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#1 Arpa

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Posted 16 July 2006 - 06:40 PM

ՈՒՐԱՐՏԵՐԷՆ?
URARTIAN?

Is it URARTU, ARARTU or ARARTA, URARAT, URURUT or ARARAT?
ՈՒՐԱՐՏՈՒ, ԱՐԱՐՏՈՒ or ԱՐԱՐՏԱ, ՈՒՐԱՐԱՏ, ՈՒՐՈՒՐՏՈՒ, or ԱՐԱՐԱՏ ??
How do we know?
Who says how we read and spell The Urartian language?
It is well known that Urartian script is not IndoEuropean, it is more like Semitic, as the Assyrian, Aramaic, Arabic and Hebrew. It is also no secret that none of the above have enough vowels. Arabic has only three of them Aleph=A, Wow=O/OU and Ya=I/EE. Of course the Aleph is commonly pronounced as A as in “bad” and the Wow is pronounced as V by those who, like the Persians and Turks who cannot produce the W sound. In the Arabic the sounds of the vowels are left to diacritical marks over or under the Alef, or any letter for that. Those diacritical marks are displayed in kindergarten Arabic, consequently they are omitted trusting the reader knows which mark it is. Is Fat-ha, as in short A, Kasra as in short I or Dammeh as in short O/OU?
Having said that, having established that Urartian is rather more like Semitic script, who decides whether it Urartian, Ururtian or Arartian/Araratian?
Why do we call our Homeland the Araratian Highlands, yet we call our predecessors Urartians. The Bible refers to our lands as Ararat. Is it because they had heard the “urartians” call themselves so? Or, is it that Hebrew being one of those deficient Semitic scripts, once again fooled us by substituting A with OU and visa versa?

I had been working on this piece even before qristian wrote the following here
http://hyeforum.com/...mp;#entry174378

QUOTE
FOR GOD'S SAKE ARPA AND ERROR 404 STOP SAYING URARTIAN CASTLE OR "URARRTIAN (PRE-ARMENIAN).
URARTU IS THE SAME AS ARARAT IN ASSIRIAN, WHICH HAS BEEN ENTERED VERY SKILLFULY BY "OUR JEWISH FRIENDS" INTO ALREADY OUR (YOUR) SUBCONCIOUS AND VOCABULARY. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS URARTU, IT IS ARARAT!!!

==
http://hyeforum.com/...=1644&hl=arartu

I fail to see it except that the Armenian "dz" is transcribed as "z" in Turkish as the latter language does not have the sounds of "dz" and "tz". Could it be "dzounkin tak" (under the knee)? Perhaps our friend would be so kind to explain.
Many Armenian words and names of landmarks have been Turkicized. Some still recognizable. The most celebrated of them is so obvious that it amazes me no one has yet publicized it. Many a historian etymologist have fallen flat on their faces in an attempt to explain the origin of the modern name of the sacred mountain of the Armenians. Ararat is obviously a variation on Arartu/Urartu. Masis is well documented, yet Agri Dag defies all. Most take it at its face value to mean "pain", others try to find the meaning of "white/ag". The landmark has witnessed much pain in the past as it still does today yet it still makes no sense. It is so obvious that it derives its name from an Armenian town which even though devastated numerous times by both natural and manmade disasters, the latest of which a powerful earthquake in 1840, still bares witness to its Christian Armenian heritage. The town of Agori/Aghori at the foot of Mt. Ararat, long abandoned, still displays vast fields of Khachkars and other Armenian scripture even today. The Mountain was named for the town and district of Agori, if slightly altered and corrupted.
It is not Agri Dag, it is Agori Ler. Another mountain that has sufferd a similar fat is Musa Ler. It does not mean the Mountain of Moses, as Moses had no interest or access to it, it means the mountain of "musas", i.e. muse and it is Armenian in origin as many a budding poet would climb up to find inspiration from the muses that inhabited in those summits. Abovian climbed Masis in similar quest and was severely persecuted for having desacrated our Sacred Mountain.
Observe the hieroglyphic inscriptions below that are still displayed at the ruins of Erebuni fortress.
http://www.tacentral...buni/urartu.asp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urartu
Urartu
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Urartu at its greatest extent in the time of Sarduris II,
Urartu (Biainili in Urartian) was an ancient kingdom in eastern Anatolia, centered in the mountainous region around Lake Van (present-day Turkey), which existed from about 1000 BC, or earlier, until 585 BC. The name may correspond to the Biblical Ararat.
Urartu was often called The Kingdom of Ararat in many ancient manuscripts and holy writings of different nations. It was believed to be the site of the Tree of Life and was sought after by various kings in that era.
The reason for uncertainty in the names (i.e. Urartu and Ararat) is due to variations in sources. In fact, the written languages at that time employed only consonants and not vowels. So the word itself in various contemporary sources is "RRT", which could be either Ararat, or Urartu, or Uruarti and so on.
The Kingdom included three main tribal groups living within its territory: Nairi, Hay and Armen. The tribal groups living near Lake Van and, in fact, in and around the capital Touchpa (Tushpa) were called "Nairi" (indicating they had fair hair and eyes). The groups to the West in central Anatolia where known as "Armens". The tribal groups to the East-North where referred to as "Hay".
The Kingdom was known as Armenia to the Greeks living in Western Anatolia, possibly due to that fact the contacts they had with Urartu, were through the people calling themselves Armens, or Armenians. So to Greece, and thereafter to the Roman Empire, the country was known as the land of Armens – Armenia.
In the beginning of the 6th century, The Urartian Kingdom fell under pressure from Assyria to the South and nomad attacks from the North, North-West. Although weakend by incursions, the South-Eastern parts where Hays lived remained unmolested. The Hay took over the rule of that part of Urartu’s territory, remained a viable political entity and regained strength under their own name of “the land of Hays” – Hayq, Hayastan. The western territory remained under the control of the Armens, and was known as Armenia, the name by which it came to be known to the rest of the world.
The aforementioned three main tribal groups had similar languages, cultures, and ethnic origins. These similarities enabled Urartian and early Armenian kings to keep their territory intact and facilitated efforts made to expand their holdings. The kingdom grew in size thereafter and eventually divided into two main parts: Greater Armenia and Lesser Armenia.
At its apogee, Urartu stretched from northern Mesopotamia through the southern Caucasus, including parts of present-day Armenia up to Lake Sevan. Archaeological sites within its boundaries include Altintepe, Toprakkale, Patnos and Cavustepe. Urartu fortresses are found in Van, Armavir, Erebuni (present day Yerevan city), Anzaf, Cavustepe and Başkale, as well as Argishtiqinili, Karmir Blour and others.
Observe the Urartuan hieroglyphics;
http://www.simatours...um.html#erebuni


