62 replies to this topic

[Boghos]

Posted Monday, Jul. 23, 1934
Tense on the centre aisle of Manhattan's small Holy Cross Armenian Apostolic Church last Christmas Eve sat a little band of men who were not there to worship God and His Son to be born on the morrow. Brilliant in churchly regalia, a solemn procession moved up the aisle toward the candle-decked altar. When Archbishop Leon Tourian, tall, grey-bearded primate of his Church in America, drew abreast of them, the men did what they had come for. A double-edged butcher knife flashed once, vanished in the Archbishop's abdomen. (TIME, Jan. 1).

In Manhattan last month began the trial of nine Armenians charged with the Archbishop's murder. All of the defendants admitted that they were members of Tashnag, ultra-nationalist Armenian society which wants to throw off Soviet rule, re-establish the independent Armenian Republic which existed for four months in 1920 after the treaty of Sèvres had freed the land from Turkish tyranny. Witnesses testified that the pro-Soviet Archbishop was as good as dead when, on Armenian Day at Chicago's Century of Progress last summer, he refused to speak until an Armenian Republic flag had been removed from the stand. Forty-two witnesses testified for the State, 33 for the defense. Scenes of the murder were re-enacted. A burly assistant district attorney marched in front of the jury box, waving a pencil as if it were a crucifix. One by one three flashing-eyed Armenian women attempted to tackle him in football style. Because the jury could not remember the defendants' names (Leylegian, Sarkisian, Yarganian, Mozian, Tchalitkian, Sarafian, Mirijanian, Zodigian, Andreassian) a cardboard sign behind them listed each by number.

As the jury finished its deliberations one day last week a special guard of detectives and policemen lined the courthouse corridors, expecting trouble between Tashnag and anti-Tashnag spectators. There was none. Found guilty of first-degree manslaughter were Defendants Nos. 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9. They faced prison sentences up to 20 years. Found guilty of first-degree murder with Death as the penalty were Defendant No. 1 who held the butcher knife, Defendant No. 2 who held the Archbishop.

[Boghos]

So, is more needed?

[Boghos]

Here: http://www.geocities...yc/alexdiss.pdf read pages 169-171

[karakash]

Good reading.

[Takoush]

Thank you for putting it out. Like I PM'd you I will read it later.

And frankly I wish they both finally come to an agreement together and unite our churches again; especially for the sake of our youth here in the Americas that are assimilating much.

[Boghos]

And people talk about unity when we are wasting resources on this Church stupidity.
I have friends that sponsored the construction of churches in Armenia, two different families, two different churches.Like Armenia has a shortage of them...Then the different churches, schools and clubs in many places, Montreal comes to mind fast.We need to stop joking if we want to get somewhere.

[Takoush]

And people talk about unity when we are wasting resources on this Church stupidity.
I have friends that sponsored the construction of churches in Armenia, two different families, two different churches.Like Armenia has a shortage of them...Then the different churches, schools and clubs in many places, Montreal comes to mind fast.We need to stop joking if we want to get somewhere.

I agree with you. That story about making two churches in the homeland also? when they have shortages of food and shelter and God knows what, it is so stupid and idiotic, I can't imagine. Frankly, I also wish very much that we were under one head church and united. As Arpa many times complained about this separation as well and in here.

We really are small in numbers and we cannot afford this separation any longer, especially if we want to think wisely for the sake of our upcoming youth.

[annannimusss]

I also hope the church will one day be united,but why didn't it happen with His Holiness Karekin the First's election.

[Dave]

I'm sure that both Churches support unity. However, if it were to be 1, which one would assume the leadership role? Both consider themselves legitimate. Logically, it should be the one in Echmiadzin, but I'm sure that there are many that think otherwise. Perhaps the one in Antelias should relocate to Armenia?

[Armenak]

I also hope the church will one day be united,but why didn't it happen with His Holiness Karekin the First's election.

The Cilicians were quick to elect Aram I and claim that Karekin I was never really Catholicos of all Armenians.

[Dave]

According to Wikipedia's list of Armenian Catholicoi of Cilicia, Karekin II was Catholicos from 1977-1995 in Lebanon, and he became the Catholicos of All Armenians from 1995 to 1999 (became Karekin I). At the same time, in 1995, they elected Aram I.

http://en.wikipedia....icoi_of_Armenia

[annannimusss]

Wow,that is pretty bad.Is it because they were scared that the Tashnag party will lose power by letting there be only one Catholicos.

