42 replies to this topic

[bellthecat]

It would be really helpful if someone who speaks Turkish (Levonyeshilian/ThornyRose?)
could possibly translate the following newspaper article into English. It deals with the quarry the Armenians have set up directly opposite the ruins of Ani.
http://www.hurriyeti...rkiye/03tur.htm


http://www.hurriyeti...rkiye/03tur.htm

[Taguhi]

Dear Bellthecat,
I will try translate it but it will take a little time because I have exam in two days and now I don't have time to do it.I try to do it on friday or saturday.
Best regards Tagush

[bellthecat]

Thanks

[Taguhi]

Armenian,on border Ani,near Ani ruins Armenia made stone quarry.

Ani which is under protection at last is dangerously collapse under eart tremors.Cathedral from 967 and Church of Tigran Honest cracked and rocks become to fall down.
Ani is located on the border with Armenia near Kars and it stay under secret Armenian agression. Everyday explode Armenian dinamites wchich cause artificial earth quakes. Ani ruins from 9-10 century which are near Arpacay river are cracked from hundreds of dinamites.
Historical values which can't be Armenian are devastated. People from this region which is very restless because of hundreds of exloded dinamites said that Ani and they live among 3-5 earth quokes made by Armenian everyday.

Consist from Split
Ani ruins which are made by different civilization are located 45 km from Kars and they are under protection of Culture Ministry. Excavation and reconstruction goes on.150m from Arpacay river which trace out Armenian-Turkish border Armenia build stone quarry. Armenian "favourite" cathedra from 967 and Tigran Honest church from 1215 slowly decay. Made from big and shapely rocks churches become break up. With every dinamite explode some rocks fall down.

10 year continue
36 year old Mehmed Kara from Ocak village which is near Ani ruins during last 10 year live under explode dinamites. He said that Armenian stone quarry was located 1 km from Ani but they could see it from their village. Now it's closed more than ever. "3-5 time a day we can hear dinamites. Not only we but olso Esenkent 5 km from here, Arasoglu 4 km from here can hear it"
Sometimes there is earth quoke. Every family, children can feel it. Because of dinamites this historical monuments are destroyed.

We took it from Byzantium
Doc. Erol Kurcuoglu from Department of Turkish-Armenian relations of Ataturk University said that region Ani in 1064 was conquered by Alparslan. Ani during about 1000 years was related with turkish histry, culture and civilization. Alparslan didn't conquer Ani from Armenians but from Byzantium. Today in Ani dinamites explode. It's very embarrasing situation ant it's prove Armenian agression. Armenia try to change historical proofs but because now is hungry and poor can't do enything.

Ey Ani better you will be ruined than live under this opression
Ani from Sassanid Kings and the Muslims took possesion Armenian King Hairy Ohan. Hairy Ohan was very cruel king. For every reason he burnt,ruined and murdered people. In this time Ani which was rich and developed town became destroyed. Under the rules of Hairy Ohan every bride from town was brought to King and after one night with him was given back to her husband. Because of it life for muslims was very difficult and they didn't married their sons and dougters. One day one man Odabasoglu wanted to married his son with one girl from town. He think that he will find some solution and choose one girl for his son. He prepered nuptial chamber, lighted fire.prepered cakes,brought sheep with new-born lamb and put in the front of them fresh grass. In this time king heard about weding and waited for brinking him bride. Bacause girl did'nt come he was very ungry. He sent one man to Odabasoglu tent. Odabasoglu wanted to in exchange of bride give all his riches but it did'nt satisfy King.King order to hung Odabasoglu in the centre of town. In this moment Odabasoglu said "Ey Ani better you will be ruined than live under this oppresion" When he finished this words town colapsed.