http://www.armeniant...an-alphabet.jpg

Damnit! Curses! Anetsq!Անէծք!! Drat! And Double Drat!! Why can’t I find a site showing the relation or not between the Urartian and Armenia alphabet??!!




Edited by Arpa, 16 July 2006 - 06:59 PM.


#2 Arpa

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Posted 20 July 2006 - 04:30 PM

From above;
QUOTE
Who says how we read and spell The Urartian language?
It is well known that Urartian script is not IndoEuropean, it is more like Semitic, as the Assyrian, Aramaic, Arabic and Hebrew. It is also no secret that none of the above have enough vowels. Arabic has only three of them Aleph=A, Wow=O/OU and Ya=I/EE.

According to Armenian sources the Urartian language along with the Hurrian, belongs in the Nostratic family which includes IE, Semitic, Uralian, Altaic and Dravidian. Over 600 inscriptions in the cuneiform Urartian language have been identified. The translation and interpretation has been dependent with its comparison with Akkadian and Neo-Assyrian. Yet even then the exact pronunciation of those characters is still a matter of debate. It is generally accepted that the Urartian characters have four vowels, A E, I and U, (O is still being debated.), and 16 consonants. Often I and E are interchanged. Some read Argishti as Argishte/Argeshte, and so on.
The article goes on indicating that some 350-400 words have been identified and defines, and it further contends that many native Armenian words found their way into the Urartian lanuage, most being proper personal names, toponyms or names or deities like Astiuzi/Astuats.. And very compelling Artu/art/field. The latter is curious since it is part of Ur-artu. What if it was Ar-artu, “field/land of Ar/Arev/Aram“?
As above, who says exactly what did those so called vowels sound like?
Was it an U, A or even an O?
Was it Urartu, Arartu, Arurtu or Ararta?
As to the name of the Capital Yerevan, there seems to be no dispute about its origin from Erebuni.
Really? Look at the vowels again. Is it A, U or E?
Let us not forget that V and B have been and still are interchangeable like in Vahram/Bahram.
So.
Was it Erebuni, Erevuni, Eroboni, Erabuni, Eravani, Eravuni or Erevani?

Urartian may be one of least studied languages. Is it not time to look into again with a fresh and expanded outlook, before those you-know-who’s establish a link between Urartian and their non-existent language ?

The “uni” ending as in Armenian dynastic names like Artsruni may very well be a pluralizing suffix. It is still evident in Arabic in like “Suri-y-un/SyrianS and Libnani-y-un/Lebanese, both plural in their own turn.
So, does Eerb-uni mean (the house of the, plural) Erebs?

#3 Zartonk

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Posted 20 July 2006 - 05:14 PM

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Was it Erebuni, Erevuni, Eroboni, Erabuni, Eravani, Eravuni or <b>Erevani</b>?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

So wait, WAIT, let me get this straight...

Are you saying that it has always been (Y)Erevan(i) and that the SAME people who baptized the place still exist and continue to occupy it?! <img src="http://hyeforum.com/...DIR#>/ohmy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":o" border="0" alt="ohmy.gif" />

No Armenos..?!

No Er-Er*-Turk...?!! :o

Shocker... :)

(* The sound a certain quadruped creature makes)

Edited by Zartonk, 13 May 2012 - 02:18 PM.


#4 Arpa

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Posted 20 July 2006 - 06:24 PM

QUOTE(Zartonk @ Jul 20 2006, 11:14 PM) View Post
So wait, WAIT, let me get this straight...

