144 replies to this topic

[Armenian Highlander]

To begin with: discussions about the Armenian Genocide with Turks are senseless exercises in futility. Moreover, such debates have degenerated to the point that it only serves to undermine the national ideology and cohesiveness of us Armenians. Nevertheless, the fundamental answer of all self-respecting Armenians to every single Turkic inquiry regarding Turko-Armenian relations is a simple one: there was a historic crime perpetrated by Turks against the Armenian people that yet needs to be punished. Since some of you Turks and Turk lovers seem capable of varying degrees of rational thought, then you should realize that all crimes, regardless of severity, needs to get punished accordingly. That is how the universal order works, that is how rational works that is how human behavior works. Through my experiences, I have noticed that there are two fundamental types of Turks regarding their ideological approach to the Armenian Genocide. The first type (most probably the majority): is very satisfied with what happened to the Armenians during the First World War and, moreover, would not hesitate one bit at attempting it again (as we have seen on countless occasions during the past fifteen years). The other type (who is subservient to the first type): just wants to "whitewash" and make "excuses" for what happened back then and wants us to move "forward."

Its simple folks: we move forward by punishing, sooner or later, the guilty nation that committed the barbaric crime - and this cannot happen by trying to reconcile with those who still wish us dead. Speak to me about "reconciliation" with Turks when the Turkish state is reduced to rubble - then and only then will I even consider reconciliation with a Turk. As I keep repeating: "well meaning" Turks need to preach to their primitive brethren - NOT US. I, personally, do not want engage in futile practices such as "explaining" and "convincing" anything to any moron that does not know the obvious. The bottom line is: just a few decades ago there was a large Armenian population living within its aboriginal lands and, today - there are none. Therefore, I do not want to engage in verbal gymnastics by discussing "why did it happen," "how did it happen," "what was the exact number of dead," "who was responsible," "how do we move forward..." Whether Turks come within Armenian forums to apologize "sincerely," or come here because they are 'told' to do so - does not matter within the larger context. For that matter, some of self-defeating rhetoric of the self-hating Armenian filth that these Turks converse with do not matter either. There have been self-hating Armenians throughout our long and bloody history - during the Ottoman years they were known as the Sultan's lapdogs.

Nevertheless, in order to emphasize and highlight the utter pointlessness, futility and counter-productiveness of a debate with Turks regarding the Armenian Genocide, I have written the following 'dialogue,' which in essence, is a typical progression of a rhetorical discussion a typical Armenian will potentially have with a typical Turk. I have "projected" this dialogue based on numerous discussions and debates I have been personally engaged in, or been exposed to previously. Therefore, with the following I am confident that I will successfully highlight the pointlessness of discussing the Armenian Genocide with Turks.

Turks are going to start by asking: what is the problem with you people regarding us Turks?

Armenians are going to say: Turks persecuted it's loyal Armenians to the point of extinction within Anatolia.

Turks are going to reply: no way, your people had a great life living under the progressive Ottoman Turks.

Armenians are going to respond: there was a systematic genocide of the Armenian population of Anatolia and Cilicia by the Turkish authorities during the First World War.

Turks are going to reply: there was a major war and many people died on both sides. Turks suffered just as much as Armenians. So please, lets move ahead in our lives, besides which, that was so long ago.

Armenians are going to tell you: no, no, no. You are not being fair or honest, a lot more Armenians died. It was absolutely horrible what happened to the Armenians, my grandparents still talk about it to this day.

Turks are going to reply: if Turks overreacted at the time, it is because you Armenians were helping the Russians and stabbing us, benevolent Turks, in the back.

Armenians are going to reply: not all Armenians were helping the Russians, only a few revolutionaries who were justifiably seeking independence. Why did Turks kill or deport the entire Armenian population of Anatolia and Cilicia?

Turks are going to say: well, you know what, I was not there. I don’t know what exactly happened. In any case, please allow me to say - I am very sorry that all that stuff happened to you people. I am really, really sorry, but we Turks are different now. Times are different now, let move ahead in our lives, it will benefit us all.

Armenians are going to tell you: yes, lets move ahead, but, it is essential that your government officially apologizes and begins to implement friendly policies toward the Armenian nation. Also, why is your government openly helping the Azeris against us? That problem should have nothing to do with our relations with Turkey.

