16 replies to this topic

[H D]

That is the thesis of the book The Solution to the Hittite Question by Peter Jensen in 1893. Jensen proposed that Armenian is the closest language to the Hittite language, and Armenians themselves a remnant of Hittites. It has been dismissed by many in recent years, but his work rests on some solid foundations, such that I have read other scholars write that his thesis is not so easily dismissed.

http://books.google....id=4UsjSQAACAAJ

The book has long been out of print, but also out of copyright, so it should be freely available. Considering how important its thesis is, if anyone can help me find it and put it up, it would be a great service to researchers.

[Zartonk]

Despite Austin's elaboration of Jensen's proposal, a direct linguistic correlation between Armenian and Nesite remains problematic. We must keep in mind that the key issue is the assumption of a unified Hittite ethnicity in the first place, not to mention the context in which Hittitology began. There seems to be more ground for identifying the various non-Nesite Neo-Hittite (alternatively referred to as Syrio-Hittie) states as the earliest Proto-Armenian-speaking political entities. Indeed, the Cambridge Ancient Histories convincingly reinforces this possibility. Note that I only emphasize language because the cultural continuity of the Armenians as the anthropological autocthons of the region is beyond question.

Edited by Zartonk, 29 January 2013 - 09:02 PM.

[Zartonk]

Full text of Hittiter und Armenier by Jensen, 1898, in German:

http://archive.org/d...rundarmen00jens

Edited by Zartonk, 29 January 2013 - 09:15 PM.

[H D]

Hmm, my German doesn't extend very far beyond "die alte haus", "die auto ist gelb" and a couple dozen lines from German opera and Nietzsche. I assume there's no translation into English. If you can Zartonk, can you indicate some of the pertinent pages, which I may be able to slog through with my "die alte haus" and a German to English dictionary?

Also, in what work does Austin elaborate on Jensen's thesis?

[Zartonk]

I have run Jensen's monograph through Google Translate. Of course the "Machinenglish" is awkward to read, but it gives a fair idea of Jensen's conviction:

 Hittite and Armenian.pdf   2.67MB   5 downloads


Is Armenian an Anatolian Language?

William M. Austin
Language
Vol. 18, No. 1 (Jan. - Mar., 1942), pp. 22-25
Published by: Linguistic Society of America

Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/409074


Here is the article:

 Is Armenian an Anatolian Language.pdf   546.38KB   2 downloads


Following Austin, American linguist Edgar H, Sturtevant furthered the notion of the Armenian as a heavily transformed variety of the Hittite language in his seminal Indo-Hittite laryngeals, which laid the theoretical foundation for identifying the Anatolian languages as a sister group to rather than a daughter branch of the Proto-Indo-European mother tongue.

Indo-Hittite laryngeals, Google Books snippet preview

Edited by Zartonk, 30 January 2013 - 01:59 PM.

[H D]

This is excellent. Thank you.

[Zartonk]

This is excellent. Thank you.

My pleasure. I'm glad to see interest in this crucial and understudied area.

[hagopn]

I hadn't seen this thread.  Fantastic.  Thank you. 

[hagopn]

Is the following from Austin's book still a valid assumption?  "Hay", a derivative of "Hatti" original was a Hurrian term that meant Silver?  Why don't we reverse engineer this and assume that it was an Armenian loan to Hurrian, and it meant moonlight, which was associated with silver (even in Armenian lore and ritual) ?   There is a ritual among pre-Christian Armenians recalled by M. Abeghian that is described as thus (I'm paraphrasing badly, since I unfrrtunately do not own Abeghian's book):

 

"When the child is born and reaches its 40th day or a full moon after the 40th day has reached, the father holds the child over the altar (not clear which altar for which deity) under the Full Moon, the Silver Disk, and the father (of the child) recites the following..." something about "I now give the child to the Silver Moon with the hope for long life and swift death" and vice versa from the mother's side. 

 

The lunar cycle, the quantity of silver associated with the various phases of the cycle, the amount of "personal fortune" foretold to bless a given family, etc.  Much ado about Silver and Moon.