Are you saying that it has always been (Y)Erevan(i) and that the SAME people who baptized the place still exist and continue to occupy it?! ohmy.gif

No Armenios..?!

No Er-Er*-Turk...?!! shocking.gif

Shocker... smile.gif

(* The sound a certain quadruped creature makes)

Bari Zartonk qez! smile.gif smile.gif
Good awakening to you.smile.gif smile.gif
You are so right.
Lest this be a rude “awakening” to some, we better hurry and resolve the differences and similarities between Urartian and Armenian, before those “t-Ur-*ish people find links between Ur.......Ur(fa) and Ur(mia).

#5 Arpa

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 12:30 PM

Who has that audio tape ?
How do we know how the Urartians called themselves?
With such an incomplete script, devoid of vowels. How can one tell if it was Urartu, Arartu, Irirtu, Irartu, Ararta, Ororto, or whatever kakartu they called themselves?
Is ther a so-called Rosetta Stone comparing their noIU lanuae with that of the IE Greek, or is it compredto yet another deficient script like that of Assyrian, Aramaic, Arabic and Hebrew.
Shall we go by what those sonaofamoshe,s tell,us, that it was Ararat? They may be millennia behind ,as their bosom buddies have named that Sacred Mountian Aghri Dagh. Little do they know that “aghri” is in fact a turkified corruption of “AGHORI”.
Who will declare that Urartu, Irarti, Ororti,Ararta …. Is in fact none other than Ara-Art, Ara’s Land, Land of Ara?
On August 10 ArmoArmeN Posted this here;;
http://hyeforum.com/...pic=14269&st=20
Note. He cites that the Urartian script was deficient at best and that they, much like the other deficient scripts as Assyrian, Aramaic, Arabic, Hebrew and other semi-idiotitic scripts lacked, and still do enough vowels .
How does one read R-R-T?
Shall we rename our Sacred Mountain RRRTTT?
Or will it be ARRRRRRRT,URRRRT, IRRRRT,ORRRRTT.
Until we et our own paleontologists, not Diakinov or Piatrokovsky, not Davidcohenovsky, but Diakinian and Davidian whose main interest would be our own history at heart, not those of the Russky’s and Moshewitz.. After all, Hayastan is neither Russastan or Hryastan. It is neither the land of Pyatrovsky, not it it is the land of Moshe BenAbram.
Read more about it here;
http://hyeforum.com/...opic=14269&st=0
More power to you Armen!
#ArmoArmeN

The nonsense about Urartu started with Pyatrovski;
For some reason the kingdom of Ararat, was called by Pyatrovski Urartu...in the table it reads the following way:

R-R-T

which stands for

Ar-Ar-At
according to Pyatrovski, it reads Ur-Ar-Tu (he tries to read it the way Assyrians and the Jews would reThe Sumerians, an ancient peoples and one of the first civilizations in the world called Ararat, Arrata. In their great epic poems of Gilgamesh and Arrata, they call of land of their ancestors, the Arratans in the Highlands of Armenia. The Sumerians also in the epic poems describe the Great Flood and the rebirth of life after the terrible deluge that fell from the Highlands of Armenia unto the lands of Mesopotamia and the Fertile Crescent. The Sumerians had a very close connection with the ancestral Land of Ararat and considered it as their ancestral homeland (many historians and archaeologists are convinced that the Sumerians initially lived in Northern Mesopotamia and Armenian Highland).

The Egyptians, too believed that life began from a mountain, surrounded by a vast expanse of water. The Egyptians had since ancient times developed close connections with the people of Ararat. The great pharaohs often married into the noble and royal families of ancient Armenian kingdom of Mittani. Their friendship and cooperation with the Kingdom of Mittani and intimate connections stretched from the Kingdom's period into the Hyksos and Hurrian dynasties (XVI th dynasty) in Egypt from the Armenian Highland. The Holy Bible and the Hebrew scriptures too, tell us of the Great Flood and Noah's Ark. Forty days of the Great Flood, which symbolizes the long period of time of the Flood and constant precipitation (the number forty in ancient civilizations, meant a lot, in Armenian Folklore it even had a significant and symbolic importance). When the downpour of rain stops and the water secedes, Noah descents from upon the Holy Mt. Ararat into the Araratian Valley of Armenia. He advises his three sons too venture from the land of Armenia into all corners of the known world to repopulate and revive the world. Japheth, Noah's oldest son decides to stay with Noah in Armenia and becomes the forefather of the Armenian people. The Armenians since those times have considered Ararat as the Holiest spot in the world, and as a Holy ground have taken the symbol of the Holy Mt. Ararat as the symbol of tenacity and vigor of the Armenian nation.

