175 replies to this topic

[Juggernaut]

mmmm, this is indeed disturbing. Artur I must admit becuase I've lived in Australia for 10 years I have become used to the behaviour that is present on this (Armenian) forum, and you are absolutelly right in your criticism, but these people wont understand because they havnt lived in Armenia for any length of time during the 'pre-democtratic' period.

And you shouldn't leave becuase it will only make them think that we are weak in our beliefs.

THOTH,

I would think for your age you would have been more serious (about appropriate matters) and intelligent. Thats all I'm going to say, because there is no point in argueing, Im only going to get ridiculled.

quote

And I would kill all fat people (Juggernuts I guess that means you)

Since when did fatness equate to uglyness? I certainly dont consider those grotesquelly shaped 'super-models' as the best specimens of our species (and no I dont consider myself to be either, because I know thats what you would have said).

[hasmiek]

he Juggernaut

TOTH was being sarcastic to make his point, you don't have to get all dramatic about it now.

[nellie]

Arthur, one way a man can show his true manliness is to withstand criticism. You shouldn't leave the forum because certain people (well in this case, 98% of people) disagree with your opinions. it may not seem like it, but we're all trying to respect your opinions, it's just that to us, you seem extremely narrow-minded. why are you offended by Kazza's signature? the word "sex" coming out of an armenian girl's mouth should not offend you. kazza is not promoting promiscuity, and i'm sure she's not running around having sex with everybody she comes into contact with, even if she was it would be of no concern to us. (let's try not to inflict our beliefs onto everybody else).

[nellie]

As far as the dress issue is concerned....wellll, I guess a lot of it is just a matter of taste. I would agree on one thing though, european girls don't pay as much attention to their looks as armenian girls do. this is because european girls actually have more on their mind than armenian girls. I for example, would love to look my best all the time, but with the type of lifestyle i lead, it is nearly impossible.
I wake up at about 6:00 every morning, exercise and run for about 45 min, come home, jump in the shower, and unfortunately i don't have much time to put make-up on and dress all "girly", because i gotta make it to school on time. what happens when classes are over, i come home, cook, eat, go to work, after which I hit the library to study. i feel most comfortable in jeans (or sweats), a t-shirt, and my hair up in a bun or pony tail. most girls in armenia, however, wake up every morning, dress all fancy, and for what might I ask? to go and wait in line for an hour to get bread, all the while hoping that some man is going to notice her. only thing she's got on her mind is marriage.

[Arturian]

It is not about critisism, me being against everyone etc. It's about Kazza's signiture. It is a public forum and it is an Armenian forum, so i believe we should comply to the morals and ethics of Armenian society. Many foreigners especially Azeris visit this site. And it is disgraceful.

I ask moderators to demand the removal of the signiture from Kazza. If not then, i can't be here, it is shameful for me to see an Armenian girl with such signiture. Our girls are not hash smokers and they don't talk about sex in public!!! It is immoral!

I won't reply and comment anymore until the signiture is removed.

Artur
P.S. Jegrnaut I appreciate your post. It is good to see a guy who respects our culture.

[ February 28, 2002, 06:05 AM: Message edited by: ARTURian ]

[THOTH]

Artur, Artur, Artur, and Juggernuts and perhaps Harut too (don't know) -

First - I can be plenty serious when the need/topic arises. But do you really believe that this topic - your contention that European Girls dress poorly or such is a serious topic? If it is to you then I can only say you need to lighten up. You need to lighten up. And please - you needn't worry about my taking care of my family in any way (My wife has a very good job you know...LOL!). And you worry enough aparently....

And Jugs baby - I am sorry if my joking with Artur offends you - no offense meant. I imagine there is not much else to do in New Zealand than eat and survey the available sheep...

To all: I understand that there are tremendous differences in attitudes East & West - and that this gulf may not be bridged anytime soon (with some people). I also would never want to appear culturally arrogant or such and I understand that those of us in the West can also learn form people of other cultures and that we ourselves (our societies) have some very real problems in a number of areas.

At the same time I find sexist and racist attitudes very distasteful - regardless of the rational. It is my opinion that any reasoning person should be able to understand these points and realize that even though these may have been the ways of the past, they are not ideal behaviors and attitudes. While Artur and Juggernaut may have an Old World view in this regard I am hoping that perhaps they are intelligent enough to understand why these old ways are in many ways just wrong - and that they certainly should not be a model for the future. In any event - the rest of the world is realizing this from a practical standpoint and society is changing accordingly.

