63 replies to this topic

[Ashot]

Translit jan, there is two ways to do it!!!

You can either do the & key which will give the letter "symbol" - և or you can do the e+w which is ե+ւ եւ!!!

[Translit]

translit,

some things are not taken into consideration... please try to write this sentance in latin to convert to armenian...

անդորր՝ իմ դժվարին պահի միակ փրկիչը...

Dear Harut,

I converted the sentence to Latin (Eastern way) and from that to Armenian again.

Before: անդորր՝ իմ դժվարին պահի միակ փրկիչը...
To Latin: andvorr՝ im dzhvarin pahi miak p'rkichy'...
After: անդոռ՝ իմ ձհվարին պահի միակ փրկիցհը...

There are 3 letter collisions:
1) "րր" -> "rr" -> "ռ"
This error will disappear when we adapt the Eastern Armenian mapping from this forum, where the letter "ռ" transliterated as Latin "r'" (with apostrophe). Still this can appear in the Western Armenian version, where the "ռ" is still transliterated as "rr". Do you think it's reasonable to transliterate "ռ" as "r'" for both Eastern and Western? To the creators of the cureent forum transliteration: What was the reason to make the transliterations of "ռ" different for two dialects?
2) "դժ" -> "dzh" -> "ձհ"
This error should also disappear when we adapt the transliteration from this forum. Then "դժ" will become "djh" (Eastern) and "tzh" (Western) which both are reverse translatable to "դժ".
3) "չ" -> "ch" -> "ցհ"
I don't have any solution right now for this type of collision.

Thank you a lot Harut for pointing out this case. Such things are difficult to find and I'll happy to hear more of them to continuously polish the letter mapping.

[Translit]

Translit jan, there is two ways to do it!!!

You can either do the & key which will give the letter "symbol" - և or you can do the e+w which is ե+ւ եւ!!!

Dear Ashot,

very elegant solution. I actually discovered that the current version of our transliterator does "e" + "w" -> "և" conversion.
What would you say if we change transliteration of "և" to "ew" and "&"? Thus, whether the visitor types "ew" or "&" he'll get "և". But when transliterated from Armenian to Latin then "և" will be always converted as "ew" rather than "&".

[Ashot]

My suggestion is keep both othe possibilites open!!! just the way I wrote it!!! EW - եւ and the & - և

[Translit]

My suggestion is keep both othe possibilites open!!! just the way I wrote it!!! EW - եւ and the & - և

Yes, this is what I was saying

[Arpa]

CAN WE ALL PLEASE GET TOGETHER??!!
From the one end of the spectrum ABKHAZAHAYER to ZULUHAYER**, and in between Russahayer, Parskahayer, Arabahayer, Fransahayer, Amerikahayer,... and Aramarzt Forbid... Furkahayer, and get together as HAY, not this or that ...HAY?
Among many, one will see that some us spell Vahan's name as Derian, Terian, Teryan Տերյան, Տէրյան, Տէրեան... and so on, and ad infintum, ad nauseam!
What is his surname? Տէրեան, Դերյան blah, blah, blah!!!
Note that Տերյան is transliterated as if his name was TerJan/ՏերՃան/ՏէրՃան.
Yes, Yes. We know that the Armenian Յ is known as J in German, as in Johannes/Yohannes, and Slavic. Yet, we are neither German nor Slavic. Our surnames are spelled with "ԵԱՆ/EAN" as in "mediterran-EAN.
Even if some of us will transliterate it as "IAN", that is from the "Ital-IAN" influence. ԻՏԱԼ -Ի- ԱՆ.
Please note that here we are talking about TRANSLITERATION into LATIN and or SLAVIC, not how things are spelled in ARMENIAN.
OH NO!
YES WE ARE!
I.e. If Vahan's surname is spelled ՏԵՐ-Յ-ԱՆ , is that how he spelled his name in 1907, 20 yers before abegh-tzpegh-YAN? Then why don't we transliterate it as
Ter-J-an!!??
**Please don't pretend to be Anahid, aka Takoush to ask us what a "zuluhay" is. It is th last in the gamut of the Latin alphabet that begins with AB as in Abkhazia and ends in "zulu". And there are Armenians spread all over, from Abkhazia to Albania to (Nor, New) Zelanda/Zealand to Zululand:P
Allright! do you want to see it in Armenian? Then how about Աբխսզեա to Քուէյտ/Ֆրանսա?

