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#21 Johannes

Johannes

    Յովհաննէս

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 09:47 AM

We first need to find as many patterns as possible that are like and unlike Vratseren. This should be an interesting exercise.
Ok Nairi, most of armenian writers use the word "Ebrayeren"(Եբրայերէն) for Hebrew language, but the very respectable Mr. Ajarian, used Ebrayetseren(Եբրայեցերէն) Why? I do not know.
Vrastan, Vratsi, Vratseren
Let me translate this; a language of a person who belongs to the Georgian nationality or to Georgia. Do we say Angliatseren? That means the language of a person who is from England or from the English people.
However, I began this topic because the word "vratseren" falls on my hear grammatically wrong.

Այո Նայիրի, Կոռումպացուածութեան ախտով վարակեցի այս զրուցարանը, բայց եկ կամ արի, տեխնոլոգիապէս մաքուր մթնոլորտի մէջ փոխհամագործակցութեամբ եւ փոխօգնութեամբ իմֆորմացուենք։
Տիար Արփա՝ միտքս ընկաւ մարդ անունը, որու յոգնակին մարդիկ է։ Կուրէն Եփրատ եւ Հալիս հայ ժողուվուրդը մարդ բառը, որպէս մահկանացուի անուն՝ հնչած է՝ մարթ։ Այս զրուցարանի մէջ տեղ մը ընթերցեցի (արդէն նախօրօք գիտէի), որ հնդեւրոպական նախալեզուի մէջ ալ այս բառը մարթ է (կամ մրթ՞ո)։
Կար ժամանակ մը, երբ մենք ունէինք ցեղախումբեր, որոնք նախարարական տուն, երբեմն ալ ազգ կոչուած են։ Ազգն Մամիկոնէից, ազգն Բագրատունեաց եւայլք։ Երբ պատմական հայաստանի քարտէսներուն նայինք, պիտի տեսնենք մի քանի վայրի մէջ արձանագրուած է՝ Մարդեր անունը, որպէս այդ ցեղախումբով բնակուած տարածք։ Այնպէս որ է Արծրունիք, Սանասունք, Մարդեր, Ծաւդէք, Բասեանք եւայլն։ Սոքա նախապէս յիշեալ ցեղերով բնակուած տեղանուներ են, երբեմն ալ ազգանուն եւ տեղանուն միապահ։ Մեք ունեցած ենք Մարդպետունի նախարարական տոհմը, որու պարտքն էր հսկել թագաւորի կանանոցը։ Մարդ անուան, որպէս մահկանացուի, յոգնակի մարդիկ ձեւը զարտուղի է հայերէնի մէջ։ Մարդ ցեղի պատկանող անձերուն մարդիկ անունը տուած կրնանք ըլլալ։ Հայաստանի հարաւը Մարդին անունով քաղաք մը կայ, որ նոյն մարդ ցեղանուան հիմքի վրայ կոչուած է։
Ուրեմն Մարդը, որպէս ցեղանուն, Մարթ մահկանացուի անուան հետ շփոթած կրնանք ըլլալ։
Չէ որ Վարդավառի վարդ արմատ բառն ալ ծաղկի անուան հետ շփոթած ենք։ Հայ լեզուաբաններու վկայութեամբ. Վարդավառի եւ Եղվարդի վարդը մեզի ծանօթ ծաղիկի անունէն առաջացած չէ, այլ հին հայերէն (կամ նախահայերէն) վարթ բառէն, որ ջուր կը նշանակէ։ Վարթավառ (Ջրավառ), Եղվարթ (եւղի կամ եղի կամ իւղի նման ջուր)։ Հիթիթերէն Վաթար, հին Անգլերէն վաթեր (ուոթըր), գերմաներէն վասեր, հայերէն վարթ։ Ի վէրջոյ. հայեր վարդավառ անունը միշտ արտասանած են վարթավառ։
Հայերէնի մէջ ունինք գռեհիկ բառը, որ սփիւռքահայու լեզուով հասարակ կը նշանակէ։ Գռեհիկ բառն ալ գնչուական գռեհ անունով ցեղի մը անունէն առաջացած կրնայ ըլլալ։ Ինչպէս գիտենք աշխարհի տարածքին սփռուած են հիւսիսային հնդկաստանէն գաղթած բազմապիսի գնչուական ցեղեր։ Անոնք իրենց բնակած երկիրներու մէջ ընդունած են տեղական կրօնները, սակայն ընդհանուր առմամբ պահած են իրենց գնչուական լեզուները, կամ գնչուական բարբառները։ Հայաստանի մէջ անոնք բոշա կոչուած են, կամ ալ գնչուներու բոշա ցեղը բնակած է հայաստանի մէջ։ Անոնք քրիստոնեայ էին, սակայն պահած էին իրենց ազգային լեզուն։ Տասն իններորդ դարու վէրջի եւ քսաներրորդ դարու սկիզբի ազգային պայքարի կարկառուն հերոսներէն էր բոշա Սեբաստացի Մուրատ։ Գնչուները փոքր Ասիայէն Բոսփորի վրայով անցան արեւելեան Եւրոպա եւ կազմեցին այժմու Ցիգան ժողովուրդը Ռումինիոյ, Բուլգարիոյ եւ Հունգարիոյ մէջ։ Ցիգան անուան թրքական տարբերակն է Չինգանա, որու փոխաբերական իմաստն է՝ գռեհիկ։ Արեւելաեւրոպացի գնչուներու ինքնանուանումն է Ռամա կամ Ռոմ։Գնչուներու ուրիշ խումբ մը, բնակեցաւ միջին արեւելքի արաբ երկիրներու մէջ։ Գրական արաբերէնով անոնց անունն է Ղաջար, սակայն արաբներ զանոնք կ՚անուանեն որոշ գնչու ցեղախումբերու անունով, որոնք բնակած են Միջագետքի եւ Սուրիոյ մէջ։ Նաւար եւ Կուռբատ տեղական արաբերէնով կը նշանակէ գնչու։ Նաւարի կամ Կուռբատի կը նշանակէ գնչու կամ գռեհիկ անձ մը, որ գնչու չէ։ Միջին դարերուն անոնցմէ խումբեր անցան Եգիպտոս, հիւսիս Ափրիկէ, այդտեղէն ալ Եւրոպական Իբերիա։ Այդ գնչուները եւրոպացիներու կողմէ կոչուեցան Գիպտի (Գիպսի) կամ Ջիպտի (Ջիպսի), որ եգիպտացի կը նշանակէ։ Գնչուները սխալմամբ Եգիպտացի կարծուեցան։ Այդ անունը (Գիպտան, Գիպտի, Գիպսի, Եգիպտի) սպաներէնով Խիտան, Ֆրանսերէնով Ժիտան է։ Թուրքերու կամ միջին արեւելեան թուրքմաններու մօտ կայ ցեղախումբ մը, որ նոյնինքն թուրքերու կողմէ անարգուած է։ Ապտալ ցեղախումբի անդամները չեն ընդունիր, որ թուրք են, թէեւ թուրքերէն կը խօսին։ Անոնք կը նմանին հնդիկի, աւելի քան թուրքի։ Թրքերէն լեզուի մէջ Ապտալ՝ կը նշանակէ գռեհիկ, ապուշ, տխմար, յիմար, դեբիլ, դմբո ....։
Վերեւ իմ հայերէնս գռեհիկ էր։ Փոխանակ ասելու, այս զրուցարանը եղծեցի, կամ խեղեցի կամ փճացուցի կամ փտեցուցի, ես ասացի Կոռումպացրի։ Այս կոռումպացուած բառը Հ.Հ. պետական եւ ոչ պետական լսատեսողական (լսատեսիչ) լրատուամիջոցներէն (լրամիջոցներէն) թութակաբար կը հոլովուի։ Մարդիկ այնքան սովոր եղած են, որ այլեւս չեն կասկածիր այդ բառի ընդունելիութեան։ Ուրեմն լատիներէնէ գերմաներէն, գերմաներէնէ ռուսերէն «ի դէպ՝ ասենք, որ ռուսներու (սա ալ հարց է՝ ռուսեր պէտք է ասեմք թէ ռուսներ) եւրոպական կրթութիւնը գերմանական միջնորդութեամբ է», ռուսերէնէ հայերէն, հայերէնէ գռեհկերէն, գռեհկերէնէ դեբիլերէն այս բառն ստացաւ կոռումպացուածութիւն ձեւը։ Ի~նչ երաժշտական ուժեղ բառ ա։ Առհասարակ ոմանք կը կարծեն, որ բառ մը որքան երկարի այնքան իմաստը ուժեղ կը դառնայ։
Տեխնոլոգիա բառն ալ լատինական Տեքնոլոգիա բառի գերմանական ձեւն է։ Արդարեւ Լատինական Տեքնո եւ հայերէն թեք (թեքել, յարմարեցնել) բառերը հնդեւրոպական նախալեզուի մի եւ նոյն արմատէն առաջ եկած են։ Յետեւաբար ինչու բառը երկարեցնենք եւ ասենք ճարտարարուեստականօրէն, կամ Տեխնոլոգիապէս, ախր երեխէքն ափսոս են, ասենք թեքումով եւ վէրջ։ Փոխհամագործակցութիւն։ Այնքան շեշտ դրուած է երկու կամ աւելի կողմերու միջեւ միաբերան, միակամ աշխատանքի մասին, որ դիւանական բառապաշարի այս նմոյշէն կեղծիքի հոտ կ՚իգայ։ Գործակցութիւն արդէն կը նշանակէ մէկէ աւելի կողմերու միջեւ համաձայն գործ։ Չէ բաւած այսքանը համա մըն ալ աւելցուած է եւ ստացած ենք համագործակցութիւն, որպէսզի չ՚հասկացողը հասկանայ։ Այդքանն ալ բաւարար չէր, փոխ մըն ալ աւելցուած է, որպէսզի դեբիլ ունկդիրը հասկանայ, որ գործողութիւնը միակողմանի չէ։
Այս է Նայիրի ջան, մեր լեզուի վիճակը։ Հարց ու փորձ չ՚անելով ժամանակի ընթացքին ամէն ինչ սովորական եւ ընդունելի կը դառնայ։
Ինչպէս նկատեցիք վերը յիշեցի դեբիլ բառը։ Ի հարկ է ձեզնէ շատեր գիտեն ինչ կը նշանակէ դեբիլ։
