140 replies to this topic

[shiner]

Under poverty line in the U.S. probably means average in some other countries. And these people have opportunities to get out much more than elsewhere.

[joseph parikian]

30 million people under poverty line.  This is successful????

Please dont compare poverty in USA with poverty in other countries .
When Khroutsef was visiting the United States he said to Nixon
The train of comunism will pass the USA and look back and wave BYE BYE
Now i wander who went BYE BYE and where .

[Sip]

30 million people under poverty line. This is successful????

Not "just" successfull ... actually VERY successful.

[Sip]

By the way, those of you who are advocating "worker's democracy" or what not ... can you gurantee lower poverty rates and better quality of life than the US? If so, I'll sign up right away ... after all, why should I bust my butt trying to make ends meet under this capitalist system when I can sit and do nothing with my thumb up my whereever under your system that can guarantee my utopia?

[Dan]

Sip, how would a worker's democracy mean sitting and doing nothing and putting your thumb up your wherever? The worker's utopia is not to be lazy and get paid for it, it's to be equally paid for equal jobs. Of course, selling food is incomparable to building houses, and the pay would have to be higher, but that's what is equal anyhow. We're not talking about equal pay for people who do unequal amount/quality of work.

For more on that, read Sir Thomas More's Utopia, a great satirical book about that and other related issues.

Not "just" successfull ... actually VERY successful.

Depends on where you view that success from. If you're talking about success from the viewpoint of the capitalist boss, then of course. If you're viewing it from the viewpoint of the homeless, then I don't think it's successful at all. It may be considered a success in that it may be more productive than the system I am talking about, but for whom is it productive? For the leaders only. And don't even tell me that in capitalist societies, you work, you get paid. There's no such thing as that. There are a lot of people who are not lazy, who are qualified, but who are not given the chance or the job to be able to support themselves. Do you truly believe that all homeless people are lazy bums who CHOSE to live on the streets or in shelters instead of having a house or apartment, taking the bus to work every day, and having a bread to eat every day, even if that would mean busting their butt trying to make ends meet?

Please dont compare poverty in USA with poverty in other countries .

Why not? I say they're comparable. If I am going to advocate a system of society, I prefer to support a system that is poor but equally poor, rather than a system that is poor but unfairly so.

30 million people under poverty line. This is successful????

Shahumyan - successful to those who don't care about the workers or even those who don't hold jobs. That's what capitalism is all about. It's an almost practical version of the survival of the fittest, except that the fittest is not the qualified person, but the one with more connections...

The train of comunism will pass the USA and look back and wave BYE BYE
Now i wander who went BYE BYE and where .

The only reason communism did not survive was because it was applied incorrectly. Stalin is not what communism is all about. He abused the system for his own purposes, exactly the opposite of what real communism preaches.

Here is what Trotsky said in his "If America Should Go Communist":

At present most Americans regard communism solely in the light of the experience of the Soviet Union. They fear lest Sovietism in America would produce the same material result as it has brought for the culturally backward peoples of the Soviet Union.
They fear lest communism should try to fit them to a bed of Procrustes, and they point to the bulwark of Anglo-Saxon conservatism as an insuperable obstacle even to possibly desirable reforms. They argue that Great Britain and Japan would undertake military intervention against the American soviets. They shudder lest Americans be regimented in their habits of dress and diet, be compelled to subsist on famine rations, be forced to read stereotyped official propaganda in the newspapers, be coerced to serve as rubber stamps for decisions arrived at without their active participation or be required to keep their thoughts to themselves and loudly praise their soviet leaders in public, through fear of imprisonment and exile.
They fear monetary inflation, bureaucratic tyranny and intolerable red tape in obtaining the necessities of life. They fear soulless standardization in the arts and sciences, as well as in the daily necessities of life. They fear that all political spontaneity and the presumed freedom of the press will be destroyed by the dictatorship of a monstrous bureaucracy. And they shudder at the thought of being forced into an uncomprehended glibness in Marxist dialectic and disciplined social philosophies. They fear, in a word, that Soviet America will become the counterpart of what they have been told Soviet Russia looks like.
...
Who else will fight against communism? Your corporal's guard of billionaires and multimillionaires? Your Mellons, Morgans, Fords and Rockefellers?