Historical treasures
Remment of town which is in Valley of Arpacay are located 45 km from Kars and Turkish-Armenian border. Ani and especial fortess from middle ages as a town become very important. Town fell to Kamsarakan and then to Bagradit family. It became culture and economy center. In 1044 town which was sovereghtly Byzantian conquered Alparslan. Then it was Georgian (1124) and Mongol (1239). In 1319 after earth queke it's importance finished. After Prof. Marr excavation (1892-1893) fixed that histry of Ani reach Bronze age.Prof Balkan during excavation (1965-67) in Ani wchich we can see Syrian, Persian, Arab and Turkish influence the most interesting exemple of Bagradit architecture is Basilic and build on greek cross Cathedral (989-1001). Mosaic designs of Ebulmammeran Mosque (1195), Menucehr Mosque (11c.) and Kervanseray (12c.) show their connexion with Selcuk arts.

UNESCO matter
Armenian stone quarry with it's explode dinamites should be stop. 25.04.2001 UNESCO sent to Turkish Ministry petition in which they wanted to starting reconstruction. It have been done since 1995 by Baran Building Turizm Enterprice and Commercial Ltd. by archtect Mehmet Tuvel. In petition from May 1999 was taken up the problem of explode dinamites and destruction of Ani. On 27.05.1999 Culture Ministry through Ministry of Foreingh Affairs ones more tried to solve this problem. In petition said that from beggining of Dinamites explode till today with cathedra, colored church and city-wall olso first in Anatolia turkish muslim temple Menucahr Mosque and it's minarets split.
This universal and unknow culture value
can be world heritage but now it's impossible because of a lot of question between Turkey and Armenia. This situation must be stoped. Near so special monuments with dinamites stones are broken.
Until Millenium of Ani in Paris it was't know.

Make similar
Naif Ahbeyoglu from ANAP party who is a chief of Kars Provincial Office said that in Ani should be showe owner of this culture heritage. "building Ani in 987 starded King Smbat".Ahbeyoglu saw the photo of cathedra which was build years ago in 1010 by King Gagig and said "yesterday we found treasure and now they showed. Ani is for Armenian like Kaaba. They starded to build church in Gumri similar to ani cathedra. I thing that they take away stones from here and carry it there, If the border with Armenia will be open this abscure quarrel will grow stronger."

Nation heritage
Dr Enver Konukcu from Sciente-Literature History Departmant of Ataturk University said "those churches are not only Armenian, there are olso Georgian. Turkish goverment should take away what was in histry.

[Taguhi]

Sorry if there are some mistakes. I don't use English offen and because of it I make mistakes.

[bellthecat]

Thank's Taguhi, that was really helpful, I can tidy up the English.

The bit about the explosions is all true - when one went off, I was inside the Tigran Honentz church, and I ran out of the building because it started to shake, with dust falling from the ceiling.

Steve

[Taguhi]

I heard from my teacher from Universty that there was Turkish millitaru zone and they din't aloved any one to come in. They did't want even archeologist there. Of course archeologist from other country. I thing that goverment don't make any reconstruction.
When I see the pictures of Ani made years ago and now there is no change. Beside of it
there is a lot great Armenian monuments in Anatolia and they are slowly destroyed. A lot of churches became to be mosque or even if they din't there are no crosses on them.
I read some turkish books about monuments of Anatolia and Ani. They say of cours that it was build by Gagig I or other king but they never write that it was Armenian king and that Ani was one of capitols of Armenia.
They want Armenian tradition and histry of this region to be forgotten.

[bellthecat]

Taguhi, see this website for more information on Ani:
www.virtualani.freeserve.co.uk

There are French archeologists working at Ani, as part of a Turkish team (or rather they were there in 1999 and 2000 - but I think they have had their permits cancelled for 2001 because of the French goverment's decision to recognise the genocide).

Steve

[bellthecat]

I have corrected some of the English translation, but a lot of it is still a bit unclear, and some words seem to be missed out. Taguhi, or someone, could you perhaps have another go at the problem bits.
I have indicated the problem bits in two ways: < > and <? ?>
The first means < a comment by me on that part of the text>
The second means <? the meaning of the enclosed translated text is not clear ?>


< is Taliban Kafasi the name of the writer >

At the border, near the Ani ruins, Armenia has made a stone quarry.