Turks are going to reply: As far as the Nagorno Karabagh issue is concerned, we support the territorial integrity of all nations. Clearly, Armenian are the aggressors there. However, I do not want to talk about that problem. Lets get back to our issue. Turks will not officially apologize because they are afraid of land and money compensations. You have to understand that Turkey is not a rich nation.

At this point, some Armenian low-lives are going to reply: ok, but please, even if its some kind of a token recognition and compensation, it needs to be made in order to appease the masses.

And at this point, you Turks will get encouraged by the Armenian response and say: my government has similar problem with the Kurds and the Greek, thus, no such compensation can be acceptable for us Turks. Please people, accept our apologies and lets move a head in life, we don't have another choice.

The Armenian low-lives are going to say: well, ok, as long as we can be "good neighbors" and have no more problems, we will accept your apology and we'll live happily ever after.

And at this point, Armenians like me are going to tell Turks: go to hell, you and your Azeri brothers, we will not rest until your nation is destroyed. After what happened between our nations, Turks and Armenians can never live side by side. Nevertheless, Armenians and Turks never have and never will live side by side with Turks. What's more, as long as the Turkish government holds our sacred lands, as long as the Turkish government supports our enemies, as long as the blood of our ancestors are not avenged somehow -- there cannot even be any discussions regarding 'coexistence' between Turks and Armenians.

Thus, in final analysis: sooner or later, the crimes of the Turkish nation against the Armenian people will get punished. Just in case that the Turks within this forum, or any other Armenian forum, are hopeful that they will succeed in fooling certain self-hating Armenian 'whores' into thinking that the modern Turk is progressive and western oriented, they should realize that it is Armenians who portray the attitude that 'I' have conveyed are the ones who essentially make political policy and implement them - not the Sultan's lapdogs. With the above posted 'dialogue,' that which I have prepared for your intellectual enjoyment as well, I have saved all you people, Armenians and Turks, a lot of time and precious brain cells - now stop discussing this issue and go away.

Despite the aforementioned futility in dealing with such types of Turks, we have f***ing morons within the Armenian community that entertain them: these Armenians are the sad off-springs of cowards, peasants and borniks. I have even heard absurd talk by these so-called Armenians about the "closeness" of Armenian and Turkic cultures and centuries of the "happy-go-lucky" existence of us Armenians within the Ottoman Empire. I mean how stupid, how idiotic! The centuries of Turkic rule reduced Asia Minor, the epicenter of western civilization and Christendom, into and bloody Turkic/Islamic cesspool. And "that" is supposed to be our centuries of "happy" coexistence with Turks?!?!?! Nevertheless, even after centuries of Turkic rule, we Armenians are still "vastly" different from the Turk - culturally, socially and ethically. Anyone that claims otherwise is either a certified idiot or a registered bornik.

As a concerned Armenian: I do not want the government of Turkey to "ever" recognize the Armenian genocide. If it does so, I am confident that the entire Armenian population of the Diaspora will disappear into the pages of history within two or three generations. Unfortunately, for most of our brethren the "Hai Dat" is the only "psychological anchor" they have that maintains their Armenian identity. Moreover, I do not want the Turkish government to "ever" end its trade embargo against the Republic of Armenia. the Republic of Armenia needs to desperately emphasize trade and cooperation with Iran and Russia - not Turkey. Besides which, we Armenians really don't need the garbage produced within Turkey for the betterment of Armenia's economy. All sane economists within Armenia understand this. Opening Armenia's borders with Turkey can only benefit the Turkish nation and a few borniks within Armenia economically, and Washington and Tel Aviv, antagonists of Yerevan, strategically. Furthermore, I want the Turkish government to continue supporting Anti-Armenian terrorist nations such as Azerbaijan, Israel, Georgia and Chechnya - this is the only way to convince all Armenians that our nation's best interests are served by our nation's alliances with the Russian Federation and the Islmic Republic of Iran.