Please name me one comunist model country , or where comunism succeeded and turn that country to " WORKERS PARADISE "

There may be no worker's paradise, but there is no democratic paradise either; and if you think there is, then you are seriously delusional. However, I'd say that Cuba is as close as we have come to worker's paradise. And please, don't even start with "how about the thousands of Cubans fleeing to Florida?", because they are a small number of people who don't care about their own country or anything else except their own selfish interests. Proof of that is, when you leave your country and don't work to make it a better place, and instead cross over to your enemy's country and then say that at the slightest opportunity when Castro dies and hopefully Cuba "opens up" to capitalism, you will go there and stay there and work, then that's just pure selfish interest, truly capitalistic. And well, I don't think anyone who hasn't fought for his country against greedy invaders like the U.$ (and yes, U$A is greedy for land and colonization and industrialization) has any right to go back and witness the supposedly good days of it. But that's just my opinion. You can't expect others to fight and die for your country while you are out there talking against your own leader, and then expect your own country and people to welcome you with open arms. That is distasteful, base, and really f***ed up.

And to see more about the dangers of capitalism and abuse of industrialization, read Emile Zola's Germinal.

And no, I am not bookish. My personal opinions do not stem from books, but rather from my own judgements of those books and the realities they represent.

Edited by Dan, 07 December 2003 - 06:42 PM.

[Sip]

Sip, how would a worker's democracy mean sitting and doing nothing and putting your thumb up your wherever?

I'm just saying throwing "poverty numbers" up isn't necessarily an indication of a failing system. Sometimes (not always of course) you have to hold the poor also responsible for their condition. No matter what kind of system you have, you will have those that are more motivated than others to succeed in life ... "blind equality" is not a right and more often than not, status must be earned.

The system in the US is one of the very few that has ever existed where you can be born in a pitch poor family and end up living a comfortable lower middle class (if not better) life. Not to mention those that go all the way to the top (of course that is more the exception than the norm). But the dynamics of the society here is such that you are not "fixed" within a class ... even in one generation you can make huge leaps (or fall backs).

[Dan]

I'm just saying throwing "poverty numbers" up isn't necessarily an indication of a failing system.

Like I said, I believe it all depends on how you view it and where you view it from; i.e. if you're viewing it from the view of leaders of capitalism, big companies, etc., then yeah, I agree that it's not a failing system. But if you view it from the common person's viewpoint and seeing the number of homeless people in a supposedly advanced country, it's a good pointer to something wrong in society...

Sometimes (not always of course) you have to hold the poor also responsible for their condition.

More often than not, it is society that is to be held responsible for the condition of the poor. People have a wrong idea about homeless people - my mother, for example, thinks that homeless people are homeless by choice, even though the government offered them homes, but they refused, because they just like lying there on the streets in the freezing cold............... Do you think any sane person would prefer that to having liveable conditions?

status must be earned.

In order for status to be earned, there must be the opportunity. Creating opportunities is not as easy as you think. Creating opportunities in a capitalistic society is pretty hard.

The system in the US is one of the very few that has ever existed where you can be born in a pitch poor family and end up living a comfortable lower middle class (if not better) life.

The poster family that lifted itself from poverty and is now living in a house and can support itself is just the media propaganda of capitalism, unfortunately... at least in my opinion.

No matter what kind of system you have, you will have those that are more motivated than others to succeed in life ...

Yes, you may be right, but there is a big difference between success and being able to get the basics to survive... Yeah, some people might not have huge dreams of success, but I think everyone, by virtue of their own human nature and needs, is motivated to do something to at least keep on living. That's how people are. Or at least sane people. Of course, there is a small group of stupidly proud people who absolutely refuse to work even if they might die of hunger. I'm not talking about those. I'm talking about the majority of people who had no choice but to be homeless.

Edited by Dan, 07 December 2003 - 06:53 PM.

[Sip]

Creating opportunities is not as easy as you think. Creating opportunities in a capitalistic society is pretty hard.

I fully disagree with you.

And I am "looking" at the poverty line from the perspective of someone who came here about 13 years ago without a penny and is now driving around in two cars and stuffing his face in all you can eat buffets at least once every two weeks. Yah I have enough loans to keep me with a "negative balance" portfolio until maybe 20 or 30 years from now but I don't consider myself "poor"... and all signs indicate that if I keep my head out of my rear end, I will be able to one day work myself back up into the "positive" zone.

[Sip]

... but I think everyone, by virtue of their own human nature and needs, is motivated to do something to at least keep on living. That's how people are. Or at least sane people. Of course, there is a small group of stupidly proud people who absolutely refuse to work even if they might die of hunger. I'm not talking about those. I'm talking about the majority of people who had no choice but to be homeless.

