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#1 Harut

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Posted 06 February 2002 - 03:15 PM

Just like i promised.

ok, my first question is not going to be hard (i think).
how many of you know Visual Basic?
this is the only language that i'm learning now. i don't know any other language yet, excapt the old regular BASIC that i learned some 7 years ago, when i was only 12.

now the second question.

i'm almost finished with the introductory book they give us at college. it's from Sams Teach Yourself series. it's called "Visual Basic 6 in 24 Hours".
most likely i'll finish it in a week. i learned most of the stuff it talks about. i even went beyond by trying stuff by myself.

now that i still have a month left until next term, where i'll start a new language, i want to expand my knowledge on VB6.

but, the problem is i don't know which publishers are the best. i don't know which books are the best.
so if you know, please, tell us which publishers i should trust, and which books are the best for learning a porgramming language (VB6 for now).

that's it for now.
thank you.

#2 Sip

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Posted 06 February 2002 - 06:20 PM

I know Visual Basic fairly well but haven't used it much in the past few years. The one I have used a lot was Version 3.0 and the stuff they have in MS Office to write some macros once in a while.

In my opinion, you don't need any more books. You need books just to get you started. After that, you have to learn to use the references/help on your own.

First, make sure you know all BASIC keywords. Then go through the statements and just take a look at what's there. Try to write simple programs that use some of the different statements. You don't need to memorize all of them but as long as you know that they exist, later on you can easily find them in the references and see how to use them. All these things are in the help and very well organized.

After that, play around with all the controls ... like Checkbox, Combobox, etc etc. Try to make simple programs that use those. As you know, each of those things have methods, properties, and events. Play around with them to see how changing the methods effect the outcomes. You are not going to memorize each and every one. After some time, you will get a good feeling and "know" what to expect and how thins work (believe me!)

That's pretty much it! The rest will just come to you. Once you master the basics of Visual Basic, then you can start doing more advanced things like using external libraries, talking to other applications and systems (like writing client/server stuff) but that will come later. Give it time and be patient but you have to play around and mess with stuff on your own. There is no other way around it. Of course ask if you are unsure about something

#3 Azat

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Posted 06 February 2002 - 07:06 PM

quote:

how many of you know Visual Basic?


I know VB well. I would say I use it at least for few hours per week.

quote:

i'm almost finished with the introductory book they give us at college. it's from Sams Teach Yourself series. it's called "Visual Basic 6 in 24 Hours". most likely i'll finish it in a week. i learned most of the stuff it talks about. i even went beyond by trying stuff by myself.


These books do not work if you do not follow as it says on the title. You have to finish the book in 24 hours or else you wont learn anything.

Okay not more jokes. I just looked at my shelf of books that I have in my office and I have about 50 tech books and many are SAMS books. I think SAMS are a good series. However the two VB specific books that I have(and these may not be good for a beginner, but are essential for hard core VB) are Dan Appelman's "Visual Basic Programmers Guide to the WIN32 API" and "VB .NET Language in a Nutshell". I also have couple of VB related books from Oreilly(ADO in a Nutshell and ASP in a Nutshell)

For a beginner you may want to also consider the Bible series of books besides SAMS.

Also, there are MANY resources online that that be great help for you when you are writing code. Use Google to find them or if you want send me your email via PM and I will send you my VB branch from the "Favorites" list from IE.

If you have specific questions please feel free.

#4 Garo

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Posted 06 February 2002 - 09:49 PM

I don't use VB much. Only in some rare cases when I need to write macros for MS Word or Excel.
Sip and Azat already gave you enough information to start but I'd add a few words as well. Find a good book or a website about the existing operating systems if you're serious about programming. People are trying to make a program having no idea what's going on inside of the program, how the operating system handles it and runs. Especially when they're using visual tools for development.
Spend some time on learning about different programming methods as well - modular, object oriented and so on. Then you'll have much more clear understanding of what you're doing, what you can do or can not do using specific operating system, programming language or programming method.




[ February 06, 2002: Message edited by: Garo ]

#5 Sip

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Posted 06 February 2002 - 10:51 PM

Very good point Garo. Basically anyone can learn to drive a car but the ones that are really good at it, must have good knowledge of how a car operates and how each of the components work.

Computers are also the same way. You have to get a good idea of how different components work ... what is the general architecture of modern computers, how memory system works, how things are organized and stored in RAM and on disk, what happens when you call a function, etc. Having a good base there will make programming much easier.

Visual basic hides a lot of the complexities from the programmer so in that sense it is great for beginners. But, it is easy to get caught up with the visuals and the hand-holding and forget about exactly what is happening in your program.

