160 replies to this topic

[THOTH]

Many argue how homosexuality and what have you are sinful, specifically prohibited and punishible by God as they can find versus to support such (exclusively from the old testment and primarily in Leviticus it seems...)...so in this vein I came accross a post in another forum that I think is food for thought regarding gods eternal word concerning right and wrong and suggested punishments for transgressions etc. Here is an excerpt from a post where someone is enquiring to a Christian friend for guidance on the correct course of action according to God's word...

"I do need some advice from you... regarding some of the specific laws
and how to follow them.

a. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a
pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They
claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus
21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her
period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I
tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female,
provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine
claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify?
Why can't I own Canadians?

e. I have a neighbor who insists on working on Sunday (the Sabbath). In the
book of Exodus verse 35:2 it clearly states he should be put to death. Am I
morally obligated to kill him myself?

f. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an
abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I
don't know. Can you settle this?

g. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a
defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my
vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair
around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27.
How should they die?

i. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me
unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different
crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two
different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also
tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all
the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them?
(Lev.24:10-16). Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family
affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14).

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can
help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and
unchanging, and we should do what the bible says."

Edited by THOTH, 08 June 2004 - 01:04 PM.

[Sip]

That's some good stuff

[nairi]

This is what I hate about Christianity. No one knows what the hell to follow. Aren't Christians supposed to follow the Gospels, and NOT the Old Testament? Isn't the Old Testament for Jews only? Or am I misunderstanding something??

[Arpa]

I could have written the above myself.
In fact I could kick myself for not doing it.
I am jealous.
It is a brilliant piece.
As to Nairi's question about the OT.
They can have their Book of lies and and bury it in the product of that bull mentioned above.
However, sadly enough many do believe it to be written by the hand of God.
Sad! Sad indeed!

Let me add;

Isaiah says to "beat their swords into plowshares..." while Joel says; "Beat their plowshares into swords..."

Can we use plowshares to cut meat or use swords to cultivate the land?

I can think of more moronities.

[Armen]

This is what I hate about Christianity. No one knows what the hell to follow. Aren't Christians supposed to follow the Gospels, and NOT the Old Testament? Isn't the Old Testament for Jews only? Or am I misunderstanding something??

That's exactly why the New Testament is there. Because the Old Jewish one is a joke.

[THOTH]

Yeah Nairi - but all the good fire & brimestone stuff and smiting enemies and punishing offenders - well all that is in the Old Testament...where would Christianity be without it? A bunch of do gooding pacifists...I mean how could we have overun the New World and made the rest (well except for a few patches of desert in the Middle East..) our own with this sort of philosophy?

Actually - on a serious note - I have had long debates with a good/practicing (and very well informed) Christian friend of mine where I argue that the God(s) (the Elohim and then this guy Yawaeh) of the Old Testament are in fact different (as in different beings entirely) then the Gods (father Jehova, Son Jesus and that nebulus Holy Ghost) whose (various) attributes are described in the New....he feels differently...(something about a contract involving this Jesus fellow alleviating the wrath of the vengeful & jealous old bearded guy...you know the one who pretty much just F'd with the Jews anyway..and their Philistinian neighbors & such...and they left the rest of the world pretty much be to do as they wished...to worship fire, the sun, trees, and various pantheons of mixed morality and such...)..don't know really...though in my mind its all just meaningless speculation (about contrived non-existant personalities...)...like did Shakespear really write all those plays & sonnets? Well we know that the various books of the bible (that have been compiled by humans) were actually written by various humans as well...and then there is this Mohhammed guy, and Joseph Smith, Sun Yung Moon, L Ron hubbard, Sasun & Domino and who knows who else who have all (claimed to) receive divine inspiration of one sort or another...

[THOTH]

That's exactly why the New Testament is there. Because the Old Jewish one is a joke.

But when one ascribes to believeing the Bible as the word of God - who is it to take it upon themselves to choose? And wasn't the entire legitimacy of Jesus supposedly based on proffecies form the Old Testament and didn't Jesus himself (according to Mat, Mar, Lu & Jo & apostle Paul) base his entire religious underpinnings on the continuity and application of the Old Testament teachings/history etc - wasn't this the intent...oh yeah and to bring such to the Gentiles and throw in a bunch of Peace Love and Dope stuff along with it? (I always pictured him as a real hippie king....don't know...JC Superstar...etc)

[Armen]

But when one ascribes to believeing the Bible as the word of God - who is it to take it upon themselves to choose? And wasn't the entire legitimacy of Jesus supposedly based on proffecies form the Old Testament and didn't Jesus himself (according to Mat, Mar, Lu & Jo & apostle Paul) base his entire religious underpinnings on the continuity and application of the Old Testament teachings/history etc - wasn't this the intent...oh yeah and to bring such to the Gentiles and throw in a bunch of Peace Love and Dope stuff along with it? (I always pictured him as a real hippie king....don't know...JC Superstar...etc)

No

[THOTH]

No

Well that settles it then...

[Arpa]

c. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her
period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I
tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
=======
g. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a
defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my
vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

Did you know that the main reason women are barred from priesthood, in fact they are not even allowed to step on the altar is because they are "unclean". All the arguments pro and con never mention this. It is the best kept secret, I heard this from an Armenian priest who confessed to be in agreementof the ban.

Didi you know that church canon, be it Apostolic or Protestant, I don'rt know about the Catholic, bans people (men) with any blemish or any physical diasbility from the priesthood and pastorship. Although the rule has been broken many times, at least in the Protestant case.