At the same time I can understand how people who emerge from more traditional backgrounds will make ceretain (mis) assumptions concerning the dress and behaviors of women (and perhaps men) in the West - this is entirely understandable. In some cases their critiques might be valid - and certainly no one can claim that life in the West is perfect - there is terrible crime and other sick/violent behaviors etc (not that some of this doesn't existis in traditional societies - talked about or no...). But - I think most of the examples cited arise more from a misunderstanding/unappreciation of realities in the West and how we live/our values then any true critique that we are doing it wrong. Womens dress is a perfect example and I think Nellie has explained it very well. (though if I saw her out in public perhaps I too would wish that she was wearing some pretty dress and was all made up [from a purely selfish viewpoint on my part]...then again I imagine she might look pretty good in jeans and a...lets see living in Southern California....hm, lets at least make it a halter top...LOL)

I find it funny that Artur seems to be complaining that English women don't dress up and look frumpy and such while at the same time when they do he seems offended that they look like (or act like) whores/sluts etc (from his perspective). I'm sorry that he feels that way and is so offended - and I aympathize with his confusion etc - the issue in my mind though is how Artur makes these blanket judgemental statements that we in the West are somewhow categoricaly wrong and that his perspective is the only valid one. Well - from the git go that makes him not serious in my eyes - so if I respond accordingly - well I apologize. I am more than happy to respond seriously when addressed in such a manner or to comment seriously on serious subject matter.

And as for Artur leaving the forum (or otherwise acting petulantly) well - I am sorry for him that he is so closed minded (and un-fun). I do not encourage him to go - and certainly welcome all (non nasty) perspectives and belive that those of us who have adopted Western ways can benefit from exposure and information from our (more traditional) brethern....however I will not cry the blues if he leaves either as I do not welcome the manner he often expresess (what to me are) his extreme and uncomprimising/uncomprehending views.

[ February 28, 2002, 07:54 AM: Message edited by: THOTH ]

[TigrannesIII]

I think it's great that most of these spiurgahyes are completely assimilated. It shows that the Turks won.

[THOTH]

Well yes they did "win" didn't they (do you really think otherwise). And I am sure that Armenians (who have grown up in the West) had they been living in Anatolia instead would have grown up differently with different values - maybe not your very constricted values though - as Armenians in Western Anatolia were much more cosmoplitan then you give credit - my family certainly was.

In any event - its a moot pont - and time neither goes backward nor does it stand still. It is entirely unrealistic to expect that Armenians in America or elsewhere would not assimilate local values and customs etc (and we have always done so in any place where Armenians have been in every period). In addition these values are spreading world wide - and by and large I believe they are good values (sure certainly with some drawbacks and problems).

Another thing you should consider (and I certainly do) is that if it were not for your family comming to America and intermarrying with Odars - you wouldn't be here and neither would I. If you choose to return to your roots or what have you - well thats great - thats your decision - for yourself. But do you really think that by attempting to claim superiority over the rest of us - who have chosen a different course - that you will really win any converts? I don't think so. I think it makes you feel good and helps you to justify the decision you have made for yourself (though I also think you are far more Western then you will ever admit). So I encourage you to go to Armenian and see what it is really like - be it your ideal or whatever. I think you will be in for quite a shock - and you will return with a much greater appreciation for what you have here. Though i really hope that if you do go you will find a balance and a maturity to prosper in both worlds and can do something worthwhile to make a difference. Do you have what it takes...? W'ell just have to see....

[hasmiek]

Oh man, what a sorry-ass stupid discussion this is. All these fanatic Armenian boys remind me of this guy I used to know, he was always so fanatically Armenian, going there every year, making a fool of me dating white boys and not going to our Hayastan every time I had the chance to… Last thing I heard about him was through my mom, he met this Moroccan chick, got her pregnant and lives with her now (nope not married)
And guess what?? He said all the same stuff as Juggernaut, Artur, Tigranness and who ever more who states that everybody who adapts to the counties they live in is ‘not Armenian’.