There needs to be absolutely no talk about "coexistence" and/or "reconciliation" with Turks - it is absurd: besides the obvious fact that Turkey, unlike Armenia, is a relatively primitive nation with an Islamic Turkic heritage and a bloody past, Turkey has serious geo-political problems with virtually everyone of it's neighbors. Turkey has serious territorial disputes with Armenians, Greeks, Cypriots, Iraqis, Iranians and Syrians. Most importantly, however, is the fact that the Turkish state has a very terminal "internal" problem with its Kurdish population that, in essence, is a cancer that will eventually destroy it. Besides which, Armenians and Turks are drastically different - socially, culturally, morally and genetically. Besides which, there can be no talk of our coexistence with Turks as long as our sacred lands are occupied by barbarians. There can be no talk of coexistence as long as the blood of our countless forefathers have not been avenged.

The Turkish nation needs to meet the following pre-requisites, criteria if you will, if they want to enter the ranks of civilized nations and expect us Armenians to treat them accordingly:

1) accept Christ as their lord and Savior and become a Orthodox Christian?
2) abandon their ugly language and learn how to speak Greek and/or Armenian?
3) denounce their primitive Turkic heritage and its bloody past?
4) understand why Armenians and Greeks wanted their independence from their kind?
5) stop being proud of a bunch of terrorist criminals they call "Gray Wolves"?
6) stop preaching fairytales about Turkish and Turkic ancestry?
7) stop supporting terrorist nations like Israel, Chechnya and Azerbaijan?
8) accept that they and their kin are 'temporarily' living on non-Turkic lands?

Edited by Armenian Highlander, 08 September 2004 - 06:45 PM.

[gurgen]

And at this point, Armenians like me are going to tell Turks: go to hell, you and your Azeri brothers, we will not rest until your nation is destroyed. After what happened between our nations, Turks and Armenians have never lived side by side and will never live side by side with Turks. What's more, as long as the Turkish government holds our sacred lands, as long as the Turkish government supports our enemies, as long as the blood of our ancestors are not avenged somehow -- there cannot even be any discussions regarding 'coexistence' between Turks and Armenians.

You talk the talk. But what I wonder is why you and other so-called 'nationalists' don't do anything you say.

You want to destroy the Turks, go raise an army and do it, why are you sitting here talking about it? I'd gladly join you, and many others with me, if you would actually take some kind of action, instead you come to a forum and whine about how Armenians should act and what a good Armenian you are. An Armenian who knows the worth of his people doesn't have to tell himself every 5 minutes that we are the master race and the best people that ever lived. It's called insecurity.

[DominO]

1) accept Christ as their lord and Savior and become a Orthodox Christian?
2) abandon their ugly language and learn how to speak Greek and/or Armenian?
3) denounce their primitive Turkic heritage and its bloody past?
4) understand why Armenians and Greeks wanted their independence from their kind?
5) stop being proud of a bunch of terrorist criminals they call "Gray Wolves"?
6) stop preaching fairytales about Turkish and Turkic ancestry?
7) stop supporting terrorist nations like Israel, Chechnya and Azerbaijan?
8) accept that they and their kin are 'temporarily' living on non-Turkic lands?

This must be a joke. Right?

[Teutonic Knight]

This must be a joke. Right?

Why?
Most of them are Armenian or Greek anyway, descendants of Byzantines. Others are Slavic, Romanian, Celtic, Germanic etc. with a dose of Arabs, Caucasians and Kurds.
There are virtually no turks or turanids in Turkey.

[bellthecat]

You talk the talk.

It's more like just talk, talk, talk, talk. Makes me wanna

[Armenian Highlander]

Gurgen:

Don’t worry about what I, or people like myself do. Just do what YOU have to do. Nevertheless, realize that not every person on earth was meant to carry a gun. Thus, don’t worry about joining any militia to "free" our lands. The Armenian nation today desperately needs "Armeno-centric" politicians, intellectuals, businessmen, scientists, artists and soldiers. Just support our homeland and remain involved politically and culturally, the rest, like Turkey crumbling apart, will just fall into place eventually.

Don’t forget that there were Armenians who expressed a deep sense of helplessness and cowardice when the conflict first broke out between Armenians and Azeris. I remember it vividly to this day how "patriotic Armenian" within the Diaspora thought it was crazy to sacrifice a single Armenian life in Karabagh - because Azerbaijan was a much large nation with vast resources within which it could use to crush Armenians. I remain thankful to God that our brethren within Nagorno Karabagh did not portray such self-defeating ideology and paranoia. In short: just do what your capabilities can allow, don't worry about others.