Edited by Arpa, 28 April 2008 - 11:32 AM.

[Harut]

Dear Harut,

I converted the sentence to Latin (Eastern way) and from that to Armenian again.

Before: անդորր՝ իմ դժվարին պահի միակ փրկիչը...
To Latin: andvorr՝ im dzhvarin pahi miak p'rkichy'...
After: անդոռ՝ իմ ձհվարին պահի միակ փրկիցհը...

i know... that's why i asked you to try it, so you'll notice some of the outstanding issues...

There are 3 letter collisions:
1) "րր" -> "rr" -> "ռ"
This error will disappear when we adapt the Eastern Armenian mapping from this forum, where the letter "ռ" transliterated as Latin "r'" (with apostrophe). Still this can appear in the Western Armenian version, where the "ռ" is still transliterated as "rr". Do you think it's reasonable to transliterate "ռ" as "r'" for both Eastern and Western? To the creators of the cureent forum transliteration: What was the reason to make the transliterations of "ռ" different for two dialects?

as far as hyeforum translit is concerned, it is an obvious error on our end for the WA portion of it... the same problem happens here when you try to create "անդորր" in latin... i don't see any issue with representing "Ռ" by "R'" in both dialects...

2) "դժ" -> "dzh" -> "ձհ"
This error should also disappear when we adapt the transliteration from this forum. Then "դժ" will become "djh" (Eastern) and "tzh" (Western) which both are reverse translatable to "դժ".

every time you use a double letter to represent one letter in armenian, you have to take in concideration the possiblities of these letters interacting with their neighboring letters... so, it is wise to try to minizie the use of double letters, because as you saw above, you may end up with funny expressions with words that never crossed your mind... i'd suggest to search in an armenian dictionary for words that may have letters residing next to each for your double-letter letters... for example, see if there are any words in armenian that may have "ՋՀ" next to each other before using the "JH" for "Ջ"...

3) "չ" -> "ch" -> "ցհ"
I don't have any solution right now for this type of collision.

we used the same mapping in hyeforum for these letters... however, we made an assumption that there are no words that require "ՑՀ" to be next to each other... so all "CH" will result in "Չ"...

Thank you a lot Harut for pointing out this case. Such things are difficult to find and I'll happy to hear more of them to continuously polish the letter mapping.

յու ար ուելքոմ...

Edited by Harut, 28 April 2008 - 06:05 PM.

[Harut]

btw, the availability of unicode on almost all os's these days, makes these kinds of projects absolete, i think...

[Harut]

btw2, who owns this thing?

Attached Files

•  nairi.JPG   50.3KB   15 downloads

[Arpa]

Dear Harut,

I converted the sentence to Latin (Eastern way) and from that to Armenian again.

What the hell does "eastern way" mean?
How many Armenian languages are there?
Do I, a westrn Armenian read and undrstand Sevak and Charents? Do you read and Understand Varuzhan and Siamanto?
Then,
WHAT IS THE QUESTION?
IS IT ABOUT THOSE WHO CAN'T READ THE MESROPIAN AYB BEN GIM Ա Բ Գ, and rather it be written int the Cyrillic or Latin?

Edited by Arpa, 28 April 2008 - 08:33 PM.

[Translit]

Harut, at first let me thank you for participation. Your comments are very useful and help us to improve the service dramatically.

as far as hyeforum translit is concerned, it is an obvious error on our end for the WA portion of it... the same problem happens here when you try to create "անդորր" in latin... i don't see any issue with representing "Ռ" by "R'" in both dialects...

OK, so we'll adopt the "R'" variant for both dialects.

every time you use a double letter to represent one letter in armenian, you have to take in concideration the possiblities of these letters interacting with their neighboring letters... so, it is wise to try to minizie the use of double letters, because as you saw above, you may end up with funny expressions with words that never crossed your mind... i'd suggest to search in an armenian dictionary for words that may have letters residing next to each for your double-letter letters... for example, see if there are any words in armenian that may have "ՋՀ" next to each other before using the "JH" for "Ջ"...

very nice and clear point. On our side we are also trying to utilize at first all single Latin letters and to avoid where possible all triple-letter-combinations.

we used the same mapping in hyeforum for these letters... however, we made an assumption that there are no words that require "ՑՀ" to be next to each other... so all "CH" will result in "Չ"...