osephus, a Hebrew Historian of first century AD writes that the Armenian people at the time of his writings still remembered, and knew the place of Noah's Ark. He wrote "the Armenians call that spot the Landing-place, for it was there that the ark came safe to land, and they show the relics of it to this day." Agathangelos, a IV th century AD Armenian Historian, records that the Armenian king Trdat (Tiridates) III Arshakouni (Arsacid) built the monastery of the Virgin Martyr St. Hripsime, from the stones brought from Holy Mt. Ararat, which were considered sacred. Another Armenian Historian, Pavstos Buzand, writes that Archbishop Hakob of Mtsbin in IV th century AD made an expedition or Holy pilgrimage to Noah's Ark, by climbing from the Northeastern part of Mt. Ararat and half way during their journey as the historian writes God, stopped them and told them that no mortal human being can see, or touch the Divine Ark. God instead sends out an Angel with a board from the Ark, which the Angel gives to Archbishop (the board from the Ark to this day is still kept in St. Echmiatsin's Museum of the Mother Church as one of the most precious and holiest relics, along with other priceless objects from the Holy Apostolic Churches 1700 year history). In the XIII th century AD a French traveler (and a noble Frankish knight) named Guillaume de Rubrouck wrote in his diary (Recit De Voyage 1253 - 1255 AD Guillaume de Rubrouck - Ambassadeur de St. Louis), that the Armenians considered Mt. Ararat as a Holy Ground, and they did not climb or get close to the Sacred Mountain, not because of its impregnability, but because of its Holiness and their God-fearing commitment of keeping God's strict restriction of not getting close to the Holy Mount. As one Armenian of that period told d'Rubrouck "no one should climb the mountain, it is the cradle of the world". Indeed, Holy Mt. Ararat is the symbol of Armenia and the Armenian nation and it will remain so eternally with God's Holy Blessing of the Cradle of Civilization, Armenia - Land of Ararat.

Or shall we rename our homeland H-S-T-N/R-M-N-ya?
You don't get it?
Neither do I.
Just pretend that your Mesropian alphabet is devoid of vowels, much like the Urartian, Assyrian, Aramaic, Arabic and Hebrew, and insert your choice of vowels where indicated.
Mind you. Here we are talkng about "Apricots and Armavs/dates/apples and oranges"

Edited by Arpa, 17 August 2006 - 01:05 PM.


#6 Johannes

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Posted 18 August 2006 - 10:37 AM

We are (Armenia and the Armenians) the only heirs of Urartu genetically and culturally. There are many Armenian words in the Urartian language. I remember two of them only
1.-Arsivi (eagle)
2.-Pili (canal)? In Armenian Pelel or Peghel (digging)
There are the hundreds and hundreds of non Indo-European words in the Armenian language that are not clarified until now. Linguists think that those words are may from the Urartu. Like Khndzor (apple) and Zoqanch (mother-in-law). Can you imagine Armenian language without those unexplained words? Of course, you cannot. Although the Armenian language is, an Indo-European, but great number of its words, is non Indo-European. Although the first people (I'll not call them Armenians or Hays) who brought the Indo-European language ferment to the east of Asia (Asia minor, Anatolia), they would not be Armenians as we know the Armenians are now, without melting with different clans in Urartu and around the territory of Urartu.
However, we know that Urartu kingdom itself was not represented by one race. It was something like federal states, and the king was from Biaina.
The same territory of Biaina then called as Vaspouracan (the land of nobles).
Armenia is not Armenia without the all-historical provinces of it. As Armenian language is not Armenian language without the all the Indo-European and non Indo-European components. We cannot disjoin the language science from History and from policy.
The science of Languages allows us to read the unwritten history. For example if we disclose many martial words which has Iranian origin, that means that our relation with historical Iran was gladiatorial, or in pact. When we discover many Aramaic Episcopal words in the Armenian language, this means that our relationship with them was abbatial in addition the literature.
The breeds of urartu, exposure to the worst kinds of assassination during the Armenian Genocide, in the First World War. Finally who rescued, scattered all over the world.


#7 Zartonk

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Posted 23 August 2006 - 12:09 AM

QUOTE
There are many Armenian words in the Urartian language. I remember two of them only... 2.-Pili (canal)? In Armenian Pelel or Peghel (digging)


Iese Ini Pili Agubi.

The above Araratian fragment can be detected upon numerous of the stone set royal inscriptions, declarations and foundations of the Kings of Biaini, scattered throughout the entire range of the Armenian world, from Tushpa to Artekhi (In high probability the most recognized of them being Menua's deed on the outskirts of Tushpa/Van fort city). It concerns their splendid pioneer constructions of proto-pipe-like systems of water transportation, and can be attempted to be understood in translation as "I built that canal" or "I dug that canal" Let us take another look and this time let's build an intuitive comparison with modern Armenian.

Iese - Ies; Yes. (I)

Ini - Eni; Ayn (That)

Pili - Peghel; Porel? (To Dig)

Agubi- Aqua/Auw? (Water)



Iese Ini Pili Agubi -->

Eni Peghetsi Jur@: thus -->

Yes En/Ayn Jrer@ (Jrantsk@/Jrantskner@) Peghestsi.



Iese Ini Pili Agubi=Yes En Poroghn@m Jranstki.


I Dug that waterway.