Արցախեան ազատամարտի ընթացքին իրենք իրենց ազերի կոչող սինազունները, հայ մարտիկները շփոթեցնելու համար մի քանի էշ արձակած են ռազմի դաշտ։ Իսկոյն ապարանցի նշանառուները դադրեցուցած են կռիւը, պատճառաբանելով, որ.-«չենք կարող կրակել մերոնց վրայ»։
Ուրեմն ոմանց կարծիքով, ապարանցի՝ էշ բառի հոմանիշ է, չ՚նայած հայաստանի ազնուագոյն համայնքը կարող են լինել։
Այս նախաբանը կատարեցի մեկնաբանելու համար դեբիլը։ Երբ արաբները գրաւեցին Արմենիան՝ Դուինը կոչեցին Դեբիլ։ Երկու պատճառ կրնայ ըլլալ, որ Դուինը Դուին չ՚կոչեցին։ Առաջինը.- Դուին անունը դժուարահունչ է արաբի լեզուին, երկրորդ պատճառը.- Ատրպատականի Արդեբիլ քաղաքի անուան ազդեցութիւնը։ Արդարեւ պահլաւերէնով Արտաւետ կոչուող քաղաքը Սասանեան պարսկերէնով Արդաւեդ կոչուած ըլլալու է, որովհետեւ Սասանեան պարսկերէնը պահլաւերէնի հետ համեմատած հնչիւնափոխութեան ենթարկուած է պոլսահայ հայերէնի նման։ Իսկ ինչ՞ու արաբները Արդաւեդը Արդեբիլ կոչած են։ Այդ ալ հիւսիս Իրաքեան (պատմական Ասորեստան, հռովմայեցիներու Ադիաբենէ կոչած երկիրը) Արբելա, կամ Էրբիլ քաղաքի անուան ազդեցութեան յետեւանքն է։ Ուրեմն շատ անուն չ՚սորվելու համար՝ Բաղդադէն Արբիլ, Արբիլէն Արդեբիլ, Արդեբիլէն Դեբիլ անցան եւ մի քանի տարուայ տուրք հաւաքեցին  ։ Իսկ ինչ՞ու Դեբիլցիք յիմարի կամ ապուշի հրչակ ունէին։ Օտարի հալածանքը, Արարատեան տօթը եւ բազում անգամ կրկնուած երկրաշարժը, պատճառ եղան, որ դեբիլեցիք թախծոտ լինեն եւ դրա յետեւանքով մնացեալ հայերու մտապատկերի մէջ ապուշի կարգավիճակ ստանան։ Այդ բառը հայ ժողովուրդի մէջ ապրած է եւ հասած է մեր օրերը։
Այո Արփա, Գեւորգերէն, Մաթեւոսերէն։ Բայց ինչ՞ու մենք՝ Մեսրոպի հաւատարիմներս, կը գրենք Լեւոն եւ ոչ Լէոն, կը գրենք Ղեւոնդ եւ ոչ Ղէոնդ։
Տառադարումի մէկ օրէնք պէտք է եղնի։ Հիմա զրուցենք քիչ մի՝ կիւրճիներու մասին։ Ասորիքի հիւսիս արեւմուտքը երեք արաբ գիւղեր կան, որոնք ուշքս գրաւած են իրենց անուանբ.- Արմանազ, Ջարջանազ եւ Տաֆտանազ։
Դուն լաւ գիտես, երբ արաբերէն բառի մը վրան կամ տակը ֆատհայ, դամէ կամ կասրա չենք դներ, տարբեր ձեւերով կը կարդացուի տուեալ բառը։ Փոխան Դամաշկի կը հնչեն Դիմաշկ, փոխան Հեմսի կը հնչեն Հոմս, ինչեւէ։ Այս նախաբանը կատարեցի ասելու համար, որ Ջարջանազ անուանբ գեղն ալ իսկապէս Ջուրջանազ է։ Ուրեմն Արմենազ, Ջուրջանազ եւ Տաֆտանազ։ Արաբ մատենագիրները, վրաց ազգը Ջուրջան կոչած են։ Եմենցիներու եւ Եգիպտացիներու արաբերէն արտասանութեամբ այդ բառը Գուրգան (Գուրգէն) կը հնչէ։ Ով գիտէ այդ մատենագիրները Արաբիոյ որ անկիւնէն գացած են Արմենիա եւ արձանագրած են իրենց տեսածը։
Ջուրջան կամ Գուրգան ազգը նոյն ժամանակի հայ մատենագիրներու գրիչով Գուգար կոչուած է։ Մենք գիտենք, որ վրացիներու տեսակը շատ է, եւ երբեմն նոյն ժողովուրդը տարբեր ժամանակներու ընթացքին տարբեր անուններ ունեցած է։ Եգերներ, Ծանարներ, Մցխեթներ, Կոլխեր, Մինգրել թէ Մեգրելներ, Իմերելներ, Մոսխեր, Սվաններ, Գուգարներ եւայլն։ Իբերիա եւ այդ անունէն առաջացած վրացի անունը Յոյներու կամ Մակեդոնացիներու կողմէ տրուած է այս կովկասեան ժողովուրդին։ Հայաստանի Գուգարք անուանբ նահանգի հիւսիսային հարեւան ժողովուրդը. Գուգար, Գուրգար, Գուրգան, Ջուրջան եւ վէրջապէս Գէորգիան, Ջէորջիան կոչուած է։ Բիւզանդացիք տարբեր ազգերէ զինուոր հաւաքելով բանակներ կազմած են (փռանկներ, սլավներ, գերմաններ, հայեր, վրացիներ եւայլք)։
Հայ զինուորներու բանակավայրը Արմենաս, Վրացիներունը Ջուրջանաս, Գերմանացիներունը Տեւտոնաս կոչուած է։