Harut, I'll take a closer look at this exact case. I think we can apply your idea here too.

btw, the availability of unicode on almost all os's these days, makes these kinds of projects absolete, i think...

Well, the project may solve several problems. Partially it might replace a lack of Armenian keyboard. I don't see how an Unicode-capable PC can solve this problem. Correct me please if I'm wrong.

[Translit]

What the hell does "eastern way" mean?

Dear Arpa, I mean the Eastern Armenian dialect.

[Translit]

Finally we got our hands on the Armenian transliteration table. Below is the letter/symbol mapping which is used on the Armenian transliteration site:

CODE

ARM EAST WEST
Ա ա a a
Բ բ b p
Գ գ g k
Դ դ d t
Ե ե e e
Զ զ z z
Է է e' e'
Ը ը y' y
Թ թ t' t'
Ժ ժ jh zh
Ի ի I I
Լ լ l l
Խ խ x x
Ծ ծ c' dz
Կ կ k g
Հ հ h h
Ձ ձ d' tz
Ղ ղ gh gh
Ճ ճ tw j
Մ մ m m
Յ յ y h'
Ն ն n n
Շ շ sh sh
Ո ո o o'
Չ չ ch ch
Պ պ p b
Ջ ջ j ch'
Ռ ռ r' r'
Ս ս s s
Վ վ v v
Տ տ t d
Ր ր r r
Ց ց c c
Ւ ւ w w
Փ փ p' p'
Ք ք q q
Օ օ o' o
Ֆ ֆ f f
ՈՒ ու u u
և & &

We tried to find a compromise between many variations of Armenian transliterations. The decisions were based mainly on the following factors:
1) All Latin symbols must be available on a standard English keyboard (thus symbols like "ə", "ç" were avoided)
2) We tried to avoid all triple-letter Latin combinations and use apostrophe in combinations rather than another latin letter where possible (e.g. _ch'_ instead of _tch_ for "Ջ ջ")
3) Try to match Armenian letters phonetically to Latin combinations
4) Try to utilize all 26 single Latin letters to one Armenian letter each.
5) Try to keep similar transliteration for Eastern and Western Armenian where possible.

Still I have few questions to the forum members. As you see from the table above the letters "Ո ո" and "Օ օ" have different transliterations for Eastern and Western Armenian. Does it make sense in this case? I would rather make the transliteration of these letters similar for both dialects if they phonetically sound similar in both dialects.

Edited by Translit, 07 May 2008 - 08:16 AM.

[Harut]

Finally we got our hands on the Armenian transliteration table. Below is the letter/symbol mapping which is used on the Armenian transliteration site:

CODE

ARM EAST WEST
Ա ա a a
Բ բ b p
Գ գ g k
Դ դ d t
Ե ե e e
Զ զ z z
Է է e' e'
Ը ը y' y
Թ թ t' t'
Ժ ժ jh zh
Ի ի I I
Լ լ l l
Խ խ x x
Ծ ծ c' dz
Կ կ k g
Հ հ h h
Ձ ձ d' tz
Ղ ղ gh gh
Ճ ճ tw j
Մ մ m m
Յ յ y h'
Ն ն n n
Շ շ sh sh
Ո ո o o'
Չ չ ch ch
Պ պ p b
Ջ ջ j ch'
Ռ ռ r' r'
Ս ս s s
Վ վ v v
Տ տ t d
Ր ր r r
Ց ց c c
Ւ ւ w w
Փ փ p' p'
Ք ք q q
Օ օ o' o
Ֆ ֆ f f
ՈՒ ու u u
և & &

We tried to find a compromise between many variations of Armenian transliterations. The decisions were based mainly on the following factors:
1) All Latin symbols must be available on a standard English keyboard (thus symbols like "ə", "ç" were avoided)
2) We tried to avoid all triple-letter Latin combinations and use apostrophe in combinations rather than another latin letter where possible (e.g. _ch'_ instead of _tch_ for "Ջ ջ")
3) Try to match Armenian letters phonetically to Latin combinations
4) Try to utilize all 26 single Latin letters to one Armenian letter each.
5) Try to keep similar transliteration for Eastern and Western Armenian where possible.

