86 replies to this topic

[Harut]

What does that mean?

that means have a red apple, it's good for your health....

here... enjoy...

[Em]

i didn't know that women are special species and require special rights... aren't we all supposed to have the same rights?

I hope you are joking. If not, I wish my female counterparts and I lived in that dream world of yours.....

[Harut]

please accept this halfandhalf apple... your doughter was technically virgin, but not quite so...

[Harut]

I hope you are joking. If not, I wish my female counterparts and I lived in that dream world of yours.....

you're always welcome to visit me in my dreams...

[Harut]

that means have a red apple, it's good for your health....

here... enjoy...

hmm... i think i've seen this picture somewhere else... oh yeah... in my human anathomy book...

[Eva]

hmm... i think i've seen this picture somewhere else... oh yeah... in my human anathomy book...

Only in anatomy book..???? good

[Em]

Knereq. Anikdot ey grel, bayc heto poshmaneci.

Edited by Em124, 11 November 2006 - 03:58 PM.

[Em]

you're always welcome to visit me in my dreams...

Harut jan, see you have the right to invite me into your dreams. Bayc te yes @tenc arracharkutyun aney, "jisth" cher lini. Lol. It's not just about equal rigths. It's more about equality in general.

[SanVal]

What a nasty tradition. If the spouses want each other to be virgins, that's their business. But why should the family see proof of the bride's virginity?

People who think this tradition should be upheld should remember that about 100 years ago, when this tradition was still widely observed, the females in our families got married around 13-15! Now women--if they're from relatively educated families, at least--get married as adults. It's very embarrassing for an adult to have to go through this.

In response to that comment about Americans (or other westerners) being inundated with sexual references, I couldn't agree more. BUT as far as sex goes, my impression is that a western upbringing is actually healthier for children. Like many who spent the earlier parts of their lives in third and second world countries, I lived in a household of 7 people in a small two-bedroom apartment until I was eight. Because of that, my first sex lesson was from my parents (I heard the sounds; didn't see anything). I have no doubt that it's like that in Armenia, too, in case someone wants to idealize it.

The bottom line is that it's a lot healthier to find out about sex from TV (some actors whom you'll never see in real life) than from your family members!

[Sako_Aper]

What a nasty tradition. If the spouses want each other to be virgins, that's their business. But why should the family see proof of the bride's virginity?

People who think this tradition should be upheld should remember that about 100 years ago, when this tradition was still widely observed, the females in our families got married around 13-15! Now women--if they're from relatively educated families, at least--get married as adults. It's very embarrassing for an adult to have to go through this.

In response to that comment about Americans (or other westerners) being inundated with sexual references, I couldn't agree more. BUT as far as sex goes, my impression is that a western upbringing is actually healthier for children. Like many who spent the earlier parts of their lives in third and second world countries, I lived in a household of 7 people in a small two-bedroom apartment until I was eight. Because of that, my first sex lesson was from my parents (I heard the sounds; didn't see anything). I have no doubt that it's like that in Armenia, too, in case someone wants to idealize it.

The bottom line is that it's a lot healthier to find out about sex from TV (some actors whom you'll never see in real life) than from your family members!

Armenia has nothing to do with the fact that you heard your parents having sex. Also, how do you consider that a sex lesson?

You say that it is an embarassing tradition? It is not embarassing for someone who's grown up thinking that is the way it is, it is normal. Just like if you go to a hunting and gathering society, people will be walking around almost naked or naked, it maybe embarassing to you to do that, but not them because that's the way it has been.

"Western upbringing is actually healthier for children." I do not think so. Armenian upbringing teaches youth abstinence, western upbring teaches students to use contraceptives and "bozutun". In the United States you are considered a "Boz" only if you are standing on a street corner and selling yourself, everything else is okay and completely fine. In the U.S. upbringing it is the primary goal of youth to lose their virginity. I am made fun of by all my friends and they continually say things such as, "Sarkis, we need to take you to a party to get you laid." I say no, they think I'm scared, but I am embarassed to tell them I do not want to lose my virginity, but it is indeed the case. Also, losing your virginity before you are married increases the chance of divorce.

[Sako_Aper]

Also.

"The bottom line is that it's a lot healthier to find out about sex from TV (some actors whom you'll never see in real life) than from your family members!"

First of all, this has nothing to do with the Red Apple Tradition.
Second I believe that statement is completely false.

You did not receive a "Sex Lesson" from your parents by hearing them having sex at night. What do you mean by "Sex Lesson?"

Second, I was reading a research study about people who watch porn, as you say it is better to watch porn. This research desagreed with your "Bottom line" statement. It said that individuals who watch porn, fantisize the porn star in the film they watched while having sex with their wife. It also led to porn addiction and eventually divorce. There is no need for your so called "Sex Lesson" it comes naturally. Also the study indicated that couples who preserved their virginity until they were married were more likely to have a stronger and HEALTHIER marriage. I've been looking for the article, but I can't find it and I don't know what magazine it was in that I read it.

[Sako_Aper]

Anoushik, it really isn't about pessimism, it's the truth.