Regarding your semi-insulting comment "An Armenian who knows the worth of his people doesn't have to tell himself every 5 minutes that we are the master race and the best people that ever lived:" I am not preaching to myself, I am trying to expose pathetic low-lives found throughout the Armenian community to a healthy dose of Armeno-centric ideology, based upon academic research. Instead of picking a rhetorical fight with me - join me. The Armenian Diaspora is degenerating into a cesspool - don't you see it? If you don't see it, then there is not point in continuing our conversation.

Bellthepussycat:

I know now that we are supposed to like you for certain reasons. Nevertheless, do you have any intelligent comments to make or are you just a silly person by nature?

Herr Teutonic Knight:

Don't forget, regardless of certain issues between you and I, there is a lot we can agree on.

[gurgen]

If you truly want to make a difference, try changing your tone.
Your words are wasted before they are spoken if you call others 'pathetic low-lives'.
I for one wouldn't listen to or be convinced by someone who started with insulting me first.

Just a suggestion.

[Ludwig9]

To my speculation, it is consensus that most Armenians of the Diaspora need the Genocide in order to have a sense of identity. And anything which attacks that sense of identity needs be belittled and ridiculed, because of the mind set of being victims of Genocide. I agree with AH, we need to have a more ethno-centric perspective. No one in the world (besides some Armenians) cares if Armenia as a country exists or not. Armenians have there own history, language and religion, and it is within our best interest to conserve our heritage.

Edited by Ludwig9, 07 September 2004 - 12:58 PM.

[bellthecat]

Bellthepussycat:

I know now that we are supposed to like you for certain reasons. Nevertheless, do you have any intelligent comments to make or are you just a silly person by nature?

You are not supposed to like me. That's up to you.

And, though I take your point about not replying at length, I'm afraid anything with the phrase "Indo-European" in it now does sends me immediately to , as do lists of "commandments" (And a few other things as well like all sports, cars, trick questions and logic problems, etc).

[Armenian Highlander]

Gurgen:

Is is funny how you took "pathetic low-lives" personally. I hope it does not apply to you. Those who have a problem with my "ideology" need not converse with me. I am looking for quality over quantity. In final analysis: my insults are directed against those who act like pathetic low lives.

Ludwig9:

You summed it up pretty well.

Bellthepussycat:

If you are NOT interested in a certain topic, why stick your nose into it and ruin it for those who ARE interested. You do not make any sense. I am still waiting for you to say something smart.

[ED]

Since you have the arrogance to go this far, why not tell us who are the real so called low life’s here

[Sasun]

Armenian Highlander, looks like you are all set to go to Turkey and start preaching. Turks have been waiting for you in their prayers for centuries

[Ludwig9]

Since you have the arrogance to go this far, why not tell us who are the real so called low life’s here 

I don't think AH means anyone in particular. He is not making a blanket personal accusation. He is stating that people like these " low lifes " he describes exsist and we need to be aware of these type of people undermining our history, religion and polictics.

[Vigil]

You talk the talk. But what I wonder is why you and other so-called 'nationalists' don't do anything you say.

Gurgen, no one here stated that they are "nationalists" out to rid the world of the Turk, but most Armenians are VERY passive and DEEM what the Turks stole from them as nothing more as a "natural process". They have not self-respect and self-worth, which is why Armenians as a people are failures.

Again, just take a look at this thread. AH, came here to "rally the troops", but yet most of the "troops" have lost any will to reclaim what is rightfully theirs. Now, if you are going to reply with asinine comments like "well, we do don't need this" I would like to remind that it was only ten years ago that your so-called "reconciled" Turkish buddies tried to bridge the gap between Nakhajavan and Azerbaijan, so, the very same "nationalists" that you try to ridicule are the only ones that have the foresight to actually see what we as a people will face.

Furthermore, the fact that Turks have a blockade placed on Armenia does not make the sitaution better and in fact goes to show that either Armenians will go extinct or they will again have to fight for their statehood. As long as Turks or anyone that glorifies the Pan-Turkish ideology exist Armenians will always face a constant threat.

Now, I am pretty sure this stuff does not register, so, I will stop here.