Still I have few questions to the forum members. As you see from the table above the letters "Ո ո" and "Օ օ" have different transliterations for Eastern and Western Armenian. Does it make sense in this case? I would rather make the transliteration of these letters similar for both dialects if they phonetically sound similar in both dialects.

convert ՏԶՏԶԱԼ or ՃԱՆՃԻ ՏԶԶՈՑ to WA and back...

also try this to WA and back...
զհաց մեր հանապազորդ
տուր մեզ այսօր։

or this to EA and back...
-Ունեմ, ունեմ, չոբան ախպեր,
Ամանըդ ու՞ր է, ամանըդ բեր,
Ինչ տեղից որ ինքդ կուզես,
Էս սհաթին քաշեմ տամ քեզ:

Edited by Harut, 07 May 2008 - 10:15 PM.

[Harut]

try this to WA and back...
ՏԺՎԺԻԿ

[Arpa]

Can we please stop this nonsense of "translit" by a single pwrson who may not know the Mesropian Armenian Language and leave it to professional linguists. And I mean "linguists" in the plural sense.
When will we stop creating 10 million systems for a people whose less than 3 million speak the language?
What "translit" are we talking about? What the hell does "eastern", "western", "phonetic" mean? Are we tallking about "latin" or "cyrillic" translit?
Don you remember? Pleaae search and find when I cited the case wne some of us use "XAXOX" to mean ԽԱՂՈՂ asked which X=Խ and which X =Ղ. And then a few days later AVO used "XAXAX" to mean ԽԱՂԱՂ!!!
Which is which? Does X mean Խ or Ղ?
Can we please leave this to "committe" of linguists? Where are they? Rather than create "committes" of one Ukraino-russo, furkish**, Arabic, Anglo Franko-Latin, whose knowledge of the Arnenian may be limoted to a "committe" of ONE?
Can we forget this "eastern" " western", Mesropian, furko-Russo-Slavo-Sovieto- Abegho-aghb-ian stuff and get to the basics? Like Ա =A as in Alpha, Բ= B as in Beta Գ =G as in Gamma and Դ equals D as in Delta!!!
Will you guys pleaae learn Armenian? I don't mean, russo, slavo, arabo /furko/parso, ukraino.
** Note that Ajarian was very much influenced by his furkish istambolian birth where his first and "mother tingue" was furkish.

Edited by Arpa, 08 May 2008 - 11:02 AM.

[Twilight Bark]

Can we please stop this nonsense of "translit" by a single pwrson who may not know the Mesropian Armenian Language and leave it to professional linguists. And I mean "linguists" in the plural sense.
When will we stop creating 10 million systems for a people whose less than 3 million speak the language?
What "translit" are we talking about? What the hell does "eastern", "western", "phonetic" mean? Are we tallking about "latin" or "cyrillic" translit?
Don you remember? Pleaae search and find when I cited the case wne some of us use "XAXOX" to mean ԽԱՂՈՂ asked which X=Խ and which X =Ղ. And then a few days later AVO used "XAXAX" to mean ԽԱՂԱՂ!!!
Which is which? Does X mean Խ or Ղ?
Can we please leave this to "committe" of linguists? Where are they? Rather than create "committes" of one Ukraino-russo, furkish**, Arabic, Anglo Franko-Latin, whose knowledge of the Arnenian may be limoted to a "committe" of ONE?
Can we forget this "eastern" " western", Mesropian, furko-Russo-Slavo-Sovieto- Abegho-aghb-ian stuff and get to the basics? Like Ա =A as in Alpha, Բ= B as in Beta Գ =G as in Gamma and Դ equals D as in Delta!!!
Will you guys pleaae learn Armenian? I don't mean, russo, slavo, arabo /furko/parso, ukraino.
** Note that Ajarian was very much influenced by his furkish istambolian birth where his first and "mother tingue" was furkish.

