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Miracle Or Not?


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Poll: Do you believe in miracles?

Do you believe in miracles?

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#21 Anileve

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 05:13 PM

I believe in miracles. Miracles are very good. Miracles make me happy. Therefore I don't believe I should stop taking miracle inducing substances.
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#22 Armen

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 05:47 PM

In materialist science miracles are called "paradox".

For example the Big Bang theory includes such a phrase: "physically paradoxical singularity". Translated to normal human language it will mean God's miracle.

Edited by Armen, 24 February 2005 - 06:11 PM.


#23 Arvestaked

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 06:41 PM

So yoiu are calling everything people cannot explain a miracle. That is ridiculous. The "physically paradoxical singularity" is essentially that it was apparently a monopole. Just because we do not understand it does not mean it was a miracle. If I may revive an example, rain was probably once considered a miracle. I think we should show some maturity and not be so presumptuous.

#24 Armen

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 07:51 PM

QUOTE (Arvestaked @ Feb 24 2005, 06:41 PM)
So yoiu are calling everything people cannot explain a miracle. That is ridiculous. The "physically paradoxical singularity" is essentially that it was apparently a monopole. Just because we do not understand it does not mean it was a miracle. If I may revive an example, rain was probably once considered a miracle. I think we should show some maturity and not be so presumptuous.


Your call to maturity is cute. Consider changing your avatar.

Materialist science bases lot of stuff on paradoxes. Meaning they construct their theories on unexplainable stuff. They use a linguistic tool like the word "singularity" to explain something in materialist logical terms. This means they believe a paradox (unexplainable contradiction) can be a base of some sound logic. Escencially, this is the nature of a mirace. Unexplainalbe contradiction that brings to logical results.

#25 Siamanto

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 08:11 PM

QUOTE (Solaris @ Feb 24 2005, 11:12 AM)
Hey Sasun,
...
events usually referred to as miracles are not necessarily supernatural, 'cause there are always other possible explanations. We can be hoaxed, mistaken, or deluded, or the event isn't what it seems to be, or simply our knowledge is not enough to explain it scientifically. Consider if David Copperfield's show was performed before a person who has no idea that there exist such things as tricks.  ohmy.gif And the telephone would certainly seem a miracle to the contemporaries of Jonathan Swift.

The trick is that if we "fancy" a particular miracle, we may be inclined (perhaps subconsciously) to stick to the idea of miracle ignoring all other possible explanations, to the degree of defying them when they are being pointed out by someone else. A great many people seem to crave for some "tangible" mystic experience or proof of supernatural. If one believes in some religion, they'll simply want certain phenomena to be a miracles proving their beliefs (Sasun and his stigmata).  They simply won't welcome rational explanations. msn-cry.gif
.....
Imagine a friend (who has always been sober and stable as far as you know) comes to you to confide that (s)he hears voices and sees angels – symptoms that are common both for delusional mental illnesses and divine contact. You will:

a. Revere her/him as someone having contact with God; smile.gif
b. Arrange a meeting for her/him with a good physiatrist. tongue.gif

What would prevail, your belief in divine contact or the concern and responsibility for the friends' mental health? wink.gif

Solaris,
I hear you. For the record, I would give Sasun much more credit as a rational and critical mind, regradless of how much I tease him! smile.gif

PS. Sasun,
I don't remember you as someone religious. What happened? A miracle! smile.gif

#26 Sasun

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 08:16 PM

QUOTE (Siamanto @ Feb 24 2005, 09:11 PM)
Solaris,
I hear you. For the record, I would give Sasun much more credit as a rational and critical mind, regradless of how much I tease him! smile.gif

Siamanto, thank you for your truthful words. They say that ... oops, I forget what they say, something like big minds recognise other big minds biggrin.gif
OK, we are not big minds, just trying to be sane.