[SanVal]

My main response is that there are many instances in life where you have to face reality rather than hold on to something that just no longer exists. That doesn't mean that everyone needs to embrace the new. It means that you have to consider both the new and the old, and try to make some sort of compromise.

If you don't do that, the situation might turn out to be a lot worse than what you intended. Here's an example. I have for about 3-4 years been acquaintances with someone who still works as a doctor in Yerevan. She has worked in the city as well as with people in the villages, and she told me that some girls in Armenia, because of fear that they're not going to be virginal on their wedding night, choose to have anal sex so that their future husbands think they're virgins when they get married. Other than being disgusting (and I mean think in a physical sense, not in a moral one), that's very unsafe in a society where most people still think that condoms are unnecessary. Had these girls believed that they wouldn't be disgraced if they weren't virgins until marriage, maybe they wouldn't have turned to such behavior.

And Armenia itself is changing, whether people like it or not. I'm not sure exactly why that is. Of course, a major part of it is probably the western influence as well as the Russian media. I'm sure that has a lot to do with the fact that Yerevan's high-end "supermarkets" are miniskirts galore (that's the standard uniform of their female sales clerks). I guess when you watch tv and see those Ukrainian "Virgra" girls making megabucks primarily because they look good and wear sexy lingerie, that makes you think that's what you need to be to attract male customers and men in general. For the same reason, employers there have no qualms putting in their ads that a girl needs to be "barekazm" to work for them as a waitress, while no similar requirement exists for men. See, Armenia is not Bhutan, where people have, to a great extent, managed to preserve their traditions, including the tradition that women don't really need to use sex to find/keep a man. It's also not the US. It's somewhere in between: similar to Taiwan or Singapore. Just look at the flight attendants of Singapore Airlines the next time you're at the airport, and see if they don't at all remind you of how much the female waitresses/cash clerks in Armenia use sex/sex appeal to get what they want out of life. Armenia, or Yerevan at least, is hardly a place where an impressionable young girl can feel that she doesn't need to be sexual to get ahead in life.

There coule be another reason that a couple of people have suggested to me. They say that many of the young people in Armenia (those now in their 20s) grew up in the early 90s, where there was little electricity and not a whole lot to eat besides pasta from Iran. As a result of this hardship, they now have a you-only-live-once attitude, so they've chosen to throw some of the traditional values out the window.

There's also the high ratio of young single women to young single men, which has made the former turn to non-traditional means to attract potential mates.

In short, Armenia no longer is a bastion of "good"/traditional sexual mores. Maybe you didn't see/hear this when you were in Armenia, but there are some things people there say sort of as anecdotes, but I'm sure there's truth to them. They joke about Armenian men having two women: one in Armenia, another one in Russia (again, not a good thing considering that HIV is a problem in Russia and most Armenian men still don't believe in condoms). They also joke about men from Iran coming to Armenia becaue it's "Europe" to them (i.e. sex is easier to get there), or at least because they want to go to a place where attending a strip club is acceptable. I myself never witnessed this because I never went to a dance club in Yerevan, but I've heard that girls at night clubs there dance provocatively in front of mirrors while boys are in the back watching them.

Maybe we just didn't see the same Armenia.

As far as being an 18 year old virgin, there are lots of people like that. If you really do feel strongly about the no-sex-before-marriage rule (which I respect but disagree with), you should be open about it. The problem is not the small number of people in the same situation; the problem is that people in that category are not open about it, which reinforces the view that that's not normal. I happen to think that 18 is too young for that. The right time for sex is when you're old enough to realize that your first time isn't going to be glamorous and will be more awkward than romantic; most 18 year olds are not mature to understand that. There's a very good scene about that in the movie "Kinsey"; the rest of the movie isn't good, but that scene shows that that sort of thing by no means comes naturally to a man.

P.S. I never said porn is the way to go....I was referring to regular Hollywood movies. I've never watched porn on my own. Pretty much the only time I saw it was when I was 10 and two very repressed and dumb adults (yes, who were virgins when they got married) were babysitting me.

I won't argue with you on the subject anymore. As long as you believe BOTH men and women have to remain virginal until marriage (in other words, no double standars), that's cool.

[Sako_Aper]

SanVal,


"In short, Armenia no longer is a bastion of "good"/traditional sexual mores. Maybe you didn't see/hear this when you were in Armenia,..."

I did see it, and it upsetted me, I was expecing to see in Armenian terms <<Լավ ախչիկ»» for once. I did see many, but I also saw many on the opposite end, which kind of evened everything out.

I saw a drunk Persian by Cascad with an Armenian girl in his hand walking around and saying obscene things about Armenian girls, the same type that was in his hand for money.

I heard stories of what foreign students from India, Arabic nations and Iran do.

I did notice many are wearing short skirts. I noticed they're dancing provocatively, because it is what they see on TV from Russia and the U.S, especially music videos of 50 Cent, Shakira and different Russian musicians. The music videos display dumb retards "rapping", about degrading women, how they did this hoe and that hoe, how they're rich, how they do drugs, crime, flash their jewelry all that is influencing Armenian culture. What they see is what they do.