Sound shifts, or lost sounds are quite normal in the evolution of dialects. For all we know Western Armenian phonetics might have been actually around when Mesrob developed the alphabet. He might simply have used the dialect that he was familiar with. As for top-to-bottom dictating of language, only "dirigiste" states such as France and Turkey have such policies. More successful cultures let the users of the language converge on an ever-evolving "standard". The latter is more freedom-oriented, and thus desirable.

I respect your energy in learning and disseminating nuggets of information about the Armenian language. However, I have to finally register an objection to your hatred of anything to do with Western Armenian. You are obviously embarrassed, if not disdainful, of being Western Armenian. In that sense, you remind me of Baliozian, your favorite "thinker", who also mixes in unreasonable, blatanly unfair statements into a soup of truisms. In your self-hatred, and a very very Turkish way of looking at things, you two are like two sides of the same coin.

I am not happy with Istanbul Armenians either, and I know that the Western Armenian has lost its intellectual tradition after the genocide, and is no longer a properly cultivated flavor of Armenian. But then, I am not particularly happy with the "vulgar" version of any flavor of Armenian, be it the language or the culture. But there is no point in cursing at the speakers of an established dialect with a literary tradition to change the way they pronounce their own names for example, and how they transliterate them. Ayb-ben-gim is Ayp-pen-kim in Western Armenian, and that's settled. It's going to be "settled" more permanently when the last speaker/writer of that dialect dies in some alien land. Until then, Turkish style "There are no Western Armenians, and there is no Western Armenian dialect, they are just Confused Armenians, and they speak Confused Armenian", or some such heavy-handed nonsense is unhelpful. A true Armenian cultural and linguistic unity will not be achieved by cursing, insulting, belittling, and bullying. We don't have the physical setup for that even if that repugnant solution were desirable.

I know that you mean well, and that you are urging Armenians to embrace the dialect of the only state we have. However, the way you are going about it is akin to a cave man dragging a woman by her hair to conduct the business of procreation, as opposed to wooing her with flowers and compliments. As I said above, Armenia is not in a position to dictate anything to anyone. If they piss Western Armenians off, they will simply assimilate where they are, thank you very much. And the rare Western Armenian individual that has arrived at your position on the matter will not get anywhere by acting as the enforcer of the culture of a state that doesn't actually bother to attract the audience in question. In any case, learning proper Western Armenian, the language of their parents and their institutions, takes them quite close to the official language anyway, notwithstanding a month or two of adjustment period when and if necessary. In an ideal world, the Armenian state would encourage immigration of Western Armenians, and actually help them preserve their dialect within Armenia, as a local, vibrant dialect within Armenia, rather than the sad, dying dialect of a dying breed. If we are going to act or think like Turks, there is no point in preserving anything, Western or Eastern.

[Twilight Bark]

Still I have few questions to the forum members. As you see from the table above the letters "Ո ո" and "Օ օ" have different transliterations for Eastern and Western Armenian. Does it make sense in this case? I would rather make the transliteration of these letters similar for both dialects if they phonetically sound similar in both dialects.

I may be partly to blame for the discrepancy, although it was not intentional. Although "Ո ո", being the only "O" sound before the introduction of "Օ օ" later, as it stands today, it is not an unambiguous "O" sound. At the beginning of words, it is pronounced "Vo". To my mind, pronouncing the "Vo" at the beginning of a word as "O" sounds colloquial, at least in WA. That's why, to me, "Ո" is the "funny O", and "Օ" is the "straightforward, unambiguous O".

As for the transliteration errors, when you go back and forth using a single table for both directions, they are bound to happen as long as multiple characters are used when such character combinations also occur naturally without the implied phonetics. The most satisfactory method is to use different tables for the "forward" and "backward" directions. That way, you can use some exotic character like "`" (backquote) that rarely if ever gets used in a natural language setting, or a run-of-the-mill everyday computer usage, except in programming, to signal a character combination that is meant to produce a specific letter in Armenian. From Armenian to English, you just use whatever character combination produces the closest sound without worrying about what would happen if you fed it back to the same table (since you won't be using the same table to go back).

