Whose homeland is Armenia?

Some say Armenia is the homeland of all Armenians. Others say it is the homeland of the Armenians who live in Armenia. Some say they would like to live in Armenia. Others say they would like to be buried in Armenia.

I wonder how we see our relation to Armenia?

You have to separate the psychological from the physical. Armenia is of great symbolic value to all Armenians. Some sort of mythological land with "old churches and pretty landscapes" that stands as a testament to our race. Our Shangri-La.

As a actual, physical place to live, diasporans haven't got a clue what it is like. Those that say they want to move there like the idea of being immersed in all things Armenian. However, once the novelty of that wears off and they're faced with the real economics, sociology and politics of living in another country, their views will change.

Everyone wants to see the country strong and prosperous, I highly doubt many would ever move there. For those that do, it's very questionable as to whether or not they'd be happy.

Armenia is homeland of citizens of Republic of Armenia, whether they are Kurd, Yezdi or Russian. Citizens of Armenia are the ones who pay taxes, defend its borders or struggle to make a living in harsh economic conditions. People who live there and are not citizens are not obligated in any way to do anything for Armenia, except paying taxes. It’s my personal belief that only people who carry the burden of living there should have the right to call Armenia their country.

In this case homeland is a very general word. If someone was to specify "historical homeland", I would apply those words to anyone who feels Armenian, is patriotic and willing to help the Armenian nation.

The words of Alpha , reach my ear as a total insult to those of us , who , God knows why , consider this tiny little land as their 'heart' country.

If it all boils down to 'money and sence" , then probably he is right. But does it boil down to that?
If that is the case then let us close down sites like this in the Diaspora, let us close our schools, churches , 'agoumps' etc and lets forget all about the fuss , which incidentally brings us only trouble and extra burden in our lives!

I would like to borrow an expression from the Ecologists and say that "this land does not belong to you, you have simply borrowed it from the future generations...."

Alpha,

I think the citizenship is just a legal category. Also it is about the Republic of Armenia having responsibilities towards its citizens, and not necessarily the non-citizens not having responsibilities towards Armenia.

Mike, I think if the novelty wears off, but the economic conditions improve, and new economic incentives come into the play, many who perceive Armenia on a symbolic level may also perceive it on a material level.

The only reason for the absolute majority of the people leaving Armenia is their desire to meet the ends, or a bit more.

Alpha, I think calling Armenia their country is not a right, it is feeling, and nobody can deny one to have that feeling, because those who have that feeling don't and wouldn't ask for permission.

I also disagree with Btac. You don't help your nation. You may help somebody else' nation, but you serve your nation, and you feel it being a privilege.

I also agree with the logic of Raffi that if Armenia is not at least the emotional homeland of Diaspora, why to go through the hustle of the preservation of the language, try to raise the younger generations as Armenians, and so on, if on an individual level they would be much better off by completely assimilating with the host nation?

I do accept that Diasporan Armenian may also have similar devotion to their host homeland, and I think the opposite is immoral. But being devoted to both homelands don't contradict each other.

I have some Anglo friends, whose ancestors have come to America many generations ago, but they still raise their kids with warm feelings towards the "Old country."

Raffi,
I am extremely sorry if my post was insulted you. Please accept my apologies. Let me clarify my views, may be I will make more sense. Armenia is a real country, with real problems and real people. Everyday they wake up they struggle to make the ends meet. Many of them can immigrate, and it’s right many do, but a lot of them stay because they love their country and are ready to give up everything for it. It’s a continuous test for endurance and the most devoted ones stay (and the ones who don’t have the means to immigrate). It is not only ethnic Armenians, but also other minorities have a strong dedication to that small piece of land forgotten by God, which is called Republic of Armenia. If Diaspora Armenians feel attached to Armenia then they have the complete freedom to participate in nation building process, not just cheer up from aside. Yes, Raffi jan it all boils down to “money and sense”, because that’s what determines the lifestyle and subsequently the happiness of people. (the famous quote of Beatles, “money can’t buy you love” just popped up in my mind, but I think its too idealistic to think in those terms). I personally know a few people from New York/ New Jersey area that moved to Armenia, because they wanted their kids to grow up as Armenian in Armenia. These people gave up the comfortable life, for the sake of their country and their kids. Raffi jan it all boils down how much you can give up, in order to help build the country. The reason Diaspora is still active and was able to maintain various organizations, is because its unwillingness or inability to assimilate into mainstream. For some reason we tend to separate us from the rest, which is even apparent in some of the Armenian literature. (“Menk kich enk bayc mez hay en asum”). MJ, citizenship is a legal category, but that legal category determines where one is ready to serve the army, defend its borders and pay taxes. If love for Armenia means have a picture of Ararat in your living room, then love is cheap. I guess the way I define “love for Armenia” is actually contributing to nation building process, not just teaching how to do it.