"As long as you believe BOTH men and women have to remain virginal until marriage (in other words, no double standars), that's cool."

Absolutely that is what I believe. I was actually more angered that many women would stay virgins and be loyal to their future husband, but the husband was not a virgin and had multiple sex partners. It should be on both sides, not just the women.

I don't man, I think Armenia is losing it's culture. I bet the European Union is also influencing the loss of Armenia's culture. In an attempt to keep EU leaders happy, Armenia most likely cannot ban music from those such as 50 Cent. Have you heard their lyrics, it is actually sick and disgusting, I can't believe people like that stuff.

[Eva]

SanVal,




Absolutely that is what I believe. I was actually more angered that many women would stay virgins and be loyal to their future husband, but the husband was not a virgin and had multiple sex partners. It should be on both sides, not just the women.

[SAS]

Շատ էլ լավ ավանդույթ է: Եթե այդ ավանդույթը չլիներ, ճապոնացիները մինչև հիմա դրոշ չէին ունենալու...

[SanVal]

Here's an idea: maybe Armenia should swap flags with Japan, since the red spot seems to mean more to Armenians than to the Japanese.

[Arpa]

From Aghayan’s Արեգնազան
-----
Ահա՛ այս ժամանակն էր, որ Երկնքից իջավ
՝
ԵՐԵՔ ԽՆՁՈՐ

Արեգի ձայնը Երկինքը լսեց
Եվ իսկույն երեք խնձոր վայր գցեց.
Մեկը կանաչ էր այդ խնձորներից,
Կարծես նոր քաղած գարնան ոստերից.
Երկրորդը կարմիր վարդի հանգունակ[24],
Երրորդն սպիտակ՝ ձյունի նմանակ։
Նունուֆարն ասաց.— Արե՛գ, ի՞նչ կասես,
Այս խնձորները ինչո՞ւ են պեսպես.
— Չգիտեմ, հոգի՛ս, ճշմարիտն ասած.
Գուցե մեր կյանքն է ճիշտ օրինակված,
Տե՛ս, սա կանաչ է, իբր խակ մանուկ,
Իսկ այս՝ սպիտակ, ինչպես մի ծերուկ.
Ամենից սիրուն կարմիրն է միայն,
Դա՛ է նշանը մեր հասունության։
— Բե՛ր այդ կարմիրը հենց հիմա կտրենք,
Եվ այստեղ ևեթ միասին ուտենք…

Նունուֆարն ուզեց,
Արեգն էլ՝ կտրեց.

Կարմիր խնձորը միասին կերան,
Եվ իրանց սրտի փափագին հասան։
Ձեզ էլ կցանկամ, սիրո՛ւն պատանիք,
Որ մուրազներիդ նրանց պես հասնիք.
Կըխնդրեմ միայն, որ ինձ էլ ներեք,
Եթե պատմածս ձանձրալի գտնեք.
Ձեր սիրո համար ես աշխատեցի,
Պատմեցի այնքան, ինչքան կարացի.
Կարծելով, որ դուք սիրով կըկարդաք,
Եվ խեղճ շայիրիս[25] ողորմի կըտաք...

Edited by Arpa, 04 January 2010 - 02:37 PM.

[Nairian]

<!--quoteo(post=181493:date=Nov 10 2006, 10:38 PM:name=Harut)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harut @ Nov 10 2006, 10:38 PM) </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i didn't know that women are special species and require special rights... aren't we all supposed to have the same rights?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->



I hope you are joking. If not, I wish my female counterparts and I lived in that dream world of yours..... <img src="http://hyeforum.com/...IR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

Ditsuhi jan, do you really want to be completely equal with men? Do you want to have to open the door in front of a man, otherwise you'll be considered a jerk? Have to tell him compliments or he will get depressed and hesitant about his style? And if you really-really like him, you might have to call him again after he didn't return your call?
I know I'm oversimplifying things but on a broader scale, I personally haven't felt my rights being ignored because I'm a woman (knocking on wood! Three times!)

Edited by Nairian, 06 January 2010 - 01:19 AM.

[Em]

Ditsuhi jan, do you really want to be completely equal with men? Do you want to have to open the door in front of a man, otherwise you'll be considered a jerk? Have to tell him compliments or he will get depressed and hesitant about his style? And if you really-really like him, you might have to call him again after he didn't return your call?
I know I'm oversimplifying things but on a broader scale, I personally haven't felt my rights being ignored because I'm a woman (knocking on wood! Three times!)

Nairian jan, you found a really old thread. I didn't know Harut back then as I had only been on the forum a short while when that was posted. I didn't think his comment was funny in the least (nor the topic of the thread). Had he posted this lately, I may have taken a different approach in my response to him. Relative to equality, I think men and women are different so they cannot ever be equal. I like for men to be men and women to act like women. I just believe some "rights" are (or should be) common to all human beings regardless of one's gender.

Regarding the tradition, I think it is outdated and though still widely practiced in some Armenian communities, I think it's distasteful in this day and age. Especially in instances wherein the couple has "known" each other for many years.

This is not a very popular topic for obvious reasons. I shall refrain from elaborating.