[hetanos]

CAN WE ALL PLEASE GET TOGETHER??!!
From the one end of the spectrum ABKHAZAHAYER to ZULUHAYER**, and in between Russahayer, Parskahayer, Arabahayer, Fransahayer, Amerikahayer,... and Aramarzt Forbid... Furkahayer, and get together as HAY, not this or that ...HAY?
Among many, one will see that some us spell Vahan's name as Derian, Terian, Teryan Տերյան, Տէրյան, Տէրեան... and so on, and ad infintum, ad nauseam!
What is his surname? Տէրեան, Դերյան blah, blah, blah!!!
Note that Տերյան is transliterated as if his name was TerJan/ՏերՃան/ՏէրՃան.
Yes, Yes. We know that the Armenian Յ is known as J in German, as in Johannes/Yohannes, and Slavic. Yet, we are neither German nor Slavic. Our surnames are spelled with "ԵԱՆ/EAN" as in "mediterran-EAN.
Even if some of us will transliterate it as "IAN", that is from the "Ital-IAN" influence. ԻՏԱԼ -Ի- ԱՆ.
Please note that here we are talking about TRANSLITERATION into LATIN and or SLAVIC, not how things are spelled in ARMENIAN.
OH NO!
YES WE ARE!
I.e. If Vahan's surname is spelled ՏԵՐ-Յ-ԱՆ , is that how he spelled his name in 1907, 20 yers before abegh-tzpegh-YAN? Then why don't we transliterate it as
Ter-J-an!!??
**Please don't pretend to be Anahid, aka Takoush to ask us what a "zuluhay" is. It is th last in the gamut of the Latin alphabet that begins with AB as in Abkhazia and ends in "zulu". And there are Armenians spread all over, from Abkhazia to Albania to (Nor, New) Zelanda/Zealand to Zululand:P
Allright! do you want to see it in Armenian? Then how about Աբխսզեա to Քուէյտ/Ֆրանսա?

I'm not a linguist but I shall assume that you have a major problem with the usage of contemporary Armenian language n Armenia. There is an elegant and peaceful solution. When you type ev, du it with 2 letters. The rest of idiot erevantsi Armenians, as you put it, will continue to use ev as a single symbol... և անցնենք արաջ

Edited by hetanos, 15 May 2008 - 07:17 AM.

[Arpa]

Who the hell are you to tell me about Armenian language? Why are you in Dallas?
Déjà vus, all over again. Reminiscent of the 1940-50s nergaght/repatriation “akhber” era.
I hope you are not expecting the likes of me to relocate to Erevan, and endure the ridicule why I say parev instead of barev.
Can I ask you a personal question? What the hell are you doing in Dallas, in the heart of Diaspora, have you yet found those streets paved with gold? Maybe you have, as here in America everyone, regardless of if they were born in Bagavan or Bangladesh have an equal opportunity. Can you say that about the regime in Erevan? Remember the debate about Yerevantsis and Artsakhtis? Was not Dalargegh big enough for you, that you had to move to America? I was not born in Erevan. When those born in Erevan tell us what business they have in America, I will tell you why I am here. I sit because I did not want to be labeled as “akhper”, neither do I do now simply becaue I say “parev“, not “barev“. What is your excuse? Why are you here? Are you here to teach us how to spell “esh/էշ yesh/ եշ”? Do you know why ԷՇ is spelled with the Է and not with the , Ե is simply because in declension the Է turns to I/ Ի as in ԻՇՈՒԿ/Իշական իշամեղու but Ե does not. Get off that իշածին աբեղյան( I don’t know the rusky word for donkey) and learn real Armenian.

Hetanos-I'm not a linguist but I shall assume that you have a major problem with the usage of contemporary Armenian language n Armenia. There is an elegant and peaceful solution. When you type ev, du it with 2 letters. The rest of idiot erevantsi Armenians, as you put it, will continue to use ev as a single symbol... և անցնենք արաջ

Thank you . Neither am I a linguist. I earn my keep by other means.
You need to read more, among others the following when we told Shahan and his ilk to please not draw lines between Istanbul/furko-Armenian and Erevan Russo-Armenian. Please note that when Abovian was writing his so called popular Armenian, laced with 50% asseri, furkish and Persian words, many so called western Armenians were writing in the Language of Mashtots. They still do. Shall we rename Mesrop MASHTOTSKY?
http://hyeforum.com/...16508&hl=shahan

Edited by Arpa, 15 May 2008 - 11:31 AM.