Alpha,

But non-citizens also have served and may serve in the army right? Though it may require some special arrangements.

Armenia is where I come from. It's in me, but it is not me. It does not define me completely, nor do I define it to that extent. That is it something as abstract as "homeland" for me is pure coincidence. I could've been Ethiopian, for example. See my point? It's just a place, just a nation, just a culture. It's where I come from, part of who I am. That's where it ends. (for me at least)

[This message has been edited by Gayane (edited January 25, 2001).]

MJ, that’s why I am a staunch supporter of dual citizenship, so we can legalize diaspora’s contribution to nation-building process. You are right non-citizens have served in the army, but those were just volunteers, and nobody cared about legality of these illegal armed units. In a normal civilized world, one’s utmost love and dedication should be directed toward the country whose citizen one is.

Alpha,

I don't mind the dual-citizenship in my heart. I just think that it is a very difficult thing to do, and enforce the law for Armenia, under the circumstances of dual-citizenship.

As to the illegal military formations, I disagree with you that nobody has cared about their legality. Quite the opposite - it has been a primary concern. They have been disarmed, jailed, disbanded, absorbed in legal units.

I don't denounce, and moreover, I encourage one's dedication to his country of citizenship. But I also think that one may have big enough heart, to be dedicated also to his "Old country." I just don't see contradiction.

Legally speaking Alpha is right. Nations are no longer merely ethnic or tribal entities who share cultural or other similarities. Nation is rather political category that represents the connection between the individual and the respective state. In that sense, the concept of a nation becomes a synonym for citizenship. This concept is not something new. It was first promoted in France with the French Revolution.
In the old Roman Law there were two main principles applicable when determining someone’s belonging to certain nation; namely “the right of the blood” and “the right of the land/origin/birthplace.” To certain extend those principles are valid to present day and are common for almost all legal systems.
If we apply “the right of the land,” and if we give credit to some biblical accounts, it appears that actually all nations are Armenian. I do not want to go further with this type of reasoning because the outcome would be dreadful.
The question for dual citizenship was raised several years ago and I remember that the policy makers in Armenia were very reluctant to even discuss that matter given the political situation at that time. Obviously, being part of the Armenian political process while siting in your comfortable California style home is not a good perspective for the Armenian leadership and that is quite understandable. However, things have changed. There are more than a million Armenians from Armenia, living abroad who are Armenian citizens and who can partook in the election process.

Let me present you with an everyday comversation I have with people I encounter:

Q: What is your name?
A: Raffi A.
Q: Wow, that sounds strange, where are you
from?
A: I am Armenian
Q: Armenian ? So you are from Armenia
A: No , i was born in Lebanon but we are
Armenians.
Q: So one of your parents were from Armenia
A: No, but my grandparents were driven out
of their land by the Turks.
Q: Ow , yes, Turks and Armenians, poor
people.....

Well this discussion can go on for long. However my point is to show you that those of us who still want to be Armenian and not Greeks, Lebanese, French , we have to go through many painstaking explanations. Most of our choices regarding our Armenianess , goes through the process of persuading, forcing and pushing our 'will' to stay Armenian.

As for the Tax payments allow me to become a bit sarcastic. I presume that 99% of the population of Armenia does not pay taxes.
And indeed most of the funds of Armenia come from the immigrants, various Western programs, donations and loans from foreign banks. So if everything boils down to money and sence, then the citizens of Armenia should not be there either.

Dear Alpha, please allow us to cheer for Armenia, sitting in our warm sitting rooms and drinking our coffee. We join our dreams with Armenia and we might ( and have proven that ), we can even assist economically the young and fragile Republic of Armenia.

Furthermore please note that our comfort was not stolen from you. Millions of Diaspora Armenians had to fight against all kinds of odd situations to reach at this comfortable state. We do not have to be apologetic about our current wellbeing.

Maybe , just maybe, 1 or 2 or 3% or 50% of our children will one day choose to move to their great grandparents lands, as mostof the Jews did and are still doing.

Please don't exclude us from this process. Believe me , you have nothing to gain and alot to lose!

With love,
An Armenian , though not a citizen of RoA.

Raffi,
I know exactly what you mean since I deal with the same thing having been born in Romania. Sometimes I just say I'm from Armenia and get it over with.