<? Ani which is under protection at last is because of Armenian explosions in danger of collapse due to earth tremors. ?> The Cathedral, dating from 967 and the Church of Tigran Honents, from 1215, have been cracked and masonry has started to fall down.

Ani is located on the border with Armenia near Kars <? and it stay under secret Armenian aggression. ?> Everyday the Armenians explode dynamite which causes artificial earthquakes. The Ani ruins, which date from the 9th and 10th century and which are near the Arpacay river, are cracked from hundreds of dynamite explosions. < text seems to be missing >
<? Historical values which can't be Armenian are devastated. ?> People from this region are angry because of the hundreds of explosions, and said that both they and Ani have to live amongst 3 to 5 earth tremors made by the Armenians everyday.

Creating Cracks

The Ani ruins, which are created by different civilizations, are located 45 km from Kars, and are under the protection of the Ministry of Culture. Excavation and reconstruction goes on. < Some text seems to be missing here > 150 metres from the Arpacay river, which marks the Turkish -Armenian border, Armenia has created a stone quarry. The Armenian "favourite" the cathedral constructed from 967 and the Tigran Honentz church from 1215 slowly decay. Made from large and well cut stones, the churches are becoming broken up. With each dynamite explosion more masonry fall down.

It has been going on for 10 years

36 year old Mehmed Kara, from Ocakli village which is near the Ani ruins, has for the last 10 years lived with these dynamite explosions. He said that the Armenian stone quarry was formerly located 1 km from Ani and they could see it from their village. Now it's much closer than before. "3 to 5 time a day we can hear the dynamite explosions. Not only us, but Esenkent village, 5 km from here, and Arasoglu village, 4 km from here, can also hear it"
Sometimes the earth shakes. <? sentence about “house windows” is missing > All the family can feel it. Because of this dynamiting these historical monuments are being destroyed.

We captured it from Byzantium

Dr. Erol Kurcuoglu from the Department of Turkish-Armenian relations at Ataturk University said that in 1064 the region of Ani was conquered by Alparslan. “Ani for about 1000 years was connected to Turkish history, culture and civilization. Alparslan didn't conquer Ani from the Armenians but from Byzantium. <? Today in Ani dynamite explodes. It's a very embarrassing situation and it proves Armenian aggression. Armenia try to change historical proofs but because now is hungry and poor can't do anything” he said. ?>

Oh, Ani better you will be ruined than live under this oppression

< first sentence seems to be missing > <? Ani from Sassanid Kings and the Muslims took possession Armenian King Hairy Ohan >. Hairy Ohan was very cruel king. For every reason he burnt, ruined and murdered people. During this time Ani, which was a rich and developed town, became destroyed. Under the order of Hairy Ohan every bride from the town was brought to the King and after one night with him was given back to her husband. Because of this, life for Muslims was very difficult and they didn't want their sons and daughters to become married. One day a man called Odabasoglu wanted his son married to a girl from the town. He thought that he would find some solution and chose a girl for his son. He prepared the nuptial chamber, lit the fire, prepared cakes, brought sheep with new-born lambs and placed in front of them fresh grass. At this time the king heard about the wedding and waited for the bride to be brought to him. Because the girl didn’t come he became very angry. He sent a man to Odabasoglu’s tent. Odabasoglu wanted to give all his riches in exchange for the bride, but that didn’t satisfy the King. The King ordered Odabasoglu to be hung in the centre of the town. At that moment Odabasoglu said "Oh, Ani better you should be ruined than live under this oppression". When he finished his words the town collapsed.

Historical Treasures

The remains of this town, which is in the Arpacay valley, are located 45 km from Kars and are right on the Turkish-Armenian border. Ani, characteristic fortress from middle ages as a town become very important. The town fell to the Kamsarakan and then to the Bagradit family. It became a centre of culture and trade. <some text is missing here> In 1044 the town, which was under Byzantine soverency, was conquered by Alparslan. Then it was under Georgian rule (1124) and then Mongol rule (1239). In 1319, after an earthquake, its importance ended. < I don't think the next sentence is right > After Prof. Marr’s excavations (1892-1893), Prof. Balkan during excavations (1965-67) revealed that the history of Ani went back to the Bronze age. In Ani which we can see Syrian, Persian, Arab and Turkish influences. The most interesting example of Bagratid architecture is the great Cathedral (989-1001) - a basilica build to a Greek cross plan. The mosaic designs of the Ebulmammeran Mosque (1195), Menucehr Mosque (11c.) and Kervanseray (12c.) show their connection with Selcuk art.