In my opinion, Johannes, we truly are the "living Araratians", given that the very fabric of our culture is undoubtably more Nairian (if you will) than anything else; a fact that can unfortunately remain hidden to the shallow glance of an average Armenian towards and inwards into his heritage. It should be noted, however, that the only other solitary ethnic psyche in the region, which is that of the Georgians, shares unmistakeable characteristics with the culture of the Araratian kingdom.

Edited by Zartonk, 30 October 2007 - 10:09 PM.


#8 Johannes

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 09:02 AM

It should be noted, however, that the only other solitary ethnic psyche in the region, which is that of the Georgians, shares unmistakable characteristics with the culture of the Araratian kingdom

Unfortunately, I do not know the Georgian language. Nevertheless, let me reply, and tell you what I think.
Armenian people, the Armenia and we must be in good relationship with Georgia and the Georgians, and if you will, we can feel Georgia as our third homeland (because of Ջաւախք Շուլավեր Տփղիս) and the Armenian community there. The Armenian population there must learn the Georgian language, without forgetting the mother tongue, and then be a partner in the administration of the Georgian state. Not all Georgians are Gamsakhurdias. We have good memories with them.
Remember the Queen
Tamara, the Zacharians and our struggle against mongol-tatars invasions.
The problems with them is deeper, we must read our churches history to understand why some provinces of historical Armenia changed her cultural face, like the Tayq (Տայք) region. However, I will let this case for history thread.
As I mentioned above that I do not know the Georgian language, but I know that, this language is not Indo-European.
Georgians cannot be the heirs of Ararat, because they are Caucasian people. By the way, you may ask; who are the Caucasians?
They are who speak Caucasian languages, and the Caucasian languages do not belong no to the indo European languages and nor to the Hurrian languages.
U.S. academicians replaced the "Arian" term with "Caucasian" term, because the term "Arian" remembers us the freakish Nazi period of European history.
Therefore, when I say Georgians are Caucasians I do not mean ever the American term for "Caucasian race".
Therefore, the Urartians are not Caucasians (the meaning of Caucasian, which I mentioned above). The Urartian language is the last dialect of Hurrian languages, and contains many elements from Armenian language, therefore, the Georgian language that belongs to the Caucasian family of languages, absolutely differs from the Indo European family and the hurrian languages, so no one can declare that the Georgian people are the heirs of Urartu.
As for "Haydi" the Urartian god name which you concerned with our national name "Hai". I know that name is "Haldi" or Khaldi, but if you are right, I explain that name as Hai god. Because in the Armenian language "DI" means god. After our Christianization, we began to use the name Astouatz (Աստուած) instead of "DI" or "Dits" for the Christian god, and we use "DI" for the Pagan gods.
Notice! In Latin language for god, they use Dio, In Greek Theo. It was tradition for old nations to call themselves by the name of their gods or their ancestors or their religions.
Jews called themselves Israel (Prophet Jacob’s nickname).
Arabs called themselves Beni Ismael (sons of Ismael), also Armenian manuscripts mentions Arabs as Ismaelatsiq (Իսմայէլացիք), or Hagaratsiq hագարացիք (Hagar or Heger is Abraham’s Egyptian wife, from whom born Ismael).
Long live Armenia

#9 skhara

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 04:03 PM

I don't know if anyone has seen this before? Some claims there are that the Urartian language may be related to Caucasian languages.

http://www.factbites.../Hurro-Urartian

#10 Zartonk

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Posted 06 September 2006 - 07:00 PM

QUOTE
As I mentioned above that I do not know the Georgian language, but I know that, this language is not Indo-European.
Georgians cannot be the heirs of Ararat, because they are Caucasian people.


QUOTE
The Urartian language is the last dialect of Hurrian languages, and contains many elements from Armenian language, therefore, the Georgian language that belongs to the Caucasian family of languages, absolutely differs from the Indo European family and the hurrian languages, so no one can declare that the Georgian people are the heirs of Urartu.





Dear Hovhan,

I believe I should have been a bit more precise in my statement, as I do not mean to declare that the Georgian nation are decendents or heirs of the Araratian kingdom and/or her language, but rather a progeny who has undergone the anthropological impact of Ararat.

My intention was to note that -keeping in mind the scope of Ararat's political expanse, the time in history and the time frame it's duration - there is doubtless an imprint and an influence within and upon the cultural existence of the Georgian nations, and to vaguely compare, in the same manor that the Mesopotamians bestowed some of their ways to us. (Due to the anitiquity of this relationship and the position of the southern Armenia in the springing of the Armenian people, however, such shared features between us and our Southern neighbors begin to take on the looks of common foundation rather than exchange; but again, lt's leave that for a proper topic.) The close proximity of the Hurrians and other Proto-Armenian tribes to the inhabitants of the greater Caucasus is certain to have brought along new ways to the lifestyles of both.

I am also well aware of the distinction between the general family of Caucasian languages and the Indo-European phylogenetic language unit. Hurrian was indeed not Indo-European, nor was it a Kartvelian or North Caucasian tounge, yet a number of scholars have demonstrated by studying modern Georgian the possible relation between Hurrian -especially late Hurrian, which ties stongly with Ararat- and the languages of the Caucasus, with some even stepping one foot further ahead and tracing the roots of the two back to the debated and scepticized Alarodian family. I also must say here that quite honestly, I have only begun to venture into this theory and have only heard the claim in summary. (I really hope to begin learning more about the subject and with increased fervor.)

