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Mt Nemrut & It's Wonders


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#41 neko

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Posted 29 January 2007 - 07:10 PM

Error404 = intelligence requested but not found. tongue.gif

Edited by neko, 29 January 2007 - 07:11 PM.

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#42 Error 404

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Posted 29 January 2007 - 08:40 PM

QUOTE(neko @ Jan 29 2007, 05:10 PM) View Post

Error404 = intelligence requested but not found. tongue.gif


Well,

as Hellector said...

#43 MosJan

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Posted 29 January 2007 - 10:25 PM

Jean Reno plays in The Empire of the Wolves

if you have time get hold of it - it's an interesting move - it ends on top of Nemrut Sar

http://www.blockbust...?movieId=264511

#44 MosJan

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Posted 29 January 2007 - 10:29 PM

http://www.narek.com...o...at=0&page=1

also this dvd would be good
it gives nice info / it's not some web site wink.gif it's Professors and Historians that have soled info on facts

#45 MosJan

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Posted 29 January 2007 - 10:32 PM

at one time i did found some DVD's from Europe / nemrut foundation ? somthing like that - but it was in PAL - and my dvd was not showing PAL - had to have it converted - a good Friend who helped to transfer he lost the dvd -


i did not reporder teh dvd it was $55 + SH

GOd like i could not use my PC to view the dvd sad.gif

#46 MosJan

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Posted 29 January 2007 - 10:44 PM

also see http://www.vahagnits...nde.compag.html

teh top video has some nice pictures

#47 Armenak

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Posted 30 January 2007 - 01:58 AM

QUOTE(MosJan @ Jan 29 2007, 08:29 PM) View Post

http://www.narek.com...o...at=0&page=1

also this dvd would be good
it gives nice info / it's not some web site wink.gif it's Professors and Historians that have soled info on facts

$25.00
$2.00

Save 88%. ohmy.gif
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#48 MosJan

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Posted 30 January 2007 - 07:08 AM

most of the GTAK video products are $3

#49 Hellektor

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Posted 30 January 2007 - 05:55 PM

QUOTE(Error 404 @ Jan 29 2007, 04:43 PM) View Post

I found Mount Nemrut in wiki. Why is it saying that those are greek-persian gods? And that Antiochus I was the son of king Mithridates I Callinicus and the Seleucid princess Laodice, daughter of the Syrian King Antiochus VIII.

There is nothing mentioned about armenia and armenian gods.

Hellector?

For me, the first time I saw the pictures of the statues, I couldnít help feeling that they were Armenian. I think itís more because of the crowns. I havenít seen any Roman, Persian or Macedonian crowns that look anything like those of the statues. The Assyrian crown looks a bit like the Armenian but not quite. Then thereís the eagle that also looks like an Armenian eagle.

Before some users/abusers spew their hate comments, Iím talking about the feel of the statues to me. I had no idea of the location, history and even the age of those when I saw the photos for the very first time as a kid. At the same age I was completely aware of what Greek or Roman statues looked like, not only because of history books or TV but because we went on a tour to Europe when I was eleven and I would tire my parents visiting Louvres, Vatican, Borghese, British, etc., museums. I just didnít want to leaveÖ

*****

Thank you for your trust Four o Four. Iím not really that knowledgeable but I can tell you this: Some years ago there were a couple of lectures about Commagene in an Armenian center here in Tehran. One important thing that came up was that we (Armenians) were not that concerned with doing research about Armenian heritage. Of course, the region being under Turkish occupation itís not that easy, if not impossible for Armenian historians, archaeologists, etc. to conduct research on the site. On the other hand who is going to finance such research?

Donít you see similarities in this case with Urartu? Again, we see the statues and the whole history of Commagene is simplified into Mount Nemrut. Historically, the little that I know tells me that in the time of the kingdom of Van (Urartu) and their wars with the Assyrians, Commagene always stood besides and sought the protection of the Armenians. This is long before the invasions of Alexander the Faggot and the fall of the Achaemenid Empire that brought the Seleucids to power and started the so-called Hellenistic period of the region. In the Achaemenid times when Armenia was under their rule, Commagene was a part of the Armenian administration (Satrap), later a part of Yervanduni kingdom by uniting with Ծոփք. Then enter the Seleucids. Also at those lectures, we saw a documentary about Commagene that stated they pushed Marcus Antoniusí army away.

According to these facts Commage cannot be Assyrian, Persian, Greek or Roman. The Hitite Empire was also long gone.

From Robert Bedrossians website:

PTOLEMAEUS, ruling c. 170, independent ruler c. 163-c. 130 B.C.
SAMUS II THEOSEBES DIKAIOS, c. 130-c. 100
MITHRIDATES I CALLINICUS, c. 100-c. 70
ANTIOCHUS I THEOS c. 70-c. 35

This Ptolemaeus apparently reestablished the independence of Commagene. Later in times of Tigran it became a part of the Armenian kingdom and after Ardavazd II a part of the Roman Empireís Assyrian administration. Much later, in the Middle Ages, again part of Armenian dukedoms and later close to the Cilician kingdom.