A UNESCO Matter

< some of this section seem to be a bit altered >
The Armenian stone quarry with its dynamite explosions should be stopped. On the 25.04.2001 UNESCO sent to the Turkish Ministry a petition in which they wanted to starting reconstruction. This have been done since 1995 by Baran Building Turizm Enterprise and Commercial Ltd., by architect Mehmet Tuvel. In a petition from May 1999 was taken up the problem of the dynamite explosions and the destruction of Ani. On 27.05.1999 the Ministry of Culture via the Ministry of Foreign Affairs once more tried to solve this problem. A petition stated that from the start of the dynamite explosions till today with Cathedral, Tigran Honents church (Boyali Kilise) and city-wall, and the Menucahr Mosque the first Turkish Muslim mosqque in Anatolia and it's minaret split.

<? Aims ?>

< a lot seems to be missed out from this paragraph >
This universal and priceless culture value could be a world heritage site but now it's impossible because of a lot of question between Turkey and Armenia. This situation must be ended. <? Near so special monuments with dynamites stones are broken. ?>
<? Until the Millenium of Ani exhibition in Paris it wasn’t know. ?>

<? Make similar ?>

The head of the Kars municipal council,ANAP party member Naif Ahbeyoglu, said that <? in Ani should be showe owner of this culture heritage. The king of Ani, Smbat, building Ani in 987 started. Ahbeyoglu saw the photo of a cathedral which was build years ago in 1010 by King Gagik and said "yesterday we found treasure and now they showed. ?> Ani is like a holy shrine for Armenians. They have started to build a church in Gumri similar to the Ani cathedral. I think that they take away stones from here and carry it to there. <? If the border with Armenia will be open this obscure quarrel will grow stronger." ?>

National Heritage

Prof. Dr. Enver Konukcu, head of the History Department at the Science-Literature faculty of Ataturk University said "those churches are not only Armenian. There are also Georgian churches there. <? Turkish government should take away stone dynamiting what was in history”. ?>

[Taguhi]

I'm sorry if there is some mistakes in my translation. I tried to do my best. Firts of all my English is not so good. Second Turkish is not my native language. I learned it years ago but now I don't use it and forgot a little bit. Then from one turkish sentence you can do two or three English sentences. I know one Turk form Bulgaria. When he try to translade some Turkish text he olway said that Turkish sentence are horrible long and sometimes you can't understand anything from them. I asked for his help with this text about Ani. Belive me we tried to do our best.

[Taguhi]

I don't thing that Taliban Kafasi is the author name.
Taliban-Talib means student in Redhouse dictionary.
Kafa mean mentality, skul,head,intelligence or mind.
Taliban Kafasi can mean mentality of students.

[bellthecat]

And I'm sorry if it sounded as if I was complaining too much, and the translation, as it is, is much much better than anything I could have done!

Steve

[levonyeshilian]

1)Taliban are those morons in Afghanistan destroying Budha statues.Taliban Kafasi means 'Taliban headed or Armenians have the mentality of Taleban'

[bellthecat]

Ouch, They do know how to stick the knife in, don't they - but when Armenia hands then that knife, and helpfully points to where it should be stuck, then the insult is 100% justified.