 

 

Arm. Hay (pl. Hayk') 'Armenian' is the form that atti (ta-at-ti), the ancient
designation of the Hittite land, would take as a result of Armenian phonetic
laws.2 To be sure, the word is a loan in Hittite, perhaps from Hurrian; its
original meaning was 'silver', as we learn from the half ideographic writing
U"UKUBABBAR-ti = "'"Uatti. Our present suggestion is simply that it became
an ethnic term and as such has remained in use until the present day.

Edited by hagopn, 22 September 2013 - 10:00 PM.

[hagopn]

Not to mention that "Aya" was a moon goddess in Sumerian myth, very rarely mentioned, or, rather, Aya is mentioned in Sumerian myth as the "Consort to Utu" (the sumerian Solar Disk/God), which in later Babylonian myth kept her place, still named Aya, as the consort for Shamash.

 

Not a far fetched move from Aya to Hay, even for a linguist--

 

Ah, edit, to add also that the Avesta recalls that "Tara-u" (Tarkhu in Assyrian records, Torgom or Torg in Khorenatsi's History) who was the "idolatrous" antagonist to the teachings of Zoroaster and his sponsor king Koshtasp (or Vishtasp, but, as I have written before, the Koshtasp form is corroborated by an 740 b.c. Assyrian tablet) of Kummukhi (more than likely Kamakh, Commagene, again).  Tarkhu's people are called the Hayauni in the 5 Gasas/Gathas.  Haya-uni, Hayeaoni, whatever assumed form one chooses to interpret it as, it is clear Hay.

Edited by hagopn, 22 September 2013 - 10:11 PM.

[Arpa]

Not to mention that "Aya" was a moon goddess in Sumerian myth, very rarely mentioned, or, rather, Aya is mentioned in Sumerian myth as the "Consort to Utu" (the sumerian Solar Disk/God), which in later Babylonian myth kept her place, still named Aya, as the consort for Shamash..

 

 

Not a far fetched move from Aya to Hay, even for a linguist--

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, shamash as in the Arabo- Aramaic Shams

Also to remember that in another non-language  ay means moon as well as month

[hagopn]

Despite Austin's elaboration of Jensen's proposal, a direct linguistic correlation between Armenian and Nesite remains problematic. We must keep in mind that the key issue is the assumption of a unified Hittite ethnicity in the first place, not to mention the context in which Hittitology began. There seems to be more ground for identifying the various non-Nesite Neo-Hittite (alternatively referred to as Syrio-Hittie) states as the earliest Proto-Armenian-speaking political entities. Indeed, the Cambridge Ancient Histories convincingly reinforces this possibility. Note that I only emphasize language because the cultural continuity of the Armenians as the anthropological autocthons of the region is beyond question.

 

I have read the Armenian translation done of Jensen's work, and I don't recollect Jensen's theory to include Nessite or Syrio-Hittite.  Nessite is really Luwian, and culturally the Luwians were already a product of the Eblaite trend of hybridization of the what is referred to as Amoritic and the nothern, more than likely the proto-IE "Anatolian" cultures, of which Armenians have always been the remnants and a part.  Ebla is a strong indicator as to what sort of cultural intermingling and linguistic changes that could have occurred, and Syrio-Hittite/Luwian truly corroborates this.  The Luwian religion was already a reflection of this, which in turn had tremendous influence on religions of the greater Canaan, from Ugarit all the way to Gaza.  Autochthonous in terms of simply cultural continuity is only partly true.  I think the language has stayed, largely unchanged when considering the remarkably long period and amount of changes in the political map.  

 

Then again, one has the luxury of great research in a good enough parallel to Armenians/Anatolians, the Celts, and the theories proposed by Jean Markale.  It's always worth mentioning the agility and adaptability of the mobile, confederate, extremely pagan and warlike Celts and the strong parallels to Armenian political, cultural, and religious characteristics such as the strong and fiercely autonomous tribalism checked by the simultaneous adherence to common religious sanctuaries and cementing syncretism.  A similar set of characteristics were shared by the early Greeks, with the Spartans as the main holdouts in favor of Iron Age virtues of, probably yes, their ancestors in Asia Minor; i.e. Hellas was really a union under the Delphian flag, just as the Celts under the Druidic flag, as the Armenians were under common deities of Anahit, Vahagn, and etc in their various syncretic forms and nomenclature.