You also have another complexity and that is the Windows environment. Usually, when people learn to program, they start with simple interfaces such as the command line in dos or linux (console programs). There are a LOT of things that go on in managing the GUI (Graphic User Interface) and Windows. Again, Visual Basic will take care of all of that so you don't have to worry to start, but it is a good idea to learn those and start thinking about them. So a good book on windows programming will be helpful.

Unfortunately, I didn't use any books so I can't recommend any. I have a couple of books that teach the Windows internals for moderate to expert C/C++ programmers but they won't help you much. My main language is C/C++ but I would not recommend starting to mess with Visual C++ for Windows programming any time soon !!!! ... but for writing simple "console" applications, Visual C++ is great.

#6 Garo

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Posted 06 February 2002 - 11:59 PM

I think the 'driver-car' is more close to 'user-computer' than to 'programmer-computer'. A car constructor will be more accurate.
Also I think for the beginning there's no need to have complete knowledge about how specific functions/mechanisms exactly work inside your computer/operating system. Just understanding the logic how they work will be enough. Some detailed reviews of specific subjects (DOS vs Windows, or Windows vs Unix for exmple) are very good sources for this kind of information.

#7 Sip

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Posted 07 February 2002 - 01:51 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Garo:
I think the 'driver-car' is more close to 'user-computer' than to 'programmer-computer'. A car constructor will be more accurate.


Ha Ha Ha! We disagree there I think of "user-computer" as more like "passenger-car" ... maybe more like "passenger-taxi". You tell the driver what you want, and the driver does it. May or may not be exactly what you wanted. Some are more like "passenger-bus" .. they just get off at the closest exit

The programmer was the driver who doesn't know enough to build the car from scratch but can/should have a good knowledge of how the car works.

Anyway, I know it is a rediculous example but since we were on the subject ...

I am not saying that a programmer (especially a beginner) should have complete knowledge of all the internal details but it sure does help... especially when you get into multi-threading, sophisticated memory management, and ultra-high performance software (like games).

#8 Garo

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Posted 07 February 2002 - 10:24 AM

multi-threading, sophisticated memory management, and ultra-high performance software (like games) using Visual Basic?
Ok let's not scare Harut. For a college student understanding the logic how all these works will be enough to start. He'll sit and learn how exactly this or that thing works later.

Sip still I disagree with your model but let's not discuss it in this thread. We can use private messages or emails.

[ February 07, 2002: Message edited by: Garo ]

#9 Sip

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Posted 07 February 2002 - 01:54 PM

Yah sorry Harut I really got carried away there! Don't worry about my blabbering too much. Main point being be patient and try and explore many things on your own ... best way to learn programming.

#10 Harut

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Posted 07 February 2002 - 05:56 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Sip:

In my opinion, you don't need any more books. You need books just to get you started. After that, you have to learn to use the references/help on your own.


the reason i want to continue with another book (maybe more in-depth one) is because this one is too introductory (at least i think so). i see other VB books in library that are 5'' thik, and this one has only 24 tiny chapters, and that leaves me with a scare that i haven't learned anything with this book.

quote:
After some time, you will get a good feeling and "know" what to expect and how thins work (believe me!)


and i thought i have to read books first, so later i will have the feeling of expectation.

quote

That's pretty much it!  The rest will just come to you. Once you master the basics of Visual Basic, then you can start doing more advanced things like using external libraries, talking to other applications and systems (like writing client/server stuff) but that will come later.


but later i'll again need to read some books to learn those advanced stuff, right? or i'll learn them again but messing with?

#11 Harut

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Posted 07 February 2002 - 06:05 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Azat:

These books do not work if you do not follow as it says on the title. You have to finish the book in 24 hours or else you wont learn anything.


really? then forget about this topic, i spent 24.1 hours on it.

quote[quote]Okay not more jokes. I just looked at my shelf of books that I have in my office and I have about 50 tech books and many are SAMS books. I think SAMS are a good series. However the two VB specific books that I have(and these may not be good for a beginner, but are essential for hard core VB) are Dan Appelman's "Visual Basic Programmers Guide to the WIN32 API" and "VB .NET Language in a Nutshell". I also have couple of VB related books from Oreilly(ADO in a Nutshell and ASP in a Nutshell)[/quote]

so, you're saying SAMS is good. i'll stick with it.
i'll also check those two you mentioned.

quote[quote]For a beginner you may want to also consider the Bible series of books besides SAMS.[/quote]

a couple of months ago i pick up one those VB Bible books, but it was so big i thought it's for more advanced programmers. i'll check it again, maybe i AM an advanced programmer now.

[/quote][/qb]Also, there are MANY resources online that that be great help for you when you are writing code. Use Google to find them or if you want send me your email via PM and I will send you my VB branch from the "Favorites" list from IE.
[/QB][/QUOTE]

if you could, please, send those things. use the e-mail on my profile.

i actually spent some time on the internet a few weeks ago searching for VB stuff. but all i was getting were for advanced people, because they were using all the terms that i'd never heard of.