[karakash]

Wow,that is pretty bad.Is it because they were scared that the Tashnag party will lose power by letting there be only one Catholicos.

I am going to reiterate what Aram I said in Detroit during the weekend of Dec 2-3 at the youth conference. He repeated what we have often heard - the church is one, we are talking about administrative unity. We all know this already. Not much else new was said during the Q&A period in Detroit. He did call it "abnormal" that we have two separate administrative units.

But the Great House of Cilicia was not created in 1933, nor was it created in 1956. I am certain that there are still think-headed and stubborn Armenians who know nothing about history and believe that Antelias was created in thin air by the Tashnags to take control of churches in the 1950s in the US. It has been around for hundreds of years. There should definitely be unity in the USA and Canada. Antelias should only have jurisdiction over Lebanon, Syria and a few other places. Everyone else belongs under Etchmiadzin. The people who control the Prelacy affiliated churches still will control them. They can still send financial support to Antelias as well. Antelias can still provide clergy to the US, just like Jerusalem does.

I remember in 1994-1995 Mesrob Ashjian made a speech about achieving unity in 1998 for the 100th anniversary of the Armenian Church in America. Both sides would have their respective assemblies in the same city in 1997 and then in 1998 there would only be one assembly with elections for Primate. This past year, the assemblies were both in NJ - Prelacy at St. Vartanantz and Diocese at St. Leon's. Some time after that, the sides broke off talks and the next thing I read was that the Diocese Unity Committee which had been around for decades suddently disbanded...

[Arpa]

I also hope the church will one day be united,but why didn't it happen with His Holiness Karekin the First's election.

You mean "united" based on the intransigence you and others here display?

We have been waiting so patiently for a final verdict.
Speaking of confusion.
"United"?
Under which "gavazan"?
Perhaps now, you can finally and authoritatively tell us which of the two churches (Catholicates) is the real genuine Apostolic and which the Impostolic. And whe n we settle that issue we can proceed with the "unity" gobbledigook.
And we expect us to subscribe to one or the other, not to mention gain converts from other faiths.
Would you reconvert and rejoin the church,any chuirch that does not even know who or what they are?One would rather join those idiotic Jewhovah's or the Morons. They at least speak out of one mouth, however stupid what they say may be.
You think the Hamshenites will reconvert to their one time faith and get embroiled in this stupid argument? They must be very smug in their adopted religion. In the least they have one mufti, and assuming they are Sunni, i.e. orthodox Muslim, one denomination and one “ Muslim catholicos”, or whatever the h… they call them.
One wishes we had half the brain of those “turds”.

[karakash]

Unification should be under Etchmiadzin. I don't think anyone would make the argument that we should be unified under Cilicia.

[Budrig]

[quote name='Arpa' date='Jun 29 2004, 04:18 PM' post='102892']

Hi Arpa, I can help answer some of your questions.

Your Question: Does anyone have access to Abp. Turian's complete bigraphy? He was born and raised in Scutari, Iskudar Turkey. I am not familar as to his comings and goings but I am familar with his up bringing.

You asked if Ghevond Tourian is of the same clas as to Bedros and Yeghishe Patriarch Tourian? The answer is that Bedros and Yeghishe were his uncles (not cousin as I have seen written). The Tourian family consisted of 3 brothers and one sister. (Bedros, Yeghishe and Uptamos, the I have forgotten the sisters name) Ghevond is the son of their Sister. Ghevond adopted the Tourian name, he was not born a Tourian. After his fathers death, his mother asked her Brother Yeghishe to help Ghevond enter priesthood. Ghevond was then able to create some influence for himself. He then Took the Tourian name before he became Archbishop.

In terms of a mindset, Ghevond was of a different mindset then of his Uncles when it comes to Armenia. I won't go into what I know on this subject but he was raised by his father who was not a Tourian hence his influences were very different.


You wrote: It is only fair that a family that had reared two saints also rear a satan to balance things out. Since in the Armenian tradition the family name is carried by the Father, Ghevond is not a Tourian but he is related to the Tourian family.

In case you were wondering, my information comes passed down thru the Tourian family.

[AntranigBey]

The worst part is that there are those from Beirut who still think of those terrorists as heroes.
There is no greater shame than how the Tashnags make themselves out to be better than everyone else by attacking Armenians...but to do this, or view these people as 'heroes' is inexcusable and makes the whole Tashnag organization look so bad. Add to it the narrow minded brainwashing of AYF (I say so not in attack but because I have to teach Armenian history to so many of these self professed experts) who go around with such arrogance.