Հովիկ


#22 nairi

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Posted 15 September 2006 - 01:58 PM

QUOTE(Johannes @ Sep 8 2006, 05:47 PM) View Post
Vrastan, Vratsi, Vratseren
Let me translate this; a language of a person who belongs to the Georgian nationality or to Georgia. Do we say Angliatseren? That means the language of a person who is from England or from the English people.
However, I began this topic because the word "vratseren" falls on my hear grammatically wrong.


But we do say parskeren. Read my response below.

QUOTE
Տիար Արփա՝ միտքս ընկաւ մարդ անունը, որու յոգնակին մարդիկ է։ Կուրէն Եփրատ եւ Հալիս հայ ժողուվուրդը մարդ բառը, որպէս մահկանացուի անուն՝ հնչած է՝ մարթ։ Այս զրուցարանի մէջ տեղ մը ընթերցեցի (արդէն նախօրօք գիտէի), որ հնդեւրոպական նախալեզուի մէջ ալ այս բառը մարթ է (կամ մրթ՞ո)։


Yes, the plural of mard is mardik. But why do we add -ner to parsikner when -ik already indicates plurality? And again, why have Armenians, as far as I know, never called themselves hayik?

Let met get to the rest of what you write. As I understand it, you seem to be revolving around one central point: namely that our language has been corrupted by, on the one hand, mispronunciation or misunderstanding. On the other hand, you say that we have too many loanwords in our language that could easily be replaced by native equivalents.

You also make an interesting point that language tends to change, or alter, precisely because of misunderstandings, mispronunciations, and bad linguists. The question is, what makes your analysis of the Armenian language any more correct than what linguists have so far done? In other words: how are you so sure that YOU are not corrupting Armenian any more than it has already been corrupted by others?

My simple view is this: language will change according to how people use it. The more people use a word, phrase, or grammatical form, the sooner it will be taken over by the majority. In other words, changing a language is in your hands. Simply by using a word or form that you think is correct is already a change in the language, albeit on a small-scale. But you can't expect or force the rest of the people to follow in your footsteps. Nor can you expect people to agree with you that your way is the correct form and theirs is the incorrect. All you can do is hope that your way of using a certain word or phrase catches on with the rest. And the only way for it to ever catch on is for you to use it without expecting anyone else to do so too. Just as no linguist has ever been able to annilihate dialects, informal speech, and the entrance of loanwords into a language, neither can you set rules that will force people to alter their use of their language.

#23 Johannes

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 06:04 AM

But we do say parskeren. Read my response below.Nevertheless, dear Nairi please tell me, or teach me if you want, why you concern "ik" suffix with "atsi" suffix?
Let met get to the rest….
Also the foreigner's occupation and missing of our own government. Therefore, we cannot accept the spoken language without correcting. It cannot be a right model for the future Armenian language because more than thousand years no one corrected us and our culture was under the mercy of some volunteers and monks. Du ches giter homentmenakan kargakhos
Bardzratsir Bardzratsour
We must not descent to the level of people and accept every thing they use for language, but we must teach ourselves and raise the people with us.
…Already been corrupted by others?
Kav litsi, es chem asoum or amenaget em kam hayaget em,
I am learning here more than any other thing. However, I am expecting intelligent and admittable replies for my views.
My simple view is this…. changing a language is in your hands.
Moreover, who told you the majority is on right? Would not it be the law of forest? If every ten year we loan 50 word from foreigners or we corrupt the words, after 100 year it will be 500 word and after 1000 year it will be 5000 word, then we could not confirm that we are the heirs of that ancient country which is called Armenia and our language has any relation with ancient Armenian (grabar).
There must be firm connections between the ancient Armenian language, and the nowadays written Armenian language then the language of our coming generations.
I will tell you who will prevail our language.
The rulers of Armenian media, those who use the korumpatsouats style of eastern Armenian. Not your native Djoulfayakan nor other western dialects of our language will survive.
For that reason I am anxious of eastern Armenian (the state language), and I am attempting to tell you something about it.
I am not hoping or forcing anyone to write like me.

#24 nairi

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 03:23 PM

QUOTE(Johannes @ Sep 19 2006, 02:04 PM) View Post
But we do say parskeren. Read my response below.Nevertheless, dear Nairi please tell me, or teach me if you want, why you concern "ik" suffix with "atsi" suffix?


Not sure what you mean by "concern." Do you mean "confuse"?

QUOTE
Let met get to the rest….
Also the foreigner's occupation and missing of our own government. Therefore, we cannot accept the spoken language without correcting. It cannot be a right model for the future Armenian language because more than thousand years no one corrected us and our culture was under the mercy of some volunteers and monks. Du ches giter homentmenakan kargakhos
Bardzratsir Bardzratsour
We must not descent to the level of people and accept every thing they use for language, but we must teach ourselves and raise the people with us.