Again, there is no doubt that Georgian culture is amongst the most distinct and unique in all of the world. So by commenting I did not wish to make Georgia a creation of Ararat and thus bring them under the cultural "wing" of Armenia. I only aim to explore the collateral natures of the many sociological groups who sculpted the Armenian people.


And as for the name Hye, my opinion is that the better accepted Hayassa hypothesis is a better possibility of Hye's oigin, though Khaldi should deeper be delved.

*Thanks by the way for the very interesting DI explanation, and do I love your conclusion:

QUOTE
Long live Armenia

Edited by Zartonk, 06 September 2006 - 07:01 PM.


#11 Arpa

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 07:09 PM

Dear all. I hope you would forgive me if I move to another thread since this thread was meant to be a so.... Here is what we'll do Take Proud's post over and see what we are talking about
“Ararat is Hebrew? I thought it was RRT and not Ararat.”

Edited by Arpa, 24 January 2007 - 07:32 PM.


#12 Arpa

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 07:22 PM

I had already touched upon the R-R-T above..
Now let’s play a game. After all that was said about the inadequate quasi semitic cuneiform Urartian(?) script, if one were one of the first deciphering, assuming that there really is no Rosetta Stone so to speak, how would one, depending on what those letters are called in their language, read those three letters.
R R T
If one were an Armenian, to them it would it would be either RE RE TYUN , or RA RA THO, or RE RA DA , depending on whether one is WA or an EA.
An English would called the letters AR AR TEE, a French would read them as ER ER TE.
I know we have people here who know other languages. How would an Arab read them? How would a Persian read them? How would a German read them? How would a Russian read them?
Forgive me for repeating myself. I want to make it clear that we are talking what we call those letters when we are reciting the alphabet. I.e we pronounce the letter A as EY (Aye to a down underer smile.gif, B as Bee etc.

Let’s have some fun.

Edited by Arpa, 24 January 2007 - 07:41 PM.


#13 Johannes

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Posted 25 January 2007 - 02:10 AM

Հրաչեայ Աճառեան, «Հայոց լեզուի պատմութիւն» «Ա. Մաս» հրատարակ. 1940 -ին

«Թէեւ մեզ ի սպառ անծանօթ են խալդիների եւ կովկասեան ազգութիւնների ցեղակցական ու լեզուական յարաբերանքը, բայց անկարելի է չ'ընդունել, որ նրանց բազմադարեան հարեւանութիւնը ազդաց լինի միմիանց լեզուի վրայ: Զանազան կողմերից անշուշտ եղել են փոխառութիւններ: Այսպէս՝ հիւսիսային կովկասեաններից փոխառութիւններ անցած կը լինեն անշուշտ հարաւային կովկասեաններին (քարթվվելական) եւ փոխադարձաբար. նոյնպէս խալդիների լեզուից զանազան փոխառութիւններ անցած կը լինեն թէ հիւսիսային եւ թէ հարաւային կովկասեաններին եւ փոխադարձաբար: Այսպէս օրինակ՝ մենք գիտենք, որ մշակ բառը գտնւում է թէ հիւսիսային եւ թէ հարաւային կովկասեանների մէջ, ուստի անշուշտ մի փոխառու կողմ կայ: Եթէ այդպէս է, ուրեմն մեր (հայերէնի) 59 կովկասեան փոխառութիւնների գոնէ մի մասը կարող է մեզ հասած լինել անուղղակի ճանապարհով, այսինքն կովկասեաններից անցած նախ խալդիներին եւ խալդիներից էլ հայերէնի՝ իբրեւ խալդիական բառ.-կամ կարող է նաեւ ընդհակառակը՝ խալդերէն մի բառ անցած լինել կովկասեաններին եւ յետոյ նրանցից անցած հայերէնին.- եւ կամ վէրջապէս խալդերէն մը բառ մի կողմից անցած կովկասեաններին եւ միւս կողմից հայերին, այնպէս որ այսօր հայերէնն ու կովկասեանները (խօսքը այդ 59 բառերի մասին է, Հով) իրար նման են դուրս գալիս. մինչդեռ իրապէս կապ չ'կայ նրանց մէջ, եւ կովկասեան փոխառութիւն համարուած այդ բառերը իսկի կովկասեան էլ չեն, այլ խալդիական (Աճառեանը, ուրարտերէն լեզուն խալդիերէն կը կոչէ, Հով): Այս վէրջին ենթադրութիւնը երբեմն ակներեւ է դառնում. Օրինակ՝ հայերէն գաղատոս (որմնադիր) հազուագիւտ բառը՝ որ բնաւ հայերէն բառի կերպարանք չունի, կայ նաեւ վրացերէնի մէջ գալատոզի, կալատոզի ձեւով եւ թուշերէնի մէջ կալտազ ձեւով: Արդ՝ այդ բառը, ինչպէս հայկական չի երեւում, նոյնպէս ընդհանուր վրացական էլ չէ եւ վրացական արմատներով էլ չի մեկնւում. Ուստի հաւանական է, որ խալդերէն լինի եւ շինարար խալդիներից անցած լինի թէ հայոց եւ թէ վրաց: Նոյնպէս հայերէն ծորել (հոսիլ, քամուել) բառը, որ միաժամանակ կայ ուտիացոց մէջ ծորեսուն եւ վրաց մէջ ծուրվա ձեւով, բայց չի գտնւում ոչ մի ուրիշ կովկասեան լեզուի մէջ, հաւանաբար խալդիական է: Կարելի է կարծել, որ յատկապէս մշակութային արժէք ներկայացնող փոխառութիւնները, որ մենք մինչեւ այժմ կովկասեան էինք համարում, իրապէս խալդերէն բառեր են թէ հայերէնի եւ թէ կովկասեանների մէջ թափանցած:»