That is a very naive way of looking at things. Hopefully one day you will have a chance to spend a few days as a teacher looking at a wide variety of students. It is completely obvious that some of them are doomed to ending up as homeless bum crack addicts. Some of them simply don't have the ability to succeed even if they try very very very hard ... and some of them are so naturally gifted that they will do fine no matter what. This is a FACT of life that any "system" must take into account...

Now if you want to tell me certain groups in the US have unfair disadvantages ... sure I won't argue with you. A kid born in gang infested areas of south central LA is at a tremendous disadvantage. The US isn't perfect. But by taking two kids from white middle-class suburb US of A, giving them equal opportunities, one may end up a drunk bum while the other could become the next Bill Gates. Any system MUST take this fact into account.

[MJ]

Now if you want to tell me certain groups in the US have unfair disadvantages ... sure I won't argue with you. A kid born in gang infested areas of south central LA is at a tremendous disadvantage. The US isn't perfect.

Sip,

In what country that kind of kid would not be disadvantaged?

Take someone from Canada, for example...

BTW, in my neighborhood several permanent homeless people hang around. They are part of the landscape. They definitely are homeless by choice, and meantime, make good wages on the street... better than some who work in the businesses around make. Overall, they seem to be very happy people. And surely, if they wanted to go to a shelter, there is one for them. They get social security benefits, they get money from the by passers, frequently they enter the local restaurants and get free food just so that they don't frighten their customers and so on. Overall they even save money. This is the reality. It is harder for a regular employed person to save money.

There are also those of course who are homeless not by choice... in every reality and every country.

[DominO]

There is no superior government system, there is just people with good and bad intentions.

Yalpa and I had a good discussion about this in another forum before the other place became a chitchat trash place. Our conclusion was that a real communist system can't work if it is serounded by other systems that differ importantly from it.(but yalpa found an orginal way to try to correct this situation. )

Of course the opposit could be true as well, capitalism could not work if it is serounded by other systems that differ importantly from it. For example if the US was the only capitalism system and the rest of the world were to be communist, I dought that it could survive.

Political systems are as screwed as humanity. We build our systems, we could possibly not expect a less unperfect(less unperfect, sound like a paradox ) system than we are unperfect.

Edited by Fadix, 07 December 2003 - 08:04 PM.

[joseph parikian]

The only reason communism did not survive was because it was applied incorrectly.

If that is true then you tell us the correct way to apply comunism without quoting from other peoples explenations

There may be no worker's paradise, but there is no democratic paradise either; and if you think there is, then you are seriously delusional. However, I'd say that Cuba is as close as we have come to worker's paradise. And please, don't even start with "how about the thousands of Cubans fleeing to Florida?", because they are a small number of people who don't care about their own country or anything else except their own selfish interests.

Sure thats why they execute Cubans that try to leave Castro's paradise to come to USA'S HELL
Yeh and one more thing all over the world you see people lined up in front of the Cuban , North Korean and the Peoples Republic of China's embecies asking to join and enjoy the benefits of their Paradises
Remember that you are enjoying the freedoms and oportunitis of a Capitalst Country

Edited by joseph parikian, 08 December 2003 - 12:31 AM.

[gurgen]

Then why does this great capitalist country have the highest murder and crime rate in all the world? Don't tell me that it's such a big country, because there are biggers ones......

Has it ever occured to you that everything in your great capitalist country might be a big show and that it is actually still ruled by crime and corruption?

[Dan]

Remember that you are enjoying the freedoms and oportunitis of a Capitalst Country

That's one of the biggest fallacies I've encountered in a while - it's an argumentum ad hominem (attacking the person) tu quoque. Attacking the person by saying that he/she should practice what he preaches, and that if he/she lives in the country he/she is criticizing then that means that he/she is wrong or his/her arguments are wrong...

But on another note - what opportunities are you talking about? I live in a capitalist country that brings hundreds of thousands of poor people from china with the hope of attracting even more, having in mind the destruction of the communist system... are you telling me that under the immigration point system we have here in Canada, that chinese guy who comes here and becomes homeless or collapses on the government is more qualified than I am, having lived in Canada for more than 2 years, knowing the language, being literate, unlike 99% of the chinese / indians they bring here?

And what freedom are you talking about? Freedom to do whatever one wants? Freedom to protest and then get charged for things one didn't do, when cops produce fake videos of you rioting? When cops arrest you for THINKING about killing yourself when the Criminal Code does not say anything about it being illegal? When you get held in a hospital for days and days, without being given the right to make a call and get legal aid? When cops call your parents even though you're not underage, and tell them that you're queer, and basically cause you to become homeless? What freedom are we talking about?