QUOTE
PS. Sasun,
I don't remember you as someone religious. What happened? A miracle! smile.gif

I declare that I am not religious but I do appreciate all religions smile.gif

#27 Sasun

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 08:32 PM

QUOTE (Anileve @ Feb 24 2005, 06:13 PM)
I believe in miracles. Miracles are very good. Miracles make me happy. Therefore I don't believe I should stop taking miracle inducing substances.

You may have been under influences when posting this post ohmy.gif

#28 Siamanto

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 08:40 PM

QUOTE (Sasun @ Feb 24 2005, 08:16 PM)
Siamanto, thank you for your truthful words. They say that ... oops, I forget what they say, something like big minds recognise other big minds biggrin.gif
OK, we are not big minds, just trying to be sane.

Great minds think alike! I won't explain myself, but that is the Anglo-Saxon point of view!
Personally, I think that - by definition - a Great Mind is original i.e. to a certain degree unitelligible/unaccessible!
(I know that I did not express myself as accurately as I should or could have.)



QUOTE (Siamanto @ Feb 24 2005, 08:11 PM)
Sasun,
I don't remember you as someone religious. What happened? A miracle! smile.gif
QUOTE (Sasun @ Feb 24 2005, 08:16 PM)

I declare that I am not religious but I do appreciate all religions smile.gif



I had to phrase it in a way that I could tease you! smile.gif
The "fact" remains that I don't remember you taking part in many - if any - discussions involving God and religion. Maybe my memory is failing me!
I was really surprised to see you being so active in such conversations on HyeForum!

Edited by Siamanto, 24 February 2005 - 08:48 PM.


#29 Arvestaked

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 08:42 PM

QUOTE (Armen @ Feb 24 2005, 05:51 PM)
Your call to maturity is cute. Consider changing your avatar.


You just bit yourself in the rear with that one. The symbol is not immature and to think so is immature.

QUOTE
Materialist science bases lot of stuff on paradoxes. Meaning they construct their theories on unexplainable stuff. They use a linguistic tool like the word "singularity" to explain something in materialist logical terms. This means they believe a paradox (unexplainable contradiction) can be a base of some sound logic. Escencially, this is the nature of a mirace. Unexplainalbe contradiction that brings to logical results.


On the contrary, you are now the one who is using language because you are taking the word paradox out of the concept of their intention and putting it in the context that suits you. Apparently you missed the fact that it is physically paradoxical singularity. That phrase basically means that two physical traits, normally mutually exclusive, coexist in a way that cannot be explained. They do not construct theories on uneplainable stuff; they construct theories to explain what is observed which may result in implications that are not understood. It is fun though to watch you post as though you know something Stephen Hawking does not.

#30 Sasun

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 08:48 PM

QUOTE
5. What a stupid question. Miracles? hahahaha...    [ 1 ] 


I would like to catch the person who voted with this answer and slap macaroni and cheese to his face.

#31 Sasun

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 08:51 PM

QUOTE (Siamanto @ Feb 24 2005, 09:40 PM)
The "fact" remains that I don't remember you taking part in many - if any - discussions involving God and religion. Maybe my memory is failing me!
I was really surprised to see you being so active in such conversations on HyeForum!

I have grown up dude wink.gif

#32 Armen

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 09:02 PM

QUOTE (Arvestaked @ Feb 24 2005, 08:42 PM)
You just bit yourself in the rear with that one. The symbol is not immature and to think so is immature.

I think it was fundamentally immature of you to take my sarcasm directly. Your call for maturity was subjective enough not to be taken seriously.
QUOTE
On the contrary, you are now the one who is using language because you are taking the word paradox out of the concept of their intention and putting it in the context that suits you. Apparently you missed the fact that it is physically paradoxical singularity. That phrase basically means that two physical traits, normally mutually exclusive, coexist in a way that cannot be explained. They do not construct theories on uneplainable stuff; they construct theories to explain what is observed which may result in implications that are not understood. It is fun though to watch you post as though you know something Stephen Hawking does not.