Նոյն գրքի մէջ, հայերէնի վրայ ուրարտերէնի ազեցութեան մասին խօսելիս՝

«Խալդերէնի ազդեցութիւնը անուրանալի էհայերէնի վրայ: Հայերէնը փոխ է առել խալդերէնից ոչ միայն սովորական բառամթերքի մի կարեւոր մասը, այլ եւ իր անձնական յատուկ անունների մի մասը եւ տեղական անունների ամէնախոշոր մասը: Սխալ չի լինի ասել, որ եթէ խալդիական արիւնը շարունակում է ապրել մեր արեան մէջ եւ խալդիական երկիրը շարունակում է իր գոյութիւնը Հայաստանում, նոյնպէս եւ խալդիերէնը (ուրարտերէնը) շարունակում է ապրել հայերէն լեզուի ծալքերում, հայկական շրթունքների վրայ:»



#14 Arpa

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Posted 25 January 2007 - 11:33 AM

QUOTE(Arpa @ Jan 25 2007, 01:22 AM) View Post

====
a French would read them as ER ER TE.
===
Let’s have some fun.

OK! I lied. smile.gif
Can you forgive me?
I must confess, and ask for forgiveness before MosJan sends a hunting expedition after me. wink.gif
Above I said the French would have read it as RE RE TE. I had forgotten about MosJan, our French expert who would write “XAROR” to mean grape as in “khaghogh”. Therefore, if our expert of the French language were the first to pronounce R-R-T we would have ]b]GHE-GHE-TE[/b].
So, forget all that gobbledygook about Urartu, Ururtu, Ururti, Irirti, Ororto, Ararta, ARARAT….
It is ...

GHEGHETE.

biggrin.gif tongue.gif wink.gif



#15 Zartonk

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Posted 25 January 2007 - 11:41 AM

Gheghet Kingdom, Civilization, Architecture?

So does that make us Gheghetién?

smile.gif

Edited by Zartonk, 06 June 2008 - 10:36 AM.


#16 Arpa

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Posted 25 January 2007 - 11:47 AM

QUOTE(Zartonk @ Jan 25 2007, 05:41 PM) View Post

Gheghet Kingdom, Civilization, Architecture ey?

So does that make us Gheghetién?

smile.gif

Wow!
I am floored!
Very good Zartonk.
Finally. Soemone gets the spirit of the issue.
biggrin.gif

#17 Arpa

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Posted 25 January 2007 - 12:46 PM

What if the first decipherer of those characters; R R T . Remember? Once again we are assuming there were no vowels, just consonants.
Were it a Greek? Would they sound it as RHO-RHO-TAU?
If so, then “Urartu” would have been RO-RO-TAU.
Am I getting my message across?
In the Armenian we call the letter R Re or Ra. The English recite it as AR, the French recite it RE or GHE.
What if that archeological linguist were a Turk.
Would they have read R-R-T as ER-ER-T(urk)?**
**Note , E in the Turkish sound like A as in BAD.


#18 Arpa

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Posted 29 March 2007 - 03:53 AM

Maral you’re gonna like this, or maybe not. biggrin.gif
Why can’t I find any other reference other than that damned Book of Lies?
Ur, the fabled origin of that idiot Abraham is in fact a variation of “HUR”=krak=fire”
Why was the town called “UR/HUR/FIRE”? Is it like naming that other place Aterbatakan/Fireland/Azerbaijan/” based on the petroleum fed flaming fields?
Ur/Hur/Huri. //
How is your firebrand Huri of a daughter? smile.gif
Do you see how those cursed Ebrews/Hebrews have corrupted, bastardized the entire history of Mankind to fit their own agenda?
Also consider the likes of Urmia and Urfa//Urha//Edessa.
I was searching fo Urartu in a reference book that is rife with Biblical Hebrew stuff. No refernce to Urartu but this about “ur”.
http://net.bible.org...ary.php?word=Ur
Strongs #0218: rwa 'Uwr
Ur = "flame"

1) city in southern Babylonia, city of the Chaldeans, centre of
moon worship, home of Abraham's father, Terah, and departure
point for the Abraham's migration to Mesopotamia and Canaan
218 'Uwr oor