Whatís sure, is that the population must have had a considerable Armenian and Assyrian proportion and this is what counts. Commagene being a part of todayís Malatia, these people were destroyed during the Genocide of the last century which put an end to all that history and cultural heritage.

Also check this page and scroll down for "Armenian Kingdom of Commagene". This website doesnít seem to be Armenian.

Edited by Hellektor, 30 January 2007 - 06:03 PM.

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#50 Arpa

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Posted 30 January 2007 - 07:24 PM

Yes, dear Hellektor.
We cannot dig into the past in so called hostile lands.
What is our excuse to not dig in such ďfriendlyĒ lands as Iran to see where and what AVARAYR is?

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#51 Hellektor

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Posted 30 January 2007 - 07:41 PM

QUOTE(Arpa @ Jan 30 2007, 08:24 PM) View Post

Yes, dear Hellektor.
We cannot dig into the past in so called hostile lands.
What is our excuse to not dig in such ďfriendlyĒ lands as Iran to see where and what AVARAYR is?

Nothing! Have some bucks for it?

Shall we tell them: "we came here to dig for a battlefield where we decided to give you a big "Fuck Thee" and we believe we kicked your asses alright although our hope for the resurrection of the Armenian kingdom died in that same battle. So would you please allow us to find out where it was?" and let's kill the only lifeline out of a quagmire of Turks*?

*Yes! Arpa-Sevan, those ungrateful "brothers" who owe their existence to us would have become "Azeri" Turks by now if it hadn't been for dear Mesrop's biggest mistake. And no! the people of the REAL Azarbaijan (Atrpatakan, Aturpatekan, Aturpayegan, Atropatene) are not Turks but Turkish speaking Iranians who lost their language under Turkish rule but kept their land with the price of changing their religion to Shiism (with all that mourning and all) to avoid being usurped and slurped by the Ottowolves.

#52 Arpa

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Posted 30 January 2007 - 09:49 PM

Bucks?
You mean buk-buk chick-chick?
As to Avarayr...
Do you have a shovel?
Iíll tell you where Avarayr is supposed to be.
Look here and see what was written some time ago.;

http://hyeforum.com/...7048&hl=avarayr

Once again Steve, thank you for a fascinating story.
You seem to have a passion for archeology, is that a profession as well?

One thing that has fascinated me is the location of the Battle of Avarayr. Of all the historical sites it seems to be one with the most detailed description. According to eyewitnesses (Yeghishe et al) it is supposed to be located at the bank of Tghmut River, which btw literally means "muddy", hence probably a very small creek. According to some sources the field of Avarayr coincides with the NW Iranian town of GaraZiaEddin of today.
If you observe the map below it is directly west of Jugha/Julfa at the sothwest corner of Nakhijevan, next to that square at the top of highway 11. Move directly left from that point, at the intersection NS and EW highways is the town of GaraZiaEddin, about 2mm north of the highway sign(I think #32) designated with a white circle. It seems to be about 15 miles north of the largest city of the area, Khoy,at the bottom of the loop of route 11.

What has puzzled me is that the said location, having been the best described historical site, and in a relatively less hostile territory, has never been actually investigated, not to my knowledge anyway.
If the Battle of Avarayr did in fact happen and at that location one would be inclined to believe that there would be some traces and relics left be it animate(?) or inanimate.
Does anyone know if the site has ever ever searched?
How about it Steve? Will that be your next project?

Map NW Iran; Click at the northwesternmost "horn" of Iran to get a detailed map of the area.
http://www.arianews.com/iranmap/


It should not be such a difficult job since all you have to do is dig 6 bodies. Count them, six bodies. Not sixtry thousand/vatsun hazar. Vardan, his Wife Satenik, his Daughter Shushanik, Ghevont Yerets**, his wife Varsenik and his daughter Leonik.
**You didnít know that in those days vardapets and catholicoses were married?

Edited by Arpa, 30 January 2007 - 09:50 PM.


#53 Error 404

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Posted 31 January 2007 - 02:22 AM

Thanks Hellector and others.

The reason I was asking is if we have enough hard evidence we could edit the wiki article and put there the truth.

Apparently it is not the time yet...

#54 Nvard

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Posted 31 January 2007 - 08:55 AM

well, the funny part is that the land around Nemrut Sar was always Armenian.first it was the land of the proto-armenian speaking tribes, then Armenian kingdom or Armenian nahararutyun.But always Armenian.Who else could build that:) And who else could put Aramazd with Hercules biggrin.gif

BTW Nemrut Sar is mentioned in many Armenian myths.Sasuntsi David, for example
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#55 Hellektor

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Posted 01 February 2007 - 06:36 PM

QUOTE(Error 404 @ Jan 31 2007, 03:22 AM) View Post

Thanks Hellector and others.

The reason I was asking is if we have enough hard evidence we could edit the wiki article and put there the truth.

Apparently it is not the time yet...

You're welcome. The history part of my post is from accurate sources, there's nothing wrong with that. If there's doubt whether the statues were built by Armenians, then I want to see which other nation uses crowns like those. To me they are definitely Armenian unless evidence is shown that proves otherwise.