[hagopn]

What I'm driving at is that the Armenian identity always encompassed many states with often extremely divergent philosophies, some quite barbaric, but all recalled a common ancestry and common set of myths.  The gamut of cultures southward indicates still a strong Armenian ("Anatolian" for those who still insist) undercurrent all the way down to Sumer as far back as the 4th milllennium.  Nessite is merely a transition state from the older Armenian ("Anatolian" to those who still insist) layer and the incoming Amoritic ("Semitic" to those that still insist.)  The very word for farm and agriculture is still something Armenian and Sumerian share, and yet there is no serious work done to even attempt to find a correlation, a link.  The Armenian presence and its linguistic and cultural continuity and vastness in ancient times is not appreciated and is often a notion that is ridiculed due to biases. 

 

Still, I am surprised at the amount of non-professional work that still sees something there that still has value in pointing out the fallacies of what academia has been doing with Armenians and the ancient Fertile Crescent and Asia Minor.

[hagopn]

I'm reading on Kumukhi/Kamakh/Commagene as the possible exception, a state that was a long time holdout from "Greater Armenia" which is really a Polish style 'electorate" of "Equals among Many" monarchy with a full blown Bagratuni "tagadir" or "crowning" or "coronation" dynasty.  I don't know if there is a non-Armenian equivalent to a designated "coronation dynasty" such as the Bagratuni.

 

Recall also that A.d. Mordtmann's reading of the name "Sarduri" was "Bagrituni".  And, more interestingly, the reading of the logographic "khinili" suffix was read by Mordtmann as "agan" or "akan".  For example, the "Argishtikhinili" fortress was read by Mordtmann as "Argishtakan"!

 

Who knows how many such "rereadings" and re-decipherments of Hittite et al there are.  For example, a cursory examination of the U of Chicago's dictionary shows that there is a definite (almost to the point of obvious irrationality) a "Semitic" bias (these people never referred to themselves, ever, as "Semites" as a scholarly reminder, but sometimes as "Amurru" which is possibly a Sumerian term [up for debate to this day, which i understandable considering the period in history being dealt with] which means "From the West").  One obvious example of the bias is evident in the assumption that the Assyro-Akkadian phonetic must be applied to some generally used ideograms that denote a negative or positive suffix or prefix, such as "La" as a negative prefix.  Once one begins to reread with a different phonetic, i.e. a Armenian derivation such as "an" or "haka" and so on ("an" as a more likely IE candidate), you will see Armenian terms come to the fore. 

 

I wish I had that dictionary in hand.  If anyone is interested, I will get it from my friend who has been doing precisely this for the last 12 years. 

 

Friends, there is no doubt that Hittite/Hatti is Armenian.

Edited by hagopn, 03 October 2013 - 07:12 PM.

[hagopn]

just thinking out loud, which seems to be a very risky affair indeed in this hostile world.

[onjig]

I recently view an piece on Hittites. In this it was said that a certain man studied cuneiform, found a key word and soon even understood the phonetic and could read what was written on the clay tablets, pronounce the words. These tablets were said to be of the Hittites. 

This was on youtube, and was rather long. Describing close details of the lives of people and rulers in the Hittite culture. 

There was talk of what was before the Hittite and the many who followed, what they called them self, what others called them, on and on to the present day in and around the area in which the Hittite lived. We, the Armenians and Armenia was never mentioned. In all of this man's research he found or had mentioned to him, The Armenians. 

Maybe, this fellow conducted his research in a parallel universe and on his universe we never lived, loved, grew, carved, erected, danced, gave birth or drank oghi. 

[hagopn]

Do you remember the title of the video or the name of this person?