Steve

[ThornyRose]

Guys, I am so sorry I hadn't paid attention to this thread. The moment I saw "Turkish to English" translation, I shunned it. Some people had such requests for me and I had some for myself, but it is tedious translating backwards, ehehehe.
Overall, Taguhi has done a fine translation and we do get the main idea. Why and when didd you learn Turkish, Taguhi?
I had heard about the quarry before but had thought it wasn't that serious. So, it is that serious, Steve? I suppose there is something Armenians have to do and think then, as well. I know that if you do not want to harm structures such as villages, you have to keep all quarries and mines at least five kilometers away - I might be mistaken - could be even eight. And such fragile structures - tsk tsk tsk.
What is sad is the way they try to say it is not Armenian - at least some. I have seen a photo of an inscription from Ani, and it was written in Armenian. I think I can tell Georgian and Armenian letters apart when I see them.
I haven't been there but I tried to go to Kars last year. However, I wasn't sure it would be a good idea/fun on my own. I think I might try again this year. I intend to go with this youth organization. It's the only way, for me.
My uncle has been there and he confirmed its state and that the sign said there was no mention of Armenians on it.

[ThornyRose]

Steve, man, I'm sure I'm a lot more curious than anyone else in this forum as to what the dickens you're doing here so often. :))))))
Just one question, and I hope you don't mind: how old are you? Definitely over, say 35, right?

[bellthecat]

The quarry is bad, very bad, - not just because of the physical and environmental damage it has caused, but because of the way Armenia has tried to hush up their deed.

Armenia complained about Turkey raising the matter with UNESCO, saying it should just be an internal matter between Turkey and Armenia. But it IS is a matter of international cultural standards. And Armenians have been complaining for years that UNESCO and similar international bodies should get involved in pressuring Turkey to preserve Armenian monuments in Turkey (where many have been deliberately destroyed). By their actions over this quarry - Armenia has lost all credibility.

Yep, I am into my thirties - but look about 25 , which means I look about 20 by Turkish standards - they (turkish men) seem to go downhill rather rapidly, do you agree? - too much smoking and no exercise perhaps?

But please, Filiz - don't define someone by age, after all, only a generation ago, you would have been defined by your sex - and I get the feeling you would not have liked that one bit.

I'm equally curious about what you are doing here - taking the risk of being amongst people who might hate you just because you are Turkish (though there do not seem to be many like that here). But I'm worried that you might ultimately be a bit bruised and hurt by the experience.

Steve

PS - I am certain you would like Kars - you must go some time, it is a nice place and it is perfectly safe to go there alone. If you are interested in things Armenian, try to be in Kayseri next Friday morning to see interesting things.

[ThornyRose]

I didn't know that... And it is equally wrong of Armenia to say it should be an internal matter - "sounds like something Turkey might say"...

quote[quote]Yep, I am into my thirties     And they say you are free when you are a student.

[ June 02, 2001: Message edited by: Thorny Rose ]

[bellthecat]

Thorny, the "interesting thing" in Kayseri on Friday is a service to mark the 1700th anniversary of the conversion of Armenia to Christianity that will take place in the Armenian church in Kayseri.

There will be several hundred people there, many from Istanbul, and also about 150 American Armenians. I might make a visit - but I'll need to travel all the way from Istanbul to Kayseri on the Thursday.

You can see pictures of the church here:
www.virtualani.freeserve.co.uk/kayseri/kayseri.htm

Steve

[ThornyRose]

Steve, I'm not religious, you know. Not at all. In fact, I am an atheist.
But I feel sad when I see and hear such.. Just like when I go to Altınoluk during the summers and pass by Greek structures which are no longer regarded with the same value, by the same people. That there are no longer enough people to carry on their traditions is sad in itself and something we know of.
I also took a look at the Aprank Monastery stuff next page.
It's like those ruins you have all over Anatolia - except those ruins came about with time, after wars, earthquakes, etc. These were forced. And we are trying to be told otherwise.
I was not in the mood this morning to think about these kinds of things, but I felt sad, really sad. I wonder what these people feel. I have speculated on it before on TACT... Linked via Middle East Forum...
It's like when I feel when I look at my mother going over her antique family stuff, brought all the way from the Caucasus, handed down generation through generation. These pieces were created somewhere, by some people. It is natural for these people to live and then die. But they are not being enjoyed by their descendents who would have known no "homesickness" (my mother - or someone entirely different)...
So it is with these churches and all. All those hands that once touched the altar, perhaps... And now nothing is left.
It is such a great shame.