#56 Hellektor

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Posted 02 February 2007 - 04:37 PM

QUOTE(Error 404 @ Jan 31 2007, 03:22 AM) View Post

Thanks Hellector and others.

The reason I was asking is if we have enough hard evidence we could edit the wiki article and put there the truth.

Apparently it is not the time yet...

Still not convinced?

OK. Here the translation of the topic Commagene from page 543 of the fifth volume of the Soviet Armenian Encyclopedia, published in 1979 in Yerevan. Iím sure if you donít have the set, you do have access to this book.

Commagene Կոմմագենէ, Կումմախա, Կումմուխու
Ancient country near the west bank of the Euphrates (part of Malatia vilayet of present day Turkey). Borders were: the Taurus Mountains to the north, Amanos Mountains and Cilicia to the west, Assyria to the south and the Euphrates to the east. Most important city was Samosat.

At the end of the II millennium BC Commagene was a late Hittite (հեթիթական, հաթական, խեթական) state with a Luvian population. Situated on the crossroads of Urartian Ė Assyrian conflicts, Commagene has time and time again sought the protection of Urartu against Assyrian invasions.

In the days of the Achaemenid Empire Commagene has been governed as a part of the Armenian Satrapy (Սատրապութիւն) later part of Yervanduni Armenian state. In the first half of the third century BC Commagene and Tsopk (Ծոփք) have created a joint state where the Yervanduni kings Samos (mid third century BC) and Arsham (from 240s to 220s BC) have ruled.

At the end of the third century BC, Commagene was cut off from Tsopk (Ծոփք) and fell under Seleucids rule. In the days of Ptolemaeusí (Պտղոմէոս) rule Commagene has regained its independence. The following rulers have ruled in Commagene successively:

Ptolemaeus, ruling c. 170, independent ruler c. 163-c. 130 b.c.
Samus II Theosebes Dikaios, c. 130-c. 100
Mithridates I Callinicus, c. 100-c. 70
Antiochus I Theos c. 70-c. 35

(Dates from Robert Bedrossianís website)

At the time of Tigran II the Great and Artavazd II, Commagene was a part of the Armenian state. In the second half of the first century BC Commagene has gone under Roman rule. In 72 AD, the Roman emperor Vespasian (Titus Flavius Vespasianus) dethroned the last king of Commagene, Antiochus IV Philopappos (Caius Julius Antiochus Epiphanes Philopappos), and annexed Commagene to the Assyrian province.

In the Middle Ages, Commagene evolved into a center for the development of Assyrian language and literature. The invention of the Armenian alphabet is closely related to the cultural centers of Commagene. At the time of Arab-Byzantine wars, Commageneís territory has gained strategic importance. In the eleventh century, Commagene became a part of Pilatros Varajnuniís (Փիլատրոս Վարաժնունի) dukedom, later came under the influence of Cilician Armenian kingdom until the end of the fourteenth century.

From the second half of the first millennium BC until 1915, Commagene had an Armenian population. Monuments from Hittite, Hellenistic and medieval periods (Assyrian and Armenian) abound in Commagene.

The remnants of cities (Samosat, Samokert, Arshamashat, Arsamia) and temples built by Yervanduni kings of Commagene are valuable sources for the appreciation of the civilization, architecture, sculpture and religious beliefs of eastern, especially the Armenian Hellenistic period.

See map on page 140 (of volume V of the Soviet Armenian Encyclopedia).

Sources (among others): Հայ ժողովրդի պատմութիւն, հատոր 1, Ե., 1971, բաժին Երևան: (History of Armenians Vol. 1, V., 1971, Yerevan).
K. Humann, O. Puchstein, Reisen in Kleinasien und Nordsyrien, Berlin., 1890.
E. Honigmann, Kommagene, Paulyís Realencyklopšdie der klassischen Altertumswissenschaft, Supplementband, 4, Stuttgart, 1924.
Գ. Տիրացեան.


#57 MosJan

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Posted 11 February 2007 - 05:15 AM

http://www.livius.or...E_terrace09.JPG

#58 MosJan

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Posted 11 February 2007 - 05:30 AM

http://www.tuluyhanu...yhan-nemrut.JPG

CODE
http://www.tuluyhanugurlu.com/English/nemrut.html


his out of his mind - but again - his not a historian nor he had wished to learn or tell the truth


#59 Zartonk

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 08:47 AM

QUOTE
If there's doubt whether the statues were built by Armenians, then I want to see which other nation uses crowns like those. To me they are definitely Armenian unless evidence is shown that proves otherwise.


IPB Image


IPB Image


IPB Image

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#60 Zartonk

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 08:55 AM

If you closely observe the second and third photographs above, the ornamentation on Antiochus' garment somewhat resembles the 8 point star seen on Tigran the Great's crown. Though I myself don't have the data to support this at the moment, Artak Movsesian mentions the crowning of Antiochus by Tigran in the video link posted on the first page. Any thoughts?




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