Spoken language will always exist, simply because it is through speech that we acquire the basics of language (you don't expect babies to read Classical Armenian, do you?).

QUOTE
…Already been corrupted by others?
Kav litsi, es chem asoum or amenaget em kam hayaget em,
I am learning here more than any other thing. However, I am expecting intelligent and admittable replies for my views.


You say you're not an Armenologist, yet you do seem rather opinionated on Armenian.

QUOTE
My simple view is this…. changing a language is in your hands.
Moreover, who told you the majority is on right? Would not it be the law of forest? If every ten year we loan 50 word from foreigners or we corrupt the words, after 100 year it will be 500 word and after 1000 year it will be 5000 word, then we could not confirm that we are the heirs of that ancient country which is called Armenia and our language has any relation with ancient Armenian (grabar).


There is no right or wrong, in my personal view of language. Once it is used regularly by a group of people (small or large), it becomes part of the language by definition. If we don't speak the same Armenian in 300 years from now, there is nothing to be concerned about. Language is a living thing, and an evolving thing. It changes with the people.

My arguments against bringing back Mashtotsian Armenian are many-fold. First of all, we have absolutely no way of knowing how Armenian was spoken by Mashtots. Although we have an idea of how Mashtots and his school used to write, we have no idea how they pronounced the words in speech. Secondly, Mashtots' Armenian was standardized, in the same way that Soviet Armenian was standardized. In other words, the language was created artificially to suit certain rules, making Classical Armenian an artificial language. Thirdly, Mashtots' Armenian was already highly "contaminated" with foreign words, from Greek, Persian, Assyrian, Georgian, and god knows what else. Moreover, Mashtots, like the Soviets in our days, added many more foreign words to Armenian, because they did not exist in Armenian, and Mashtots was pragmatic enough to know that sometimes there is no point in creating a new word when you can borrow an existing one from another language. Fourthly, Armenian had been around for many more centuries before Mashtots. Taking the simple course of natural linguistic change, Mashtots could not have possibly spoken the Armenian that Hayk or his ancestors spoke. By the time Mashtots recorded our language for the first time, it was already very far removed from its origins.

Now. You want to bring back an extinct language that we can no longer revive in speech, because we have no idea what it sounded like. At the same time, you want to revive a language that was artificial to begin with. Moreover, you want to revive a language that was as contaminated with foreign words as the Armenian we speak today. Finally, you want to revive a language that was as far removed from its origins as the Armenian we speak today is from Mashtots' Armenian.

Do you see why I think it's downright ridiculous to try to revive Classical Armenian? I say: leave it where it is. We speak a different Armenian now and our grandchildren will be speaking a different one. It doesn't matter. It's normal. It's what happens to languages. Why are we so insecure about our language? Is it because we're afraid we'll have to live in diaspora for a couple more centuries, because our internal politics are one big mess? I'm confident enough to say: que sera, sera. If we are extinct in a few generations, so be it. If we're not, so be it too.

QUOTE
There must be firm connections between the ancient Armenian language, and the nowadays written Armenian language then the language of our coming generations.
I will tell you who will prevail our language.
The rulers of Armenian media, those who use the korumpatsouats style of eastern Armenian. Not your native Djoulfayakan nor other western dialects of our language will survive.
For that reason I am anxious of eastern Armenian (the state language), and I am attempting to tell you something about it.
I am not hoping or forcing anyone to write like me.


I have no issues with ROA's Armenian, if that's what you're getting at. I'm also not afraid that dialects will die out. Why is it that only small nations have these ridiculous fears? Why is that in the English-speaking world there are thousands of dialects living side by side with formal, media, academic language, without anyone fearing the loss of any one of them? What is our problem?

Edited by nairi, 19 September 2006 - 03:26 PM.


#25 shaunt

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 09:08 PM

The suffix -eren is not Armenian.

#26 nairi

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 06:34 AM

QUOTE(shaunt @ Sep 20 2006, 05:08 AM) View Post
The suffix -eren is not Armenian.


As we go along, it becomes clearer and clearer that there is no such thing as the Armenian language. If we were to strip away all the loanwords, all the loan-suffixes and prefixes, all the loan-grammar rules, we would be left with nothing original. Hence, Armenian as a language, from the perspective of our purists, doesn't even exist.

#27 shaunt

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 09:47 AM

QUOTE(nairi @ Sep 20 2006, 07:34 AM) View Post
As we go along, it becomes clearer and clearer that there is no such thing as the Armenian language. If we were to strip away all the loanwords, all the loan-suffixes and prefixes, all the loan-grammar rules, we would be left with nothing original. Hence, Armenian as a language, from the perspective of our purists, doesn't even exist.


Some people look at language and see its formal aspects, e.g. grammar and syntax. I look at our language, the words of our language, and in these words I see the residue, the stains of subjugation. And there is one example I always use, the word "Azat," which denotes "freedom." There is something ironic in using a word imposed by foreigners to express ones freedom.

And yes, it appears to be the case that the "Armenian" (see, I even put quotations around it, biggrin.gif ) language does not exist, if by "Armenian" we mean the language originally spoken by our Indo-European ancestors. But that should not discourage us. Complete purification of our language is not possible, but it does make sense to speak of a language as being more pure, or less pure, does it not?

