Edward , can you please clearly explain me why you personally wouldnt want open borders ? thank you .

by the way, have you ever been in Armenia?

Yes , i live in armenia and in the EU . when have you been last in armenia Edward ? have you ever lived in armenia ? from your post above i suppose it was long time ago .

or you're just another "so-called Armenian from Istanbul" Kostantinapol.

obviously you hate armenians from istanbul , but please keep your racist thoughts for yourself in future . Racism towards armenians is not healthy . you are just insulting yourself , your armenity . besides that your comment has absolutely nothing to do with the topic here . if you want to complain to me then theres the PM button in this forum for you to use .

http://english.aljaz...AD885C17EAA.htm , JULY 31, 2007

Isolation

In Armenia's border villages, people are isolated for most of the winter, and are forced to live off the land.

The village leader told Al Jazeera there was nothing there: no jobs, all the young people have left the village to go to find work, and they are completely dependent on the harvest.

He said people had adapted to life behind a fence: "The border has always been closed there has never been any communication. I think it would be very nice if there was communication and interaction between us and the people across the border."

Local farmers can cross the Armenia-Turkey border but they need special permission in order to give water to their cattle.

In the village, no one can remember a time when the border was ever open.

Change

Armenia has only two out of four borders open.

It has stopped the economy from moving forward hundreds of millions of dollars of trade are lost every year. It is no surprise that Sargsyan wants change.

He had this message for Turkey's newly elected government: "We didn't choose the location of where we live and whatever happens we will have to be neighbours for a very long time. I think it would be better if Armenians and Turks come to an understanding."

Sargsyan may be willing to talk but the country still has a long way to go if wants to return to the days of the great Silk Road, when Armenia connected east with west.

Source: Al Jazeera

Edited by DeLaLa, 03 August 2007 - 06:24 AM.

[Takoush]

hello kakachik ,

it is maybe an argument that turkey states , but isnt that also the reality ? in what way should turkey profit from opening the border to armenia ? the only reason which comes in my mind is to enter the EU (turkey has to open the border to enter the EU) . armenian economy would only profit .

i think sarkissyan said a very realistic sentence here : “We cannot change our residence. In each case we will remain still long time neighbour. I think that an agreement would lie both in the interest of the Armenians and the Turks”

about my ideal policy solution ... thats another topic than in this thread . i am talking about the article i posted . opening /not opening the border , economical profit/gain . genocide and arsax we can discuss in other threads .

You live in Istanbul and Europe? Where? You also said that you have been in Armenia; but you do or don't live there now?

If you are on the side of Aremenia, then why are you stating that what would Turkey profit from it? It's obvious why turkey doesn't want to open their borders; because they've been denying the Genocide for great many years; they want to continue with their denyalist ways and because they want us to give our own lands of Artsax back which was ours before Stalin gave it to the Azeribababoons and after we fought for our own lands to get back since 15-18 years ago ; the turks are blockading Armenia siding with the Azeri baboons.

What I believe Edward was trying to tell you is that our economy in the caucasus has progressed very well already and keeps on progressing and it's in a very good state compared to the Caucasian countries. If the bloody turks open up their borders we then may have to give up some of our very important and vital rights, and that is unacceptable for us Armenians and I couldn't agree with Edward more.

1) It is imperative for turkey to accept our Genocide and give us back a good part of our lands since they annihilated about two million Armenians and has kicked us out of our anscestral lands of 4,000 years.

2) It is UNACCEPTABLE to give any of our hard earned Artsaxian lands back when our young men spared their valuable blood for it and they died for the Artsaxian lands.

Let the bloody turks close their borders (WE DON'T WANT THEIR BORDERS OPEN) who darn cares?????

I sure hope that Sargsyan knows what he is doing and he approaches this matter very very carefully and doesn't give any of our hard earned rights back!!!!!!!! Because if he does most Armenians won't put up with it (INCLUDING ME FIRSTLY AND ABOVE ALL)!!!!!!!!

Edited by Anahid Takouhi, 03 August 2007 - 05:05 PM.

[DeLaLa]

?

[AK-47]

Armenians left Armenia en masse during our worst times, back when we were going through an earthquake, a crumbling empire and a war... all of which pretty much destroyed our economy. Those times are long gone (although the war is frozen) and I remember reading that it's predicted that Armenia's population will start growing again somewhere between 2008 and 2010. While our economic growth is coming off a low base, it is remarkable that it is growing at such a fast pace (double digits every quarter) for a country with not alot of natural ressources and 2 blockades. While opening border with Turkey would benefit our GDP, Armenia will be overrun by cheap Turkish goods which I don't think is a good thing.