There have been those who have advocated to censure and bar the OT as being too violent, brutal and prejudicial.
I wish they would. It would solve the problem of wars and other conflicts speially the ones going in the Middle East, where some so called Christian idiots believe it is the will of god. And that some people are favored by God and others not.

[Armen]

Well that settles it then...

I'm glad that converting you was that easy.

Thoth, you're a natural anti-Christian, anti-idealist by your every manifestation. The primitivist realzim that you apply to everything in your life solves all the issues for you. If you're happy in your limits there is no reason to make your life more complicated.

As to the stuff you posted above I think you should have posted it in the Jokes section. If you take it seriously, I can seach the web and find this kind of funny stuff about your every belief, including your wife and favourite salad.

[Maral]

No one judge me on this...I am a true believer... but...Thoth...
that was funny!

[bellthecat]

And how many of the 10 "big" commandments have you broken, Winston? (apart from the one I know about).

[THOTH]

I'm glad that converting you was that easy.

Yes go on believing..it will do you just as well...and have just as much relevance...

Thoth, you're a natural anti-Christian, anti-idealist by your every manifestation. The primitivist realzim that you apply to everything in your life solves all the issues for you. If you're happy in your limits there is no reason to make your life more complicated.

Why thank you I guess...oh but you are calling my "realism" primitive..much like the Church viewed Copernicus I imagine...and who says I'm anti-Idealist?

And somehow I don't find myself limited...I'm certainly open to (potentially) believing in anything...I've just grown out of fairy tales....

...I can seach the web and find this kind of funny stuff about your every belief, including your wife and favourite salad.

Really? Didn't know that my wife was passing behavoral edicts resulting in condemnation and death..and she ussually gives me pretty much a free hand in what I do...if anything she is more liberal then I....

And I'll have to get back to you on my (judgemental) salad...I'm pretty open about what I like - do I really have to choose a one and only favorite? Whose rules?

But seriously - this issue is not a joke - when it results in peoples (harmless) behaviors being condemned and when we have folks running around saying that the word of the Bible is the word of God and is immutable and such...

Edited by THOTH, 08 June 2004 - 02:43 PM.

[gamavor]

This is what I hate about Christianity. No one knows what the hell to follow. Aren't Christians supposed to follow the Gospels, and NOT the Old Testament? Isn't the Old Testament for Jews only? Or am I misunderstanding something??

The New Testament is much more harsh in terms of moral code obedience on believers than The Old one. But as anything ever written in this world each coin has two sides. The choice which side to choose is yours (if any ).

I wonder if some people that are dressed in power that (never mind... ) have ever heard of "Blessed are the peacemakers" and the offering of the other cheek in certain situations.

Edited by gamavor, 08 June 2004 - 04:38 PM.

[Maral]

The New Testament is much more harsh in terms of moral code obedience on believers than The Old one. But as anything ever written in this world each coin has two sides. The choice which side to choose is yours (if any ).

I wonder if some people that are dressed in power that (never mind... ) have ever heard of "Blessed are the peacemakers" and the offering of the other chick in certain situations.

Peacemakers
Read: 1 Samuel 25:14-35

Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. —Matthew 5:9

Abigail was a remarkable woman! She was a true peacemaker whose courage spared the future king of Israel from committing a terrible sin. Here's her story:

David had been forced to live in the countryside to escape King Saul's jealous wrath. A group of about 600 men and their families had gathered around him. For several months they camped near Carmel where the flocks of Nabal (Abigail's husband) were grazing. David's men had helped Nabal's shepherds protect the sheep from robbers. Now the shearing time had come, and David sent messengers to request some compensation from Nabal, who was a wealthy man. But he refused and treated David's men with disdain.

In anger David rashly decided to kill Nabal and all the men in his household. When Abigail heard what had happened, she quickly gathered a large supply of food, intercepted David and his fighting men, and humbly apologized for her husband's surly behavior. David immediately realized that she had prevented him from carrying out a vengeful decision, and he praised God (1 Samuel 25:32).

Are we as quick to resolve a conflict? Jesus said, "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God" (Matthew 5:9). —Herb Vander Lugt


How blest are those who persevere
To bring a conflict to an end;
And if the peace of Christ takes hold,
An enemy becomes a friend. —D. De Haan

You can be a peacemaker if you have God's peace in your heart.

[gamavor]

And how many of the 10 "big" commandments have you broken, Winston? (apart from the one I know about).

Let me guess! Love your neighbor…but be careful not to get caught!

Thoth, if this is the case you are forgiven by Gamavor!

[THOTH]

Let me guess! Love your neighbor…but be careful not to get caught!

Thoth, if this is the case you are forgiven by Gamavor!

Would that be the same if it were - like OJ - killing someone and getting away with it? ...or is stealing somehow a lesser offense?

[Stormig]

Didi you know that church canon, be it Apostolic or Protestant, I don'rt know about the Catholic, bans people (men) with any blemish or any physical diasbility from the priesthood and pastorship. Although the rule has been broken many times, at least in the Protestant case.

Likely not with the Catholics, because I saw a little piece on the life of a Jewish deaf, blind, mute (OK, maybe not that extreme) person of Jewish extraction who wanted to become a priest but was rejected because of his "blemishes" and so instead he converted to Christianity and become a Roman Catholic priest. He went off to places like South Africa and such - pretty crazy. But apparently it's altogether possible.

[gamavor]

Would that be the same if it were - like OJ - killing someone and getting away with it? ...or is stealing somehow a lesser offense?

Would that be the same if it were - like OJ - killing someone and getting away with it? ...or is stealing somehow a lesser offense?

Dude, what happened to your sense of humor!