#28 Johannes

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 10:51 AM

Yes, I mean from the beginning you confused the "ik" (Parsik) with "atsi" (Vratsi(.
(You do not expect babies to read Classical Armenian, do you?).
Shall we stay always babies in the Armenian language?
Classical Armenian is not so far from us. 7 Million Armenians learn many foreign languages, but you are refusing to teach our kids better Armenian language.
We cannot specialize in the Armenian Language if we do not learn its all components (eastern and western dialects, standards, old scripts). I am just trying to tell some thing in unification of the Armenians, here in the unification of communication devices (media, language, orthography).
Who is armenologist here? You may in grammar better than me, but you did not satisfy me in your replies, about Vratseren, Angliatseren.
There is no right or wrong, in my personal view of language. Once it is used regularly by a group of people (small or large), it becomes part of the language by definition.
Here is the difference between my way of thinking and yours. I am not thinking about a group of people, but the all Armenian people.
This is nothing more than a dialect, group of people. But I am discussing you about the language of the education, about the language of communication and media.
Language is a living thing, and an evolving thing. It changes with the people.
I agree with you if we were 35 million, or we were not Genocided if we were not banished out of our homeland.
In addition, if there were not many communities of our people, spread all over the world from Papua New Guinea to Trinidad and Tobago.
First of all, we have absolutely no way of knowing how Armenian was spoken by Mashtots
Are you talking about Urartian language or the language that employed to translate a great literary book as the holy bible?
Although we have an idea of how Mashtots and his school used to write, we have no idea how they pronounced the words in speech.
Linguists know how Indo Europeans before 5000 years spelled hundreds and hundreds of words, but you say that we can not know, before 1600 years our Armenian ancestors how spelled the words, and read a clerkship as the newly translated holy bible?
Yes, Soviet Armenian was standardized to simplify the language, but that standardization corrupted our language, so now when we write with soviet orthography the word ser (love), and ser (cream) has the same dictation but in Mesropean, they are different words.
Thirdly, Mashtots' Armenian was already highly "contaminated" with foreign words, from Greek, Persian, Assyrian, Georgian, and god knows what else
With this phrase above, you declare that.-we the Armenians, after our alphabet creator death, we began to purify our language systematically! Alternatively, we loaned more and more words, idioms, and way of speech from foreigners.
However, my problem is not with loaned words but with those half-educated Media officials who use foreign words when we have many Armenian clone words.
By the time Mashtots recorded our language for the first time, it was already very far removed from its origins.
Yes, you are right, but what you want to say with this phrase? With Mashtots our language born again. Nevertheless, we cannot abjure him, because he had not any Armenian ancient literal sources, but we have his alphabet, and 1600 years old literature.
Now. You want to bring back an extinct language that we can no longer revive in speech, because we have no idea what it sounded like.
No, I do not want to bring back to speech, but I wish to teach our children that language, that is not extinct at all with the meaning of the extinction that we know. It is very beautiful and noble language. In addition, I am hearing it many years in the churches, and any Armenian that knows the language well, can understand it. If you do not have idea what it sounded, I can tell you that I have idea.
At the same time, you want to revive a language that was artificial to begin with.
Who told you that it was artificial language? Were you there in Taraun or in Vagharshapat?
Moreover, you want to revive a language that was as contaminated with foreign words as the Armenian we speak today.
I am trying to tell you that we should stop the contamination of the language as they done. First, they transliterate the word "Episcopos", and then they created the Armenian word "Tesouch", arradjnord. First, they transliterated the word "Christos", and then they noticed that they should create an Armenian word for it "Phrkich".
In addition, the creation of Armenian alphabet aimed to end or stop or slack Armenians assimilation and contamination.
Finally, you want to revive a language that was as far removed from its origins as the Armenian we speak today is from Mashtots' Armenian.
Ok, but which origin you are talking about? Did Tigran Artashesian spoke the original Armenian, or Greek? You cannot talk about any ignorant thing.
I'm also not afraid that dialects will die out.
Dialects have precious treasures for scientific issues.
Why is it that only small nations have these ridiculous fears? Why is that in the English-speaking world there are thousands of dialects living side by side with formal, media, academic language, without anyone fearing the loss of any one of them? What is our problem?
Did not you notice that you answered your question?
Small nations, big nations. In addition, it is not ridiculous at all.
becomes clearer that there is no such thing as the Armenian language. If we were to strip away all the loanwords, all the loan-suffixes and prefixes, all the loan-grammar rules, we would be left with nothing original. Hence, Armenian as a language, from the perspective of our purists, doesn't even exist.
Bravo Nairi, there is nothing as Armenian language when we strip away the all loan words...!
Ok who without us use those names for numbers?
Mek, Erkou, Ereq… In addition, thousands of other original Armenian words, suffixes and prefixes.
Even I do not need to confirm it.
Before millions of years my, your, and Nelson Mandela's grand grand grand grand grandfather was the same person, the first Homo sapiens or Adam (Eva's husband) if you want, but that does not mean that Armenian language borrowed from the Zulu, or gulu-gulu language or vice versa.
I know, you know, and every one knows that the Armenian language is very respectable, and unique, and a solo branch inside the Indo-European languages.