Sargsyan's comment is nothing but reality; Turkey is our neighbor. I don't see anything to admit here. But what is kind of unrealistic is actually thinking that you can persuade the Turk into opening its borders. Unless a gun is pointed to its head (EU forcing it to open as exchange to join), it won't open. It will find excuse after excuse after excuse. If not Artsakh, then land claims, then AG, then Metsamor, then Julfa etc etc etc. Simply said: Turkey is out to get Armenia. Btw, on another note about Sargsyan's comments...this can actually be false in the future if a Kurdistan is created. We can actually lose our border with Turkey if this happens. But anyways...

On the question if Armenia can become a mini-superpower in the region; of course it can. Look at Israel. Up until 1973, it had zero borders open and had fought 2-3 wars (although it had sea access, we have 2 borders open). But for this to happen, we will need to wait in the future when America turns its eye on Armenia to start controlling our Turkic Muslim neighbors. We are on the right track; we have a strong diaspora that helps the fatherland (same as those Zionists) and we'll need to create a symbiotic relationship between the two. Armenia is only a teenager (16 years old ).

[DeLaLa]

How can you compare Armenians living in other countries with Armenians living in Turkey? There is no comparison. None.

YES Anoushik , you are right , you can not compare armenians living in turkey with armenians living in other countries . the armenians in turkey are the best and most courageous armenians .

Edited by DeLaLa, 04 August 2007 - 04:16 PM.

[AVO]

sorry Delala, but I don't see anything Armenian in that video.

Even Andy knows whats up


and by the way I didn't see any of those "best and most courageous" Armenians fighting in the Artsakh war.

Edited by Avo47, 04 August 2007 - 05:27 PM.

[DeLaLa]

but there is armenians in turkey and you cant erase them , turkey wont get rid of armenians in turkey ! thats what turkey wants , but no chance . armenians in turkey would be cowards to leave them all the armenian institutions . armenians are present , and turkey will not just erase us . they WILL stay confronted with the armenian genocide until armenians do live even as a minority in the turkish state . we need to show presency . we are not a dead askh !
i dont understand the moral of armenian kaxakagans anyway ... i mean where is the moral? if you want to boykott opening the border of turkey because of the denial of the armenian genocide , then why why why tell me are approximately 80 000 armenian citizens working and living illegally in turkey ? why are the busses through giorgia to trabzone packed with armenians (30 hours drive) ? why are the beaches of antalya full of hayastanzi-tourists ? why are the planes full of armenians? why do armenians have to get that low to come to turkey to work as prostitutes to send their last cent to their family in armenia? where is the idealism and the moral in all this ? the gain of opening the border doesnt only mean we armenians would buy turkish products from turkey to sell in hayastan , it also means that we armenians can export goods to turkey , not only turkey .... a lot of companies dont work with armenia because of the difficulties to export/import because of the long complicated journey... besides that each time armenians have to travel for business over giorgia they have to pay the vratsis baxshish . so why shouldnt we diaspora stop being hypocrite and face the truth . armenia wants open borders , its the diaspora who doesnt agree. me personally , i prefer armenians to have a better economical situation in hayastan than seeing prostitutes in the streets of istanbul. do we armenians have to go that low? (also emancipation in armenia is still an enigma to me which maybe we can discuss in another thread) .
i also see that most of people arguing with me here have never been to turkey . a lot of armenians have prejudices . a lot of armenians in the diaspora dont believe it when you say so and so many hayastanzis make a life in turkey . its like talking against the walls if you sometimes discuss things like prostitution homosexuality emancipation and other tabu subjects with diaspora armenians . it is there but noone want to believe it .

ak jan , i posted this you tube .. do we armenians look like we live a terrible life in turkey ? no.

Edited by DeLaLa, 05 August 2007 - 04:49 AM.

[Դրօ]