From a more general homeland point of view I am pretty lost. I don't even know what my hometown is (in the U.S.). I came to the U.S.10 years ago when I was 12 and I've already lived in 4 different cities. I don't feel as if Romania is my homeland at all even though I have a lot of childhood memories. I don't really feel as if the U.S. is my homeland either even though I think that my mentality is American more than anything else. I've never been to Armenia and I don't think I would fit in there in terms of way of thinking. The closest place to Armenia I've lived in was Los Angeles. There are many Armenians I have nothing in common with, but even so I feel more at home among Armenians than anybody else (regardless of their country of origin). From that point of view I would say that Armenia is my homeland (at least theoretically).

[This message has been edited by BTac (edited January 26, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by BTac (edited January 26, 2001).]

MJ, HAB (Hay Azgayin Banak) was disarmed in 91, and it was at that time that Vitya Ayvazyan was shot in front of Groxneri Tun. The formation of illegal military unites occurred from 89 to 92, when all Police stations were invaded by so called patriots. I myself have been witness a battle between illegal military unites and Soviet army in 91, when it occurred right in front of our house in Yerevan. Before 92, nobody even cared about illegality of military units. They were formed to protect us. I guess we finally realized the concept of “yerkati sherep” after more than 100 years Khrimyan Hayrik brought up.

People by no means I am against Diasporas’ love and dedication to Armenia. Diaspora is our national treasure. Armenia would have been in much worse conditions without Diasporas’ help. Sometimes it even amazes me how much patriotism Diasporans have. Makes me feel somewhat guilty for myself. Dual-citizenship is existent in Israel, why can’t it be enforced in Armenia. Israel was in no better shape, when it adopted its law of dual citizenship in 1949. Raffi jan, please don’t get me wrong. I am not against Diasporans’ contribution to our young Republic. What I am against is the know everything attitude from some Diasporan groups. A lot of then denounce the existence of Soviet Armenia, and everything created in 70 years of Soviet rule. It would be more welcoming if Diasporans can lent us help like Sepuh Tashjian (ex energy minister) or Vardan Oskanyan do. Lets consider this hypothetical situation; if there is a war between the country that you are citizen and Armenia, what side would you guys support. Legally you are obligated to support the country whose citizen you are.

Dear Alpha,

Vitya Ayvazyan, I think, was shot in the head by a Major of the Soviet Army in early 1988, while I think HAB was disarmed in 1990. I am aware of the circumstances of its and other formations’ establishment and disarmament in great details, and have known very well many commanders of this and other formations.

The formation of what one would call illegal military units in Armenia, beyond the level of hunting rifles, is attributable to the late 1989 - right before the first Sadarak battle of early 1990.

I know what you are referring to speaking of the clash between one "illegal" military unit – by the way the most disciplined and devoted Armenian military unit at the time – and the Soviet Army at the outskirts of Yerevan. It was a sad incident, due to the civilian casualties. But those who made the decision to confront the Soviet Army had possessed information that it was moving its units into the center of Yerevan, with the purpose of provoking bloodbath. That’s what triggered their actions, they managed to resist the Soviets for half a day, until on a political level the subsequent developments of the events were prevented. Unfortunately, it resulted in casualties in the neighborhood you have lived. I have personal knowledge of these events, too.

It is wrong to assume that before 1992 nobody cared about the illegality of armed units. Some had a clear understanding that they are going to be the headache of Independent Armenia. There were those who cared, there were those who took care of the issue as much as they could under the circumstances.

But the primary thing is that before Septemeber 23, 1991, the very concept of the illegality of the armed units was very vague. One could speak on the legality only after the establishment of the Republic of Armenia.

I also have to add that HAB was a lot of noise about nothing. That formation was poorly trained, poorly armed, with extremely low moral, not disciplined, and has done more shows on asphalt. Its commander was just a joke, and a puppet in the hands of the Communist Party bosses of Soviet Armenia.

There are other formations about which people don't speak, which have had real impact in certain aspects of evolution of Armenian Armed forces, and winning a lot of bottles. But that’s how it usually is – when there is a lot of noise, there is no substance. The opposite is true, too.

That's an incredible question! I'm tempted to start a thread on this, but I can only see it causing strife amongst us.

Heavy stuff, dude.

Alpha,

Fortunately enough your question is hypothetical, at least for most of us. It is one of those questions, which are better unanswered, and that can be afforded because of its hypotheticality.

I see Armenia as a home for all Armenians who want to be a part of it.

This place is reserved for my future comment--