BBT is based on a paradox and, even more, nothing has been observed as far as that theory goes. Physical or non - physical does not matter. The word paradox is there to conceal something unexplainable and move forward without explaining it because it is comfortable and easy.

#33 Siamanto

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 09:24 PM

QUOTE (Sasun @ Feb 24 2005, 08:51 PM)
I have grown up dude wink.gif

I'm glad to hear that you took into consideration my words when I told you: "grow up dude!" smile.gif

#34 Sasun

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 09:56 PM

QUOTE (Siamanto @ Feb 24 2005, 10:24 PM)
I'm glad to hear that you took into consideration my words when I told you: "grow up dude!" smile.gif

I have to agree with you. In fact, it was wise of you to foresee that I would grow up in the future smile.gif

Edited by Sasun, 24 February 2005 - 09:57 PM.


#35 Siamanto

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 10:14 PM

QUOTE (Sasun @ Feb 24 2005, 09:56 PM)
I have to agree with you. In fact, it was wise of you to foresee that I would grow up in the future smile.gif

I always believed in you!
Deep inside, I knew that eventually you will grow up, because I knew that miracles happen! smile.gif

PS. I believed in the miracle before I witnessed it! smile.gif

Edited by Siamanto, 24 February 2005 - 10:17 PM.


#36 Sasun

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 10:43 PM

QUOTE (Siamanto @ Feb 24 2005, 11:14 PM)
I always believed in you!
Deep inside, I knew that eventually you will grow up, because I knew that miracles happen! smile.gif

Had I known it would make you so enthusiastic I would have grown up faster smile.gif
QUOTE
PS. I believed in the miracle before I witnessed it! smile.gif

Perhaps it is time to organize a new religion? smile.gif

#37 DominO

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Posted 25 February 2005 - 12:00 AM

QUOTE (Siamanto @ Feb 24 2005, 10:24 PM)
I'm glad to hear that you took into consideration my words when I told you: "grow up dude!" smile.gif


So you are the responsable of his delusional "Chinmoyian" thoughts. mad.gif

#38 Solaris

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Posted 25 February 2005 - 02:04 AM

QUOTE (QueBeceR @ Feb 25 2005, 10:00 AM)
So you are the responsable of his delusional "Chinmoyian"  thoughts.  mad.gif


I mentioned David Copperfield on purpose, in case modern-day "miraculous" gurus are brought into play. smile.gif The audience for a top-notch magician's show know they are being served a trick, try hard to figure it out but few, if any, really make it. Houdini is still a legend. Now the same can be performed on stage by a "guru" not as a trick but a "miracle" before an exalted audience willing to buy just about anything. msn-cry.gif

Sasun's stigmatists could have used some trickery or simple dexterity to cut themselves unnoticed, but that sort of petty pious fraud is harmless by and large (if you don't have a problem with exposing an aspect to Christian faith with a distinctly sadomasochistic flavour) tongue.gif . There seems to be a "demand" for miracles and so there is more than adequate "supply". smile.gif But when belief in miracles is being exploited in a way that "miracle-making" trickery becomes a money-making "industry" and a brainwashing tool, then it certainly is a cause for concern… msn-cry.gif

Edited by Solaris, 25 February 2005 - 02:06 AM.


#39 armjan

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Posted 25 February 2005 - 02:05 AM

QUOTE (Sasun @ Feb 24 2005, 10:43 PM)
Had I known it would make you so enthusiastic I would have grown up faster smile.gif

Perhaps it is time to organize a new religion? smile.gif


not a bad idea. may i suggest calling it Sasunism smile.gif
and you can be the leader.

Edited by armjan, 25 February 2005 - 02:09 AM.


#40 Solaris

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Posted 25 February 2005 - 02:44 AM

QUOTE (Siamanto @ Feb 25 2005, 06:11 AM)
Solaris,
I hear you.


Ooh, and I want you hear me.... wink.gif
//The Beatles tongue.gif




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