This must be a joke. Right?

You must be a joke, right? (laugh)

Domino, you know what is a joke? The fact that Azerbaijan and Turkey directly block any progress that Armenia will attain, but yet you as a Armenian still are envisioning "world peace". A Azeri Officer butchering a Armenian officer in cold blood and no international press or warning being issued is a joke not what AH has to say.

ARMENIANS ARE REALLY GULLIBLE AND STUPID IF THEY ACTUALLY THINK THEY CAN "CO-EXIST" WITH TURKS! The fact that even today they are undermining what ever we want to acheive as a people should speak volumes as to how ridiculous it is to actually think there can be "reconciliation".

Since you have the arrogance to go this far, why not tell us who are the real so called low life’s here 

Edward, why shouldn't AH mistrust the moderators and the "hippie" branch of this forum? From the first day you have critisized his patriotism or tried to "label it" with negative co-notations. If anyone should be critisized its Bellthecat, Stormig, and the rest of the hippie opposition. Shit, just look what you have made me go through.

It is like you want Armenians to be this loser group of people with no nationalistic spirit. Hell, if you really disagree with AH why the *** don't you just live underneath the jurisdiciton of Turks? I mean they are supposidly civil, right? Right, so why don't you put your money where your mouth is and next time walk up to a Turk and tell them that everything they have done is "forgiven"? Please, you people talk about "forgivness", but yet at the very end the Turk is the one living off your forefathers land, stealing your history, and laughing at the gullibliness of Armenians like you. Sorry, but if I am going to be a "loser" at least let it be on my terms because at least then I will have some self respect.

Armenian Highlander, looks like you are all set to go to Turkey and start preaching. Turks have been waiting for you in their prayers for centuries 

No, Sasun, Turks have been just buying time waiting for the Hippie Armenians to "forgive" them at the expense of Armenians. Do not reverse the tables on individuals that still feel like they have some self respect and worth.

AH, do not even try to reason with these people. They are worse then Turks and a catalyst for assimilation. IF Armenians want to put their future in the hands of this kind of "open minded" leadership then Armenians will always get the short end of the stick.

Why?
Most of them are Armenian or Greek anyway, descendants of Byzantines. Others are Slavic, Romanian, Celtic, Germanic etc. with a dose of Arabs, Caucasians and Kurds.
There are virtually no turks or turanids in Turkey.

Tk, let us not offend Turks I mean they do not deserve it, after all, all Turks have done is annex our ancestral land, drive us out, and deny this ever took place, so, we have no right to "claim" what is actually ours. Hell, from now on we should just accept Ataturk's Sun Theory since we will never get back what is rightfully ours.

But on a serious note, yes Tk, there really is nothing Turkish in Turkey, white at the same time there really are no Armenians left in the world because Armenians originated from what is now Turkey.

I am not even a hardcore nationalist and I find the way you attack and ridicule the very same Armenians that are out to help you very disturbing. This is exactly why through out time those Armenians that actually gave a dam got screwed for the ones that were hippies (I.E. Monte Melkonyan).

Anyways, why bother, most of you will just write this off as another attack by a Dashnak terrorist or somthing. Like I say nationalism is what progesses a nation and any push to destroy the nationalistic spirit is the equavalent of suicide.

[Sasun]

Vigil, who is a hippie? Stop name calling, can't you understand this? Here in this forum we have rules of peaceful coexistance, if you and AH find it "unpatriotic" or anti-Armenian then consider giving sermons to more "patriotic" forums.

I personally don't share your views or the views of Armenian Highlander. I regard them unreasonable, boring rheotoric, nothing more than that. Most people don't take such rhetoric seriously, so learn to live with that calmly, without calling names to your opponents.

[Vigil]

Vigil, who is a hippie? Stop name calling, can't you understand this? Here in this forum we have rules of peaceful coexistance, if you and AH find it "unpatriotic" or anti-Armenian then consider giving sermons to more "patriotic" forums.

I personally don't share your views or the views of Armenian Highlander. I regard them unreasonable, boring rheotoric, nothing more than that. Most people don't take such rhetoric seriously, so learn to live with that calmly, without calling names to your opponents.