Well,at least he saw the light, and lightened up, let’s hope you boys do so too.

Cheerio!

[MosJan]

"I ask moderators to demand the removal of the signiture from Kazza. If not then, i can't be here, it is shameful for me to see an Armenian girl with such signiture. Our girls are not hash smokers and they don't talk about sex in public!!! It is immoral!"

Artur stop demanding, and see if you can bee nice to KAzZa, talk to her nicely, then shi might change her signature.

[nellie]

well, I certainly do not encourage marrying out of the race, but if that's what he chose, I hope he's happy.
You're right Hasmik, all these guys are just talking the talk, let's see if they'll actually walk the walk. Lack of integrity is what i hate most in a guy.
lastly, I certainly do not agree that anyone who assimilates is not armenian. I believe it is merely a means of survival. If we're trying to make a living in a western world, we have to assimilate somewhat. of course, i hope we still hold on to our core armenian beliefs and values, however, lifestyle, obviously has to change.

nellie

[Arturian]

OK, Thoth, now i will say things about you.

You call me disrespectful and all fashioned with no respect to women. Look at you. You talk in public about your wife and you having sex, and you happy that she had sex before marriage. It is the sign of respect to her or disrespect? You see your wife as a tool for your satisfaction, and disgracefully talk about it in public with some kids (yes kids for your age). You call your self moral, and say your way is wrong. Define!!!

Is western way right? In what way? That girls have sex like cats before marriage? Is our society wrong because it does not legalize drugs, but in your society, even kids can buy cocain heroin etc. Is west better than us? Homosexuals, transexuals, pedophilies etc. are everywhere. People rape kids like nothing. 3 year old - 2 year old they don't care. Prostitution has such a high percentage, and people like you think prostitution is just the way of earning money, and this encourages young kids to go for it. Or the west better in the way that there is such disrespect to parents. Let me remind you that in your society kids raise voice at their parents, and throw bad words at them ... Kids in YOUR society respect FRIENDS MORE THAN PARENTS !!! People in your society respect wifes more than parents!!! Is this right then? Or it is right that kids walk aroung with guns shooting their teachers in schools????? In what way it is better??? Is it better in the way that husband and wife INVITE THIRD PARTY FOR THEIR SEXUAL GAMES TO HAVE SATISFACTION ????? Is your society better in the way that guys walk around calling girls bitches instead of showing respect to the most beautiful part of mankind??? Is our way worse, because we show highest respect to our girls??? I have never ever called an armenian girl in bad way as my mouth wouldn't do that. Is our society worse because women don't sleep with boses but stay at home watching HOLY THING CALLED KIDS??? Is our society worse that our women are so loyal to their husbands??? Is our society wrong because men, do whatever it takes to protect their family??? Is our way wrong when men does not allow woman to drive car, BECAUSE HE CARES SO MUCH ABOUT HER HELTH and doesn't want her to be heart???

Open your eyes and sing, as you don't see such things... you are blind... blind old guy who's got no business but to argue with some kids. You have your own children, go and spend more time with them rather than here! What is your point of life? What is life for you? To have good time before you die? Life is about kids, life is about relatives, your parents. To make sure that they are happy. You call me stupid and childish. You are right, I am stupid, i spend so much time here arguining with your type people. I am already 20 year old and I am ashamed that I haven't yet build a house for my mother in Greece.

Bro, I don't want to offend you, I don't want to arue with you. We are all armenians here and you armenian too and I wish you all the best, and all the best to your family. I wish your kids be the happiest in the world and have all the wealth. But start respecting who you are, start respecting our traditions, cos these are traditions of your grandfathers and grandmothers.

Movses, wether you or her I don't care i want it to be removed. Obviously you don't see a problem here. No comments... Kazza, i ask you to remove the first 2 lines of your signiture. Pls do so.

Regards,
Artur

[THOTH]

Artur - well you are right..I don't have time to answer you right now - I must attend to my kids!

Briefly - I don't disagree with some of what you say - but it is a worst case view and does not represent most of reality here. And of course i do disagree with a number of your assertions - particularly about women driving cars - please. If you cannot understand why this is a non-issue (over here) and even somewhat questionable (back in Armenia - IMO) then I am afraid that ther is little hope for you.

BTW - sex with my wife is great, and no - you are not invited...