The worst part: no other organization does as much as they do.

THis is our KISMET.

[gamavor]

Two simple questions? Since when Antranig became "bey"? Since when "kismet" is better word than "hajogh"?

[Arpa]

Two simple questions? Since when Antranig became "bey"? Since when "kismet" is better word than "hajogh"?

Well said Gamavor!
You mean "bey" as in bokh and kism*t as in kiss my v***k!

[Arpa]

One of many about the collaboration of Church/KGB … etc.
Speaking of which, let us revisit this thread about Abp. Tourian.
When will those KGB infested archives in Soviet Yerevan open? Not the least of which the demise of Bakunts, Paruyr Sevak, Gurgen Mahari and many others.
http://news.yahoo.co..._...p&printer=1
"Poland archbishop tied to secret police
By VANESSA GERA, Associated Press WriterFri Jan 5, 2:50 PM ET
Amid calls for him to step aside, Warsaw's incoming archbishop admitted Friday he had cooperated with the Communist-era secret police and said he was leaving his fate in the hands of Pope Benedict XVI.
Archbishop Stanislaw Wielgus, who is to have his installation ceremony Sunday, expressed regret for an act that he acknowledged "harmed the church."
He also said he has informed Benedict of this chapter in his life, which he said included a promise to collaborate but never resulted in informing on anyone.
"Before you today, I confess to the mistake committed by me years ago, just as I have confessed to the Holy Father," Wielgus said in an open letter to Poland's Roman Catholic clergy and believers.
However, he also said, "I never informed on anyone and never tried to hurt anyone."
The mounting allegations against Wielgus, first raised Dec. 20 by a Polish weekly, have gripped the heavily Roman Catholic country, where the church enjoys high esteem for its opposition to the former Communist government, and where people revere the late Polish-born Pope John Paul II — credited by some with hastening the regime's fall.
The scandal gained intensity after church officials said Friday that documents at a historical institute indicated Wielgus had willingly collaborated.
Newspapers Friday devoted their front pages to the revelations, even as Wielgus took canonical vows as required by church law ahead of his installation.
"Stop the installation," the daily Dziennik wrote in large bold print on its front page, arguing that to allow a "former agent" to hold a top church post would amount to a "moral scandal."
In an earlier statement Friday, Wielgus acknowledged that he did have contact with the secret service, but he said that documents indicating he collaborated were written by the secret police and reflected their account of events, not the truth.
The allegations first surfaced in the right-wing Gazeta Polska weekly, two weeks after the Vatican appointed him archbishop of Warsaw. Wielgus initially denied any collaboration.
Wielgus, who has been bishop of Plock since 1999, said he was leaving his fate in the hands of the pope: "With full humility, I declare to the Holy Father that I will submit to each of his decisions."
Wielgus broke days of silence after two commissions — one state, one church — concluded this week after studying the communist-era archives that he had collaborated with the secret police.
The church commission said Friday it found that "numerous, essential documents exist that confirm Rev. Stanislaw Wielgus' willingness for conscious and secret cooperation with the security organs of Communist Poland."
The statement added, however, that there is no clear proof that he "inflicted any harm on anyone."
The Vatican named Wielgus to replace Cardinal Jozef Glemp, who stepped down after more than 25 years as archbishop of Warsaw.
Wielgus is the latest in a series of church and public figures in Poland to face allegations of collaboration with the secret police before Communist rule ended in 1989.
In his statement, Wielgus acknowledged signing a declaration of cooperation in 1978 when seeking permission to travel to Munich, Germany, because he was threatened by "a very brutal" secret police agent.
"That was my moment of weakness," he wrote, insisting that he never actively cooperated with the secret police.
He also insisted that many facts about him in the documents are wrong, including that he spoke Spanish or had several publications abroad.
"The characterization of me in the secret police material differs so much from the truth, that I would not recognize myself on their basis if it were anonymous," he said.
During a visit to Warsaw in May 2006, Benedict cautioned against passing easy judgment on those who lived in different times — remarks that came in the wake of similar allegations against a Polish priest.
"We must guard against the arrogant claim of setting ourselves up to judge earlier generations who lived in different times and in different circumstances," Benedict told clergy, comments that met with applause.
Copyright © 2007 The Associated Press.."