88 replies to this topic

[America-Hye]

These traditional theories are based on history, not science. DNA analysis is increasingly proving these theories wrong.

[KnightOfArmenia]

Races don't have specific DNA. Slanted eyes, body hair, skin tone; all of these come from a specific set of genes (maybe even one or two), not from the entire DNA. And since we are not yet sure which genes exactly cover this, to blindly say "DNA disproves blah blah" shows ignorance, America-Hye.

Oh, and Armenians are a mix, but all of the same stock. Before they were all united as a single people, the Armenians were very divided (think Greece in the ancient days; they were physically different, and each city-state was a country unto itself. The Urartians, as is being shown now, were just the largest of these tribes, and eventually were able to successfully conquer the rest; after several hundred years of unity, when the Urartians collapsed, the various tribes remained united (in culture; the strong individualism of the various tribes has remained, although most of the differences have vanished through intermarriage; some aspects still remained, like the tall Zeitountsis and Sasuntsis, or the light-eyed girls of Kars) and became Armenians, though still under different Nakharars.

Modern evidence is disproving the old theory that everyone came from Greece, since this is based on Greek reports that always claimed that they were the basis of the world. Now there is more proof that peoples living in the Caucasus moved west, and several centuries later moved back east.

Have you ever read the Greek reason of why we are called Armenians? They say because we are of the stock of Arminius of Thessaly, and are simply "wayward sons."

[America-Hye]

KOA,

You are misrepresenting the level of technical sophistication that DNA analysis has reached over the last few years. Yes, only a few genes determine outward appearance and findings have shown that an African tribe can be closer genetically to a Norse village than to the adjoining tribe. However, analysis of these genes can show from whence a select group has come, over the space of history. Yepiskoposyan's studies were quickly supressed by the ROA goverment. It is not politically feasible to discuss some of the findings given the present geo-political situation. Nation-building seems to be more critical than facing the truth. So the ROA government is guilty for factual manipulation, though they are no match for the Turkish government in this regard. The Turks make history that is patently untrue.

[KnightOfArmenia]

Actually, I'm not; the Human Genome Project is one of my passions. But the most they have been able to do is track the general migration of humanity; each migration is accurate to within 50,000 years. So out of Africa, to the Middle East, to the Caucasus and Asia and Europe, over the Bering Strait into America, etc. However, the mapped genome has not been studied and understood enough yet to be able to determine the migrations routes that have occurred in the past 5,000-7,000 years, which is the period in question. That is why history is the important factor here, not science; we can carbon-date things to see about how old they are, but we need history to know who built those items.

[America-Hye]

I do not have the time today to research the numerous studies of mitochondrial and y-chromosome DNA covering the period of the last 5,000-7,000 years, some of which discuss the Armenians. I will post them here when I have the time.

[gamavor]

Shalom Moshe, WE LOVE YOU!

[America-Hye]

If you KNEW from which city my Armenian antecendents emanted from you would understand that I am not the ONLY "Moshe" among us. Raised as a Christian, but a "Moshe" nonetheless. Statistically, WE Armenians may prove to be more similar to the original Moshes than the Khazar/Slavic/Ancient Moshe mix that the Jews are today. The tie may prove to be that we came from a common source or that a large part us us were converted Jews, in a series of conversions over many centuries.

[KnightOfArmenia]

Right. You go on being a converted Jew, since our culture is becoming accepted (in the European intelligentsia, at least) as an older one, since Armenian communities are being found that predate Jewish settlements by rather many centuries.

[gamavor]

No further questions Moshe. I will respect you more if you are truthful to your heritage rather than trying to "convert" us. If you want to be an Armenian let it be that way. You have been raised in an Armenian environment but you know nothing about Armenians.


PS: Don't worry I'm aware of the number of Moshes' among Armenians!

Edited by gamavor, 29 August 2003 - 05:44 PM.

[America-Hye]

KOA and Gamavor,

The portion of my family that were Jews have been Christian for 800 years and you still consider me a Jew?

[KnightOfArmenia]

You are the one who brought the subject up; if you did not (in some part) consider yourself to be a Jew, then you wouldn't have brought up the fact that it (supposedly) links you to other converted Jews. That simple.

[America-Hye]

Why should I not bring the subject up? I do not think of it as a taboo subject. If it makes you uneasy, you have the problem, not I.

[gamavor]

Hagarag, you don't understand. The chairwoman of the Jews in Armenia is Mrs. Rimma Hovsepyan. If you meet her on the street you would never tell weather she is a Jew or not, and since she lives in Armenia, she is more Armenian than me and you.

We Armenians know who WE are. It is people like you indoctrinated by foreign agencies to go around and trumped lies for very transparent reasons.

[Arpa]

I think her name is Varzhapetian. I met some Jews in Yerevan. It is mindboggling when they speak better Armenian than some of our Catholicoi. So doe the Kurds and Greeks of Yerevan. I met them too. I may relate that eerie experience some day.

[gamavor]

Yes, sorry Varzhapetian. I have deep respect to all minorities in Armenia. I think very few Armenians out of Armenia know about Russian Molokans.

[America-Hye]

Her name is Rima Feller Varzhapetyan. She is a Jew married to an Armenian and is head of the Jewish community in Armenia. I am an Amrican Armenian who has delved beneath the surface to understand my roots and to understand the underpinnings of Christianity. Those steeped in tradition have no use for the truth. They operate solely from what they have been indoctrinated with. I do not follow what I was indoctrinated with in semi-rural community of the USA. I am a citizen of the world.

[gamavor]

God Bless You!

[America-Hye]

I have also studied the Molakans of Armenia in a graduate school history class years ago, but since thirty years have passed I do not remember the specifics about them except that they were Russians who escaped to Armenia or were banished there for their religious beliefs.

Gamavor, I am not the enemy. Please believe that.

[gamavor]

I have never said that you are enemy. I said that your "liberal" historical interpretations are outright lies. If there is no other alter motive, than it is your EGO and I don't like that.

[America-Hye]

How can you state that there is any ego involved when I am totally anonymous? What I am trying to do is to get you and some of the others here to think out of "your box." You are SO predictable, with your Armenian GROUPTHINK!!