Yeah, when ever the argument ends up in your side you start banning people, editing threads, or issuing warnings. I am sick of this double standared. Bellthecat was the first person to attack AH when all he did was give his version of our origins. Instead, of you looking at the picture from the point of view of who is at fault you quickly attack the victim who only responded because he was being attacked. If this is not a double standard then I must be blind.

Anyways, why bother, you will most likly edit my post or ban me, peace.

---
Post edited for inappropriate language by Sip.

Edited by Seapahn, 07 September 2004 - 05:59 PM.

[Sasun]

Yeah, when ever the argument ends up in your side you start banning people, editing threads, or issuing warnings.

Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me

---
Quote edited by Sip.

Edited by Seapahn, 07 September 2004 - 06:00 PM.

[Ludwig9]

Vigil I think most people who are posting in this thread are from democratic countries and are having opinions based on what they think is right. The suffering of our Saints and martyrs is basically non-exsistent to these people.

If toleration is being preached here from other members then, these members should tolerate what you, AH and myself are stating as well.

Vigil, who is a hippie? Stop name calling, can't you understand this? Here in this forum we have rules of peaceful coexistance, if you and AH find it "unpatriotic" or anti-Armenian then consider giving sermons to more "patriotic" forums.

I personally don't share your views or the views of Armenian Highlander. I regard them unreasonable, boring rheotoric, nothing more than that. Most people don't take such rhetoric seriously, so learn to live with that calmly, without calling names to your opponents.

This is getting to be nonsense,

Its unreasonable to get the land that rightfully belongs to the Armenians ? Considering they actually own the land. Its unreasonable for the Armenians to retribution for the lost lives ? Its ok for the Turks to lie about their history? Sasun you thinks the demands made are unreasonable? How can you make such a statements and expect to co-exsist peacefully?

Edited by Ludwig9, 07 September 2004 - 06:03 PM.

[Sasun]

If toleration is being preached here from other members then, these members should tolerate what you, AH and myself are stating as well.

Toleration does not mean I have to agree with what seems to me a meaningless rheotoric. But that's not the point, the point is these people like to call names or talk down to others as if they are the patriots and the rest are not. That is not true at all. Patriotism and extremism are very different things, if we were to follow their brand of patriotism there would be no Armenians left.

Its unreasonable to get the land that rightfully belongs to the Armenians ? Considering they actually own the land. Its unreasonable for the Armenians to retribution for the lost lives ? Its ok for the Turks to lie about their history? Sasun you thinks the demands made are unreasonable? How can you make such a statements and expect to co-exsist peacefully?

Well, among other unreasonable things, I find the following very unreasonable and highly unreal:

The Turkish nation needs to meet the following pre-requisites, criteria if you will, if they want to enter the ranks of civilized nations and expect us Armenians to treat them accordingly:

1) accept Christ as their lord and Savior and become a Orthodox Christian?
2) abandon their ugly language and learn how to speak Greek and/or Armenian?
3) denounce their primitive Turkic heritage and its bloody past?
4) understand why Armenians and Greeks wanted their independence from their kind?
5) stop being proud of a bunch of terrorist criminals they call "Gray Wolves"?
6) stop preaching fairytales about Turkish and Turkic ancestry?
7) stop supporting terrorist nations like Israel, Chechnya and Azerbaijan?
8) accept that they and their kin are 'temporarily' living on non-Turkic lands?

What reasonable man will expect these to happen in real life??? I am not saying that we should not have any demands from Turkey. But this is quite and odd list of demands: a certain AH has made up a personal wish list and expects every Armenian to adopt it. If we don't adopt then we will be branded unpatriotic, unnationalistic, or whatever ...

Edited by Sasun, 07 September 2004 - 06:13 PM.

[Sasun]

1) accept Christ as their lord and Savior and become a Orthodox Christian?
2) abandon their ugly language and learn how to speak Greek and/or Armenian?

I am just puzzled, how could anyone stand up and publicly demand such things? AH, are you sure it is any of your business to change and entire country's religion and language ??? What if they choose to become Catholics, would that be enough to please you or they have no other choices, they must necessarily become Orthodox? And are you going to teach them Armenian or Greek? Should they be forever thankful to you that you have finally given them so much wisdom? (who in their right mind would think of speaking Turkish!!! )