Johannes

#29 Eurocentric

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 12:07 PM

Well I wouldn't go as far as to say that the Armenian language doesn't exist
It's just that over 60% Armenian is composed of Iranic loanwords in four layers:Median/Scythian, Achaemenid Old Persian, Parthian Middle Persian (where most loandwords are from) and some from modern.

Other ancients loanwords of peculiar origin are usually associated with Urartian (artsiv, qaghak etc.)

We then get rid of the few Luwian and Hittite ones. Strip the Latin and Greek and find at the bottom the real Armenian tongue.gif

Some words which are not loanwords: mets, aner, djerm, yekhpayr, mayr, hayr (almost anything with -ayr) etc.
Some verbs like dnel, vertsnel, arnel, utel etc.

Edited by Eurocentric, 20 September 2006 - 12:08 PM.


#30 Eurocentric

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 01:01 PM

QUOTE(Johannes @ Sep 20 2006, 10:51 AM) View Post
Mek, Erkou, Ereq…


Armenian numbers are the most peculiar in IE languages.

http://www.zompist.com/numbers.htm

Then there's hazar which is 100% Iranic.

#31 nairi

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 02:49 PM

QUOTE(Eurocentric @ Sep 20 2006, 08:07 PM) View Post
Well I wouldn't go as far as to say that the Armenian language doesn't exist
It's just that over 60% Armenian is composed of Iranic loanwords in four layers:Median/Scythian, Achaemenid Old Persian, Parthian Middle Persian (where most loandwords are from) and some from modern.


And 60% or more of Old Persian was taken from somewhere else!

QUOTE
Some words which are not loanwords: mets, aner, djerm, yekhpayr, mayr, hayr (almost anything with -ayr) etc.
Some verbs like dnel, vertsnel, arnel, utel etc.


This is an assumption, which is not necessarily true! How do you know? How do we know that Armenians in the early days did not almost fully replace their language with Indo-European? Making Indo-European a borrowed language, and not a native one.

#32 nairi

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 02:57 PM

Hovanes, yes, HOVANES (because that is how I pronounce your name in my corrupted modern Armenian), I came to the conclusion quite some time ago that having discussions with purists was truly both a waste of time for me, as well as for them.

Let's leave the discussion here. There's no more to be said. I gave most of my arguments, and I will be repeating them again. Your arguments are all too familiar for me. I've heard them ever since my father and his brother decided to "purify" their Armenian and started teaching their kids ridiculous words like "horeghporakin."

#33 Eurocentric

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 04:26 PM

QUOTE(nairi @ Sep 20 2006, 02:49 PM) View Post
And 60% or more of Old Persian was taken from somewhere else!


Wrong. It was not taken from anywhere. It evolved from the Proto-Indo-Iranian language.

QUOTE
This is an assumption, which is not necessarily true! How do you know? How do we know that Armenians in the early days did not almost fully replace their language with Indo-European? Making Indo-European a borrowed language, and not a native one.


Wrong again. Because if your "Armenian" was not IE than it was NOT Armenian.

#34 Eurocentric

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 04:29 PM

QUOTE(nairi @ Sep 20 2006, 02:57 PM) View Post
Hovanes, yes, HOVANES (because that is how I pronounce your name in my corrupted modern Armenian), I came to the conclusion quite some time ago that having discussions with purists was truly both a waste of time for me, as well as for them.

Let's leave the discussion here. There's no more to be said. I gave most of my arguments, and I will be repeating them again. Your arguments are all too familiar for me. I've heard them ever since my father and his brother decided to "purify" their Armenian and started teaching their kids ridiculous words like "horeghporakin."


I think it's silly to call him a "purist" or whatever. I guess you haven't met those that start foaming from the mouth and say bs like how do you know Persians didn't borrow those words from us or that Ararat is pure Armenian and not the Hebrew form of the Assyrian Urartu etc. biggrin.gif

#35 nairi

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 04:46 PM

QUOTE(Eurocentric @ Sep 21 2006, 12:26 AM) View Post
Wrong. It was not taken from anywhere. It evolved from the Proto-Indo-Iranian language.


How are you so sure? And what the heck is proto-Indo-Iranian? Why do you take every word that some German "philologists" at the turn of the twentieth century said as if it is god-sent truth?

QUOTE
Wrong again. Because if your "Armenian" was not IE than it was NOT Armenian.


Or the "Armenian" we speak today is not Armenian, but a dialect of Indo-European. Why call it Armenian and not Indo-European?

Replacing languages/dialects is not so strange a phenomenon. Take the Irish of our days.

Edited by nairi, 20 September 2006 - 04:46 PM.


#36 nairi

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 04:56 PM

QUOTE(Johannes @ Sep 20 2006, 06:51 PM) View Post
Yes, I mean from the beginning you confused the "ik" (Parsik) with "atsi" (Vratsi(.
(You do not expect babies to read Classical Armenian, do you?).

but you did not satisfy me in your replies, about Vratseren, Angliatseren.


And you confuse "ia" with "astan." I never meant to "satisfy" you with my answers. I'm asking you to question your own theories and in the least come up with a logical argument, if you want me to take your theory seriously. Seriously, btw, does not mean agree. You may well want to become an Armenologist first, before you blurt out that we should say this instead of that, without taking anything else into consideration.