Bye kids...

[MosJan]

Movses, wether you or her I don't care i want it to be removed. Obviously you don't see a problem here. No comments... Kazza, i ask you to remove the first 2 lines of your signiture. Pls do so.

Artur i do see a problem, but it's not up to me to teal Kazza to remove or not remove,
i do not say many thinks but that those not mean that thus are not problems.

like You Artur registering a #HyeForum i on IRC and having topic liek www.Hayastan.com or something like that. like you posting your web address , like you sabotaging trades, whey would you do this Arturo ??? maybe you have a intention ? hmm lets see you do own a Armenian Forum your self don't you .?
teal me if registering a #hayforum was not intentional??
tell me that you haven't tried directing traffic from this web site ??

if tear is problems or problematic person that I need to deal wit you will be the #1 so don't let me loose my cool and bust your chaps for your childish games that your playing.
cut the crap!!! i do not have the time or the helth.

before you point a finger on any person, take a good look at your self. see haw many fingers are pointed at you ...

iy iy iy iy iy

when it's time for us to interfere we will interfere / and Think 10 times and post once!!! in your case Think 100 times and post once!!!

[Juggernaut]

There is a time and place for everything, as far as I am concearned we are discussing a very important issue here. In fact I dont think I have ever read a serious post by him.

The topic is moral Armenian behaviour...

Thats right keep floggin the same horse, because its not gonna get you any further....

Indeed with the introduction of 'democracy' things have changed for the better.

As for the story about the Morroccan girl, what can I say, either he was a weakling or he just needed to talk about something (because he was devoid of other topics)....maybe he was trying to impress you.....

[TigrannesIII]

The only 'cosmopolitan' Armenians in Western Armenia were those living in Constantinople. My family was rich and educated in Western Armenia (most were poor peasants), but they were about the most religious people you would ever meet. So that shoots another assumption of yours up.

As for me being Western? Hardly. I have to put on a face for my American friends, but I can be myself with my Hayasdantsi friends, to a lesser extent my foreign friends (India, Singapore, Serbia, etc).

Well, my mother is more Armenian than most of the 'Armenians' here, she's responsible for the majority of morals I believe in. Stop bringing up my mother, I don't bring up yours. At least mine had the sense to marry an Armenian and raise her children with Armenian morals.

We'll see what happens when I go there. Ooooh, living conditions. That really doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things and everything I plan to do.

As for maturity? You're about the most immature person on this forum. I thought you were college educated. And how can you think I'm going to be in shock- it's not like you've ever been there.

[khodja]

Tigranes III,

My family were also wealthy and educated, with lawyers and doctors present. They one residence in Bolise, one in the Anatolian interior and a vacation home on an island off the coast. My father was studying in Europe at the time of the Genocide. My mother was also very religious in her youth, but she was betrayed by her church. So my perspectives are different than yours.

[hasmiek]

Well TOTH,

I would take all this "you are so immature "accusations as a big compliment. At least you seem to be enjoying your life and not behaving like a 70 year old demented man, Like some people do around here...

[Arturian]

Movses Jan, the channel problem is out topic. If you have questions PM me. And also don't worry about my traffic, I believe i already generate twice as much as your portal. But that's not the point here.

About childish games. These are discussions and thank me from driving some traffic to your forum. 90% of discussions come from me. I am afraid without me your forum would be more or less dead. That's one thing.

Another thing about fingers pointed at me. What is the problem here? Did I break your code of regulations?? Did i disrespected you and/or anyone? Did I ever swear here? No! Therefore there no fingers can be pointed at me!!! These are discussions and in democratical way people have a right to express its opinions and others have a right to disagree with me. Bro, you have some issues and problems with me, others rather I believe don't think so.

And about 100 times... I get it as an offence. I will not reply to this.

Regards,
Artur

[ March 01, 2002, 01:22 AM: Message edited by: ARTURian ]

[koko]

Arthur you show us the patriarcalic value of men in armenian sociaity wich i personally think should be wiped off.
I have meet people like you, sadly, there are many in armenia today who see girls only as objects. women should spend more time caring about how they look than what they achieve in life?
I was refering to another post by your Arthur,i see the discussion has gotten further.

Anyway, i take back stupid, (stupid...)

[ March 04, 2002, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: koko ]