#12 Harut

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Posted 07 February 2002 - 06:13 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Garo:
[QB]Sip and Azat already gave you enough information to start but I'd add a few words as well. Find a good book or a website about the existing operating systems if you're serious about programming. People are trying to make a program having no idea what's going on inside of the program, how the operating system handles it and runs. Especially when they're using visual tools for development.
Spend some time on learning about different programming methods as well - modular, object oriented and so on. Then you'll have much more clear understanding of what you're doing, what you can do or can not do using specific operating system, programming language or programming method.
[QB]


i study those in college too. right now i have a course that introduces to computer hardware, how they work, memories, their roles, etc.
also, in the same course i study OS's (windows, macs, linux, dos, ...), but again just an intro. they say we'll spend more time on them in couple of semesters.

#13 Harut

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Posted 07 February 2002 - 06:19 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Garo:

Also I think for the beginning there's no need to have complete knowledge about how specific functions/mechanisms exactly work inside your computer/operating system. Just understanding the logic how they work will be enough. Some detailed reviews of specific subjects (DOS vs Windows, or Windows vs Unix for exmple) are very good sources for this kind of information.



for understanding the basics of the programming language, one has even recomended to read about COBAL. he says just read without spending too much time on it trying to learn it. he says COBAL gives a great info on how every single detail works.

what do you guys think?

#14 Harut

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Posted 07 February 2002 - 06:23 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Garo:
[QB]multi-threading, sophisticated memory management, and ultra-high performance software (like games) using Visual Basic?
Ok let's not scare Harut.[QB]


see, many people say this.
that's why i sometimes wonder myself whenther i should spend time on VB or not.
sometimes i think it's better to spend that time on studying things you guys mentioned above (basic, fundamental stuff).
and then i could study more sophysticated languages.

what do you guys say?

#15 Sip

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Posted 07 February 2002 - 07:25 PM

No No No! First learn to walk then learn to run, then go for the marathon. Visual Basic is great to start. That's how I started ... actually it was the BASIC on Commodore 64 and then GWBasic and Quick Basic in Dos then Visual Basic. Those things will come later down the road. For some faster than for others ...

#16 Azat

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Posted 07 February 2002 - 08:38 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Harut:


for understanding the basics of the programming language, one has even recomended to read about COBAL. he says just read without spending too much time on it trying to learn it. he says COBAL gives a great info on how every single detail works.

what do you guys think?




Harut jan, do you enjoy root canals? If so go ahead, if not, do not ever listen to that friend again.


VB is a good way to learn structured programming. It is a good tool for small apps and some mid size apps, but most corporations do not use VB for core software development. Lear VB well and move on to C/C++ adn try to master that.

[ February 07, 2002: Message edited by: Azat ]

#17 MosJan

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Posted 07 February 2002 - 10:34 PM

Garo jan du es mi Post@ mi karda >

HArout jan harst chka aper , problem unenas indz asa, do xom gides te yes vonts em tirapetum et lezunerin.


lseq es C++ incha ???

#18 SAS

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Posted 08 February 2002 - 03:47 AM

Harut,

Movsesn asum e arden 1000-ic avel post es arel:

Da &isht e, te Movses@ "vred...post a anum"?

Yete na &isht e, ba el zhamank kmna lezu sovorelu?...

Isk yete lurj, apa da kaxvats e any banic, te INCHOV es zbaghvelu?

Chkan LAV "Programming Languages", kan konkret problemner:Amen mi xndir pahanjum e ir lezun:

Bayc du hayerenic karchir` mnacatsn ancoghik baner en...
____
SAS

#19 Harut

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Posted 11 February 2002 - 05:33 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Sip:
No No No! First learn to walk then learn to run, then go for the marathon. Visual Basic is great to start. That's how I started ... actually it was the BASIC on Commodore 64 and then GWBasic and Quick Basic in Dos then Visual Basic. Those things will come later down the road. For some faster than for others ...


i guess i need to learn walking now, because i can move by "choreqtat" already.

actually i learned BASIC back in '95 in Armenia, when i was only 12. it was fun.
we spent about 8 months on that language.
but i didn't learn much (even though i tried VERY hard) because first i didn't speak English, second i was too young to understand the concepts, and plus i didn't own computer, so the only time i can use a computer was in class.

#20 Harut

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Posted 11 February 2002 - 05:35 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Azat:



Harut jan, do you enjoy root canals? If so go ahead, if not, do not ever listen to that friend again.


VB is a good way to learn structured programming. It is a good tool for small apps and some mid size apps, but most corporations do not use VB for core software development. Lear VB well and move on to C/C++ adn try to master that.

[ February 07, 2002: Message edited by: Azat ]



Who is root canal?

i guess i have to steack with VB.




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