#37 Eurocentric

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 08:24 PM

QUOTE(nairi @ Sep 20 2006, 04:46 PM) View Post
How are you so sure? And what the heck is proto-Indo-Iranian? Why do you take every word that some German "philologists" at the turn of the twentieth century said as if it is god-sent truth?
Or the "Armenian" we speak today is not Armenian, but a dialect of Indo-European. Why call it Armenian and not Indo-European?


German philologists? Way to go! So Indo-European studies and linguistics were pioneered by Germans and those studies have been stuck in a time warp ever since right?
Did you know that the earth was round?
I'm now not sure if you were being serious or were just ***ing around, i'm a little tired so might have missed the sarcasm...

QUOTE
Replacing languages/dialects is not so strange a phenomenon. Take the Irish of our days.


So? That's irrelevant. We don't care about the language replacement theory. If there was a different language spoken in the region before it was NOT Armenian but was hypothetically replaced by Armenian.
Irish Gaelic is still around and is an official language of the European Union, you were trying to say but failed to say that most Irish people speak English rather than Irish.

#38 nairi

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 08:55 PM

QUOTE(Eurocentric @ Sep 21 2006, 04:24 AM) View Post
So? That's irrelevant. We don't care about the language replacement theory. If there was a different language spoken in the region before it was NOT Armenian but was hypothetically replaced by Armenian.


The question is: what is Armenian? Apparently, from what you are saying, it's a dialect of Indo-European spoken by a people who call themselves "Armenian." In other words, there is no difference between Armenian and German, since they are both essentially Indo-European. If we were therefore to replace "yerkir" with "land" it should not be considered a loanword, since both belong to the same language. Is that what you are saying? If not, then what are you saying?

QUOTE
Irish Gaelic is still around and is an official language of the European Union, you were trying to say but failed to say that most Irish people speak English rather than Irish.


I figured intelligent people would be able to deduct that without me spelling it out.

#39 Johannes

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 07:36 AM

This is an assumption, which is not necessarily true! How do you know? How do we know?
That Armenians in the early days did not almost fully replace their language with Indo-European.

How you can say some thing like that? Did the Armenians before 2800 years had Hübschmann's or Meillet's studies or dictionaries about Indo-European languages to do that?
Indo-European is not a language as language we understand. Indo-Europeans are not a nation as a nation we understand. Let me give you an example; Indo-European is my and yours and some one else mother, we all learned many words from our mother, so you cannot tell me that I borrow from you or vice versa. Linguists arrived to results after years of studying and comparing languages and words of different Indo-European languages. We have her (maz) which is the same in English hair, did they loan from us or vice versa? Of course no. We never met Anglo-Saxons during our history. In addition, there are hundreds and hundreds of words we share with other Indo Europeans.
Or the "Armenian" we speak today is not Armenian, but a dialect of Indo-European. Why call it Armenian and not Indo-European?
We cannot call it a dialect because other Indo-European speakers do not understand us at all.
and you confuse "ia" with "astan."
How I confused? I was talking about names of languages.
"yerkir" with "land"
Naira khanoum; Let me to continue my theory that you call it myth. Those brothers who born from the same mother spread over thousands of kilometers, and met others whom born from other mothers. After hundreds and thousands of years, each brother began to use the words that he learned from his mother but did not forget in different accents, and each brother sometimes began to use the same word in different cases.
Discussions with purists were truly both a waste of time for me, as well as for them.
I never said that we should erasure loan words (Arian, Semitic, Latin-Greek, and Hurrian-Sumerian) from our language. I every time said that we should not use turkish words because turks conquered our land, slaughtered our kids, raped our girls and women, especially we have the clone ones for those borrowed words.
In addition, we should stop borrowing new words from European languages especially when we have the Armenian version for them.
I've heard them ever since my father and his brother decided to "purify" their Armenian and started teaching their kids ridiculous words like "horeghporakin."
I offer "Hoparkin" instead of Horeghborakin, then according with your ideas about the language as a living thing; you can call your horeghborakin as "Ammognig" or the Armenian form of Italian word "Tanto" which is "Tantig".
Then there is hazar which is 100% Iranic.
What about "Biur", is it Iranian also?
Dear Euro Centro; what you aim when you call me foam mouthed? I think you are confusing me with those blind nationalists, who believe that we have 7736 years and five months and sixty seven minutes old history, and the all indo Europeans born from the womb of Armenian nation.

#40 Eurocentric

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 09:15 AM

QUOTE(Johannes @ Sep 21 2006, 07:36 AM) View Post
Dear Euro Centro; what you aim when you call me foam mouthed? I think you are confusing me with those blind nationalists, who believe that we have 7736 years and five months and sixty seven minutes old history, and the all indo Europeans born from the womb of Armenian nation.


I was not referring to you.

Anyway, i'm actually quite proud of the ancient Iranic loanwords in Armenian, the names we use too. We preserved more of ancient Iranian culture and language than the mongrelized inhabitants of modern Iran today. How many people from Iran do you know with names like Vartan, Bagrat, Tigran, Arshak, Vardkes, Karen, Suren etc.
I have no problem with recently introduced loanwords from Europe either. I'm opposed to semitic and turkic loanwords as they are complteley alien, but there are hardly any outside of street jargon.




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