but there is armenians in turkey and you cant erase them , turkey wont get rid of armenians in turkey ! thats what turkey wants , but no chance . armenians in turkey would be cowards to leave them all the armenian institutions . armenians are present , and turkey will not just erase us . they WILL stay confronted with the armenian genocide until armenians do live even as a minority in the turkish state . we need to show presency . we are not a dead askh !
i dont understand the moral of armenian kaxakagans anyway ... i mean where is the moral? if you want to boykott opening the border od turkey because of the denial od the armenian genocide , then why why why tell me are approximately 80 000 armenian citizens working and living illegally in turkey ? why are the busses through giorgia to trabzone packed with armenians (30 hours drive) ? why are the beaches of antalya full of hayastanzi-tourists ? why are the planes full of armenians? why do armenians have to get that low to come to turkey to work as prostitutes to send their last cent to their family in armenia? where is the idealism and the moral in all this ? the gain of opening the border doesnt only mean we armenians would buy turkish products from turkey to sell in hayastan , it also means that we armenians can export goods to turkey , not only turkey .... a lot of companies dont work with armenia because of the difficulties to export/import because of the long complicated journey... besides that each time armenians have to travel for business over giorgia they have to pay the vratsis baxshish . so why shouldnt we diaspora stop being hypocrite and face the truth . armenia wants open borders , its the diaspora who doesnt agree. me personally , i prefer armenians to have a better economical situation in hayastan than seeing prostitutes in the streets of istanbul. do we armenians have to go that low? (also emancipation in armenia is still an enigma to me which maybe we can discuss in another thread) .
i also see that most of people arguing with me here have never been to turkey . a lot of armenians have prejudices . a lot of armenians in the diaspora dont believe it when you say so and so many hayastanzis make a life in turkey . its like talking against the walls if you sometimes discuss things like prostitution homosexuality emancipation and other tabu subjects with diaspora armenians . it is there but noone want to believe it .

ak jan , i posted this you tube .. do we armenians look like we live a terrible life in turkey ? no.

This is exactly why I think the borders should stay closed. You think 80,000 illegal Armenian immigrants working there and doing prostitution is bad? Just imagine what would happen if the borders become wide open, giving free and complete access to Turkey.

Basically, what I am trying to tell you is this; if the Turkish-Armenian border were to open, then Turkey would have the ability to completely destroy Armenia without having to fire a single bullet.

[Դրօ]

What I believe Edward was trying to tell you is that our economy in the caucasus has progressed very well already and keeps on progressing and it's in a very good state compared to the Caucasian countries. If the bloody turks open up their borders we then may have to give up some of our very important and vital rights, and that is unacceptable for us Armenians and I couldn't agree with Edward more.

1) It is imperative for turkey to accept our Genocide and give us back a good part of our lands since they annihilated about two million Armenians and has kicked us out of our anscestral lands of 4,000 years.

2) It is UNACCEPTABLE to give any of our hard earned Artsaxian lands back when our young men spared their valuable blood for it and they died for the Artsaxian lands.

Let the bloody turks close their borders (WE DON'T WANT THEIR BORDERS OPEN) who darn cares?????

I sure hope that Sargsyan knows what he is doing and he approaches this matter very very carefully and doesn't give any of our hard earned rights back!!!!!!!! Because if he does most Armenians won't put up with it (INCLUDING ME FIRSTLY AND ABOVE ALL)!!!!!!!!

You couldn't have said it in a better way, Anahid.

[Aratta-Kingdom]

[quote name='DeLaLa' date='Aug 4 2007, 04:31 PM' post='208360']


1

"but there is armenians in turkey and you cant erase them , turkey wont get rid of armenians in turkey ! thats what turkey wants , but no chance . armenians in turkey would be cowards to leave them all the armenian institutions . armenians are present , and turkey will not just erase us . they WILL stay confronted with the armenian genocide until armenians do live even as a minority in the turkish state . we need to show presency . we are not a dead askh ! "


armenians are AZG, the turks are not. even the assassination of Hrant Dink did not force the armenians out of turkey.




2.
i dont understand the moral of armenian kaxakagans anyway ... i mean where is the moral?"


where is your moral, you son of a turk? for one who has no repsect for the others, must not speak about moral.





3.
"if you want to boykott opening the border od turkey because of the denial od the armenian genocide ,"


are you again blaming the others for your mistakes? how many times did the armenian side has offered to open the borders without preconditions? where is the moral of your government?







3.
"then why why why tell me are approximately 80 000 armenian citizens working and living illegally in turkey ?"

are you actually saying the number of the armenian citizens who live in turkey is higher from the number of the armeians who were born and raised withing the borders of turkey? didn't you learn you can't use this bogus numbers to gain ground against the armenians? when aliev the bitchoglu, promised to deport all the armenian citizens from turkey, he was hoping to gain a ground against the armenians from the negotiating process. didn't you learn the tactics of intimidation don't work with the armenians? can't you see you have failed?






4.
"why are the busses through giorgia to trabzone packed with armenians (30 hours drive) ?"


where you get this information from? the turkish government information sources?





5.
"why are the beaches of antalya full of hayastanzi-tourists ?"



WOW Instead of spending time in Sochi with the russian girls, the armenians now go to turkey impressive. LOL i'm speechless





6.
"why are the planes full of armenians?"


weren't you just talking about packed buses with armenians and some 30 hours drive? dude, you contradict yourself. just stop for a sec and watch how funny you make yourself look.