....

Now tell me... What freedom is that?

[gurgen]

Indeed you have proven my point.
Thanks

[joseph parikian]

Now tell me... What freedom is that?

It is the freedom that lets you free to say what you think without being picked and put in consentration camps and have your brain washed or even disappear with out a trace.

Edited by joseph parikian, 08 December 2003 - 02:39 PM.

[Dan]

It is the freedom that lets you free to say what you think without being picked and put in consentration camps and have your brain washed or even disappear with out a trace.

Did you even read what I wrote?
v
v
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Freedom to protest and then get charged for things one didn't do, when cops produce fake videos of you rioting? When cops arrest you for THINKING about killing yourself when the Criminal Code does not say anything about it being illegal? When you get held in a hospital for days and days, without being given the right to make a call and get legal aid?

[Shahumyan]

I went to an anti-war rally recently, we got the right booting from the pigs. damn proveceurs!

However, it was a youth rally, so as they provoked us, all hell broke loose, charging horses, riot vans, pigs everywhere, like 1917 all over i wish...

[Dan]

lol, Shahumyan... I went to all the anti-war rallies here in Toronto from March and onwards, and I'm telling you, it was terrible. The pigs were all over the place. There was a student/youth protest too, and wow, I've never seen anything like that - we were like 500 students to 1 pig. lol.. it was great. they couldn't do anything. they hadn't expected so much people to pour out of the subway all of a sudden. they asked for backup immediately. And then the student march joined the other groups, and boy, it was one freaking riot then, and to add to that, it was at rush hour at the heart of downtown Toronto. And we were at the U.$. consulate... I was at the front line, where the pigs were standing behind the iron barriers. I had 2 mssges on my flag - one against the U.$ government, and the other against the pigs, which really pissed them off.. I used the same flag on another occasion - as I was walking through a back street before the rally had started, i turned to my left side and saw a civilian van, and looked inside and guess what I saw... there were cops in there.. I clearly saw them.. lol.. so I ran, cos I knew they were gonna target me if I remained alone for another minute, and they started driving right beside me... luckily I was a coupla metres from the corner, and upon making the turn, there was a crowd there... That was the scariest experience I've ever had before a rally even started. Another experience I had was when the pigs let out the horsies, and they were coming at us, and if someone hadn't pulled me back, i would've been crushed under a confused horse... and then another time a pig spat on me cos i said out loud "we don't want racist cops"... lmao... and on another occasion, there was a cop on a bike passing right by me, and I held out my flag so he could read what was on it, and it said "NO to police brutality", and he was like "i'm gonna f*** you real good, you f****t." Those are the "people" who are supposedly serving and protecting us...

And the time I was at the front line in front of the consulate, the pigs were ordered to put on their gas masks and told us to evacuate the place otherwise they would start using tear gas on us... And then one person started throwing stones at them... Uhhhmm, he turned out to be a plainclothes officer (talk about dirty tactics to justify their attack on us) - people were standing around him and pointing at him, yelling that he was one of them.. lmao.. after that there was a riot, of course, we were close to being gased, but we weren't, cos there were kids and seniors out there, esp. the front lines, and they took away the signs that said that we should evacuate... not to mention, we brought all the reporters and cameramen to the front to capture what they were doing, and they had no choice but to back away from their actions lol. a coupla people were arrested for obstructing an officer (i.e. pointing him out for the general public to realize that he was not "one of us" lol) Another person was arrested, but we attacked the cops, and pulled her away before they could handcuff her. Ohhhh, and then our dear police chief came out, and people were yelling at him.. naturally, he was trying to supress a huge laugh and was desparately trying to look grave..

I have tons of pics of police riots - i put some of it in my album, and here's the link. The album also has some pics from the Vietnam war protests.. I have another set of pics that I haven't scanned in yet (the pics of the riot.)

Now now, those who are arguing for capitalism on the bases of its democracy and freedom, is that what democracy looks like?

http://gallery.cyber...s.php?album=981

Edited by Dan, 09 December 2003 - 01:05 PM.

[Sasun]

I went to an anti-war rally recently, we got the right booting from the pigs.  damn proveceurs!

However, it was a youth rally, so as they provoked us, all hell broke loose, charging horses, riot vans, pigs everywhere, like 1917 all over i wish...

was piggy wiggy also there by any chance?