This site is interesting. One will see many Armenian names meaning “fire” .
http://www.20000-nam...s_hot_names.htm

(20000-NAMES.COM: Fire Names, Hot Names, page 1 of 1--meaning ...
PLAMEN: Bulgarian name derived from the Slavic element plam, meaning "fire, flame." PYRRHUS: "Flame-like." Latin form of Greek Pyrros, myth name of a son ...
www.20000-names.com/fire_names_hot_names.htm - 77k - Cached - Similar pages)
http://hyeforum.com/...;hl=parturition
Na hur her uner,
Bots uner morus,
Ev achkunqn eyin aregakunq

We know that many Armenian words have variants with or without the initial H. Words like “haraj/arajin”(forward/first), “haght/Aghtamar”(victorious), “hajogh/aj”(successful/right side) etc. What if we reverse the process and assume that the name of Urartu, a land dominated by the fire from the Volcano of Masis was originally Hurartu/Հուրարտու? i.e the field/land of fire?
Yes, Ajarian does in fact invoke the Hebrew “ur/hour” however he all but dismiss it to be the origin of the Armenian “hur/fire” instead dwelling on the Sanskrit “puro/pyrro”. Of course, we know that the latter is the origin of the Greek “pyrro” and the Latin “pyrrus”, from where the English “fire”, the German “feur”, the French “feu” and the Italian “fuoco” come, not to forget the Arabic “har/hot” and “hariq/fire”.
Of course, we know that Urartu did not have flaming petroleum fields like Atur-ba-takan, nor did it have flaming fields of Ur/Basra, but still, it was a land of volcanic/Masis fire.
Yes,we also know that the jury is still out figuring if it in fact was Urartu, Arartu, Ararta…..
Oh, heck, you play with the vowels A U I E and O back and forth.

Is that why Urartu/Hurartu” was named the “Land of Fire”?

Edited by Zartonk, 21 November 2007 - 09:02 PM.


#19 Johannes

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Posted 29 March 2007 - 04:18 AM

Պատմաբան Լէոն, տեղ մը կարծիք կը յայտնէ, իբր Ուրարտեան անունները գաղթած են Հայաստանի հարաւէն Հայաստանի հիւսիս:
Այսպէս՝ Արարադ - Արարատ, Նեխ Մասիւք (Սիփան)- Մասիս:
Սիրելի Արփա, ձեր տրամաբանքը շարունակելով արձանագրենք.
Այրարատ-Այրող արտ կամ՝ տղամարդկանց արտ:
Գիտէք Այրարատը Մեծ Հայքի կեդրոնը գտնւող մեծ նահանգ էր, նախքան լեռան անուն ըլլալը:


#20 Arpa

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Posted 29 March 2007 - 05:40 AM

QUOTE(Johannes @ Mar 29 2007, 10:18 AM) View Post

Պատմաբան Լէոն, տեղ մը կարծիք կը յայտնէ, իբր Ուրարտեան անունները գաղթած են Հայաստանի հարաւէն Հայաստանի հիւսիս:
Այսպէս՝ Արարադ - Արարատ, Նեխ Մասիւք (Սիփան)- Մասիս:
Սիրելի Արփա, ձեր տրամաբանքը շարունակելով արձանագրենք.
Այրարատ-Այրող արտ կամ՝ տղամարդկանց արտ:
Գիտէք Այրարատը Մեծ Հայքի կեդրոնը գտնւող մեծ նահանգ էր, նախքան լեռան անուն ըլլալը:


Ապրես դու իմ Հալէպցի…. “Տուր ինձ ձեռքըդ, որ մրրկավ էինք զատուած” Կիլիկեցի եղբայր: Եւ մենք գիտենք թէ այդ մրրիկը որտեղէն ծագեց: Սրդիոք պիտի հարցնել այդ Պարթեւ Գրիգորին?
Գուցէ մենք սատար դառնանք որ մեր այսպէս կոչուած լէզուաբանները եւ պատմագէտները զարթնին եւ տեսնէն թէ այդ նախնական primitive եւ վայրի savage լեզուները ինչպէս, Սեմականը, Ասորականը եւլն ձայնավոր գիրեր չունին եւ առանց նրանց վերեւ ու նէրքեւ- ի նշաններով սոյն ձայնավորները կարող են կարդացուիլ իբր Ա, Ո, Օ, ՈՒ, Ի կամ Է
Ուրեմն. Ով է ասել թէ Ուրատու- ն պիտի կարդացուի ՈՒՐԱՐՏՈՒ, ՕՐՕՐՏՕ, ԻՐԻՐԴՒ կամ ԱՐԱՐՏԱ եւայլն.???
Ինչպէս ասել եմ վերեւ: Արդիոք դա Եբրայեցիները որ մեր երկիրը կոչել են Արարատ իսկապէս ձայնավոր լսել են թէ Ուրարտացիներըը ինչպէս կոչէին իրանց երկիրը ?

Edited by Arpa, 29 March 2007 - 06:52 AM.





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