7.
"why do armenians have to get that low to come to turkey to work as prostitutes to send their last cent to their family in armenia?"



the nation of pigs (quoting 'midnight express' ) that has over 8 million illiterate women who think only about food and sex, you don't need to import prostitutes to satisfy your needs. while millions of hungry turks live turkey for europe and other parts of the world, you can only afford to got to bed with a donkey or a fat a$$ turkish woman.





8.
"where is the idealism and the moral in all this ?"





in ataturks grave.









9.
"the gain of opening the border doesnt only mean we armenians would buy turkish products from turkey to sell in hayastan , it also means that we armenians can export goods to turkey ,"



the turk is making promises. what's the slogan here? "Discover turkey and Live Your turkish Dream" ?








10.
"not only turkey .... a lot of companies dont work with armenia because of the difficulties to export/import because of the long complicated journey... besides that each time armenians have to travel for business over giorgia they have to pay the vratsis baxshish ."


will you remind me for what purpose baku-tbilisi-kars railway is built?





11.
"so why shouldnt we diaspora stop being hypocrite and face the truth . armenia wants open borders , its the diaspora who doesnt agree."


how many times have i told you the armenians of diaspora and the armenians of armenia are the same people? how many times the turkish government has tried and failed to create a division between the diaspora armenians and the armenains from armenia?

http://hyeforum.com/...6...40&start=40





12.
"me personally , i prefer armenians to have a better economical situation in hayastan than seeing prostitutes in the streets of istanbul. do we armenians have to go that low? (also emancipation in armenia is still an enigma to me which maybe we can discuss in another thread) . "


you suffer economicly because you have killed the gold goose(the armenians) of the ottoman empire. after the armenians are gone, you are left in hunger. the turks leave turkey by millions in search of a better life. anyone but you got right to give the armenians a lesson about economy





13.

"i also see that most of people arguing with me here have never been to turkey .J"


that's another way of saying let's discover a new america?





14.
"a lot of armenians have prejudices ."


so you are saying turkey is not the country where people are killed, arrested, tortured for saying the word 'GENOCIDE'?





15.

"a lot of armenians in the diaspora dont believe it when you say so and so many hayastanzis make a life in turkey ."


a lot of armenians in diaspora have friends and/or relatives in armenia and no one but you and the turkish government seems to know anything about "80,000 armenian citizens who live and work in turkey illegally".





16
"its like talking against the walls if you sometimes discuss things like prostitution homosexuality emancipation and other tabu subjects with diaspora armenians . it is there but noone want to believe it ."


having a discussion is one of the basic human rights. the citizens of turkey are deprived from their basic rights of free speech/expression. before you can preach anything to anyone, you better learn to respect the basic rights of the others...and your citizens first of all...




"ak jan , i posted this you tube .. do we armenians look like we live a terrible life in turkey ? no."


didn't you earlier make a statement that the armenians of turkey live in fear? don't you see how you constantly contradict yourself...?

Edited by Aratta-Kingdom, 07 August 2007 - 09:11 PM.

[Anoushik]

YES Anoushik , you are right , you can not compare armenians living in turkey with armenians living in other countries . the armenians in turkey are the best and most courageous armenians .

Delala, what's your point with that video? Are those Armenians? And in which language is the song?

I don't see anything courageous about the Armenians living in Turkey. Just like I don't see anything courageous with the Armenians living in other countries besides Armenia (yes, including me and my family). The true courageous Armenians are the Armenians living in Armenia and Artsakh.

[Anoushik]

but there is armenians in turkey and you cant erase them , turkey wont get rid of armenians in turkey ! thats what turkey wants , but no chance . armenians in turkey would be cowards to leave them all the armenian institutions .

Delala, that's just an easy cover-up of an argument, which conceals the truth that those Armenians in Turkey are just living a life of convenience. There is nothing altruistic about the Armenians who choose to live in Turkey.

ak jan , i posted this you tube .. do we armenians look like we live a terrible life in turkey ? no.

See what I mean? These are your words!

[Anoushik]

Delala, that's just an easy cover-up of an argument, which conceals the truth that those Armenians in Turkey are just living a life of convenience.

I should say that the one Armenian who was truly courageous and truly altruistic paid with his life. The rest don't come even close to him.

[Takoush]

You couldn't have said it in a better way, Anahid.

Shenorhagal em Tro jan. Thank you Tro jan. I should have known you are from Montreal where I came from and the better Armenians are